Sweden avoiding lockdown

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Can you define due to covid? When something happens due to, you would expect that due to is the main cause of something occurring.

I dont believe 5280 died in Sweden this year from covid. I believe most died because they had underlying conditions, had no immune system unfortunately and were very old. They died with covid. Majority in nursing homes. Just like in Ireland.

I dont want to entertain the last 3 months statistics, thats as short term as it gets. We need 1 year of data to see if covid has caused any excess mortality. Looking at 3 months of data is a bit like if deaths are lower in last 3 months of this year than monthly average for 2019 - will you be able to say why? Same logic.

Logic
Your answer to the first question has all the logic of a person with high blood pressure being blown out to sea and drowning having their demise recorded as being due to high blood pressure.
If you are looking for a definition I would suggest you contact that institution you were such a champion off, The Public Agency of Sweden. They are in no doubt.


The answer to the second question, (cutting through the usual waffle), is you have no other plausible explanation for the increase in Swedish deaths over the last three month other than Covid-19.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Logic
Your answer to the first question has all the logic of a person with high blood pressure being blown out to sea and drowning having their demise recorded as being due to high blood pressure.
If you are looking for a definition I would suggest you contact that institution you were such a champion off, The Public Agency of Sweden. They are in no doubt.


The answer to the second question, (cutting through the usual waffle), is you have no other plausible explanation for the increase in Swedish deaths over the last three month other than Covid-19.

You keep rambling on about person with high blood pressure drowning. Are you okay? I am actually concerned for you.

You think covid kills people and not cancer? Not heart disease? Not old age of 85? Wow, no wonder you are so critical of Swedish model.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You keep rambling on about person with high blood pressure drowning. Are you okay? I am actually concerned for you.

You think covid kills people and not cancer? Not heart disease? Not old age of 85? Wow, no wonder you are so critical of Swedish model.

If there is one think you have proven on this thread, it is the quote: "There are none so blind as those who will not see".


Here you are, still rambling on about the cause of death, as of day 5310 people who have passed, where The Public Health Agency of Sweden, (which you have been such a cheerleader for), has no problem stating.
Quite bizarre.

bb1234567

Well Sweden's 7 day average deaths are down to just 7 a day now. Well in line with every other European country that locked down. Seems as though they may have been right with their policy after all really. Yes the deaths are a bit higher, but it's the equivalent of us having 2630 deaths. Hardly a shocking difference from our 1730 especially considering the economic benefits

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

If there is one think you have proven on this thread, it is the quote: "There are none so blind as those who will not see".


Here you are, still rambling on about the cause of death, as of day 5310 people who have passed, where The Public Health Agency of Sweden, (which you have been such a cheerleader for), has no problem stating.
Quite bizarre.

What was the definition of irony again?... oh yes...

Morrisp

bb1234567 wrote: »

Well Sweden's 7 day average deaths are down to just 7 a day now. Well in line with every other European country that locked down. Seems as though they may have been right with their policy after all really. Yes the deaths are a bit higher, but it's the equivalent of us having 2630 deaths. Hardly a shocking difference from our 1730 especially considering the economic benefits

That means 900 more people died .you put price on lives these people ?

cnocbui

Morrisp wrote: »

That means 900 more people died .you put price on lives these people ?

Do you?

If cancer diagnoses and treatment do not return there will be ‘a second wave of Covid-19 related deaths in Ireland’, the leading cancer society has warned.

The Irish Cancer Society said services must be prioritised ‘to ensure that we do not see lives needlessly lost to cancer’.

‘Unless normal patterns of cancer diagnosis and treatment return soon, there is a serious risk that delayed diagnoses and treatment backlogs will lead to a second wave of Covid-19 related deaths in Ireland,’ the society’s CEO Averil Power told the Daily Mail yesterday.

bb1234567

Morrisp wrote: »

That means 900 more people died .you put price on lives these people ?

I mean, 900 extra in a typical 32,000 death year, do you think it's worth destroying the economy for years over?
Do you think car travel is worth 25,000 European lives annually? Do you think car travel should be banned? That many lives is of course not worth simply being able to travel more quickly between two destinations. But then again we as a society are not banning car travel, therefore we do in some way accept this very large number of deaths for a more comofrtable form of transport than train , horse, boat.. There are certain things that we as a society have deemed worthy of sacrifice of many lives in order to maintain comfort and leisure for the great majority. It sounds cold and harsh but it's the way that it is and has always been

Shaunoc

A quick check on rip.se will resolve this

Breezin

bb1234567 wrote: »

I mean, 900 extra in a typical 32,000 death year, do you think it's worth destroying the economy for years over?
Do you think car travel is worth 25,000 European lives annually? Do you think car travel should be banned? That many lives is of course not worth simply being able to travel more quickly between two destinations. But then again we as a society are not banning car travel, therefore we do in some way accept this very large number of deaths for a more comofrtable form of transport than train , horse, boat.. There are certain things that we as a society have deemed worthy of sacrifice of many lives in order to maintain comfort and leisure for the great majority. It sounds cold and harsh but it's the way that it is and has always been

Agreed. Except It's neither cold nor harsh. It's facing reality. All the empty emoting that we get on this thread isn't going to change it.

JimmyVik

cnocbui wrote: »

Quality over quantity.

As my granny says. Self praise is no praise

JimmyVik

Breezin wrote: »

I've been off this thread for a little bit. Judging by this post, its quality seems to have dipped even lower than the breathless reporting of daily stats, ignoring long term trends, and selective filtering of any qualifying evidence.

If it's name-calling you want -- apart from distortion, since I don't recall Sweden being characterised as superstars -- why do you need anything other than Facebook? Just go there and don't actually argue your case, because you aren't doing it in that post.

ah. now its exaclty like facebook.

biko

bb1234567 wrote: »

I mean, 900 extra in a typical 32,000 death year, do you think it's worth destroying the economy for years over?

Someone was asked this very question

https://streamable.com/itxeka

dubrov

WE can save many more lives from other diseases like the flu if we keep the lockdown going indefinitely

biko

People tend to be less careful when it comes to other's lives.

the incredible pudding

biko wrote: »

Swedes during a current pandemic

https://twitter.com/Coronapandemina/status/1276580600288247808

So there was an accident a few days ago on the green metro line (which is my one) where the heat caused the train to go off the tracks (noone hurt to my knowledge), that bus is a temporary replacement for the green line (the message on the dashboard says 'replacement green line'. Buses have been closing their doors/declaring themsleves full when at half capacity currently - strangers aren't allowed to sit next to each other. It's still not good but I think the sensationalisation doesn't help your argument.

AdamD

biko wrote: »

Someone was asked this very question

https://streamable.com/itxeka

The issue here is that destroying the economy will also cost lives. So its not an honest question.

charlie14

Shaunoc wrote: »

A quick check on rip.se will resolve this

Both Limerick and Maynooth Universities did that for the month of April, and found that compared to the previous year deaths for Dublin, Monaghan and Cavan had doubled. Many other counties had increased deaths of 50% and more.
April was really before lockdown took effect so without it it is anybody`s quess what the figure to date could have been.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

What was the definition of irony again?... oh yes...

Very cryptic post.
Would you care to elaborate ?

charlie14

bb1234567 wrote: »

Well Sweden's 7 day average deaths are down to just 7 a day now. Well in line with every other European country that locked down. Seems as though they may have been right with their policy after all really. Yes the deaths are a bit higher, but it's the equivalent of us having 2630 deaths. Hardly a shocking difference from our 1730 especially considering the economic benefits

It is difficult to know lately just what the actual daily deaths from Covid-19 are in Sweden.

Last week there were days as far as I recall where there were large numbers on Wordometers but they do not seem to be there now. The overall number is the same, so it looks as if some have been added to days further back.

bb1234567

biko wrote: »

Someone was asked this very question

https://streamable.com/itxeka

Right, but where do you draw the line because a line does have to be drawn somewhere. Why are we okay with 500,000 dying from flu annually? Many of those deaths too could be prevented through face mask usage etc, but obviously the vast majority of people in Europe are not prepared to wear face masks daily or disinfect hands regularly at all during winter in order to minimise flu deaths. Is this not a strange contradiction?

I'm not saying we shouldnt have had a lockdown, or that we shouldn't continue to modify certain aspects of our lifestyles in order to prevent the chance of further outbreaks, but it should no longer be at any great detriment to the economy, or healthcare system, education system etc. The obsession with minimising covid deaths over deaths from any other cause and at great expense to all other aspects of quality of life is just getting a bit odd at this stage I would say

charlie14

AdamD wrote: »

The issue here is that destroying the economy will also cost lives. So its not an honest question.

I can see your point, but every time I see similar reminds me of the banking crisis.
During that period our GDP contracted by 25% and unemployment figures were off the scale. Saving the banks according to Eurostat cost the Irish taxpayer 41 Billion euro and that did not include the 15 Billion from the National Pension Fund.
I know many may not see it as I do, but for me the present situation compared to what it cost just to save banks puts it in perspective for me

biko

68451 official cases
5333 officially dead
8% of known cases have passed

Numbers from FHMs own tracking page
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa[/QUOTE]

cnocbui

biko wrote: »

68451 official cases
5333 officially dead
8% of known cases have passed

Numbers from FHMs own tracking page
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

Ireland has had one death per 14.6 cases, Sweden has had one per 12.8 cases.

Australia has had one death per 74.6 cases. Do you suppose there is a forum in Australia where there are posters in histrionics about how appalling Ireland's response has been and how shoddy the standard of their health care must be there to be 5.1 times worse than Australia? Sweden is only 10% worse than Ireland, not 510 %.

JimmyVik

cnocbui wrote: »

Ireland has had one death per 14.6 cases, Sweden has had one per 12.8 cases.

Australia has had one death per 74.6 cases. Do you suppose there is a forum in Australia where there are posters in histrionics about how appalling Ireland's response has been and how shoddy the standard of their health care must be there to be 5.1 times worse than Australia? Sweden is only 10% worse than Ireland, not 510 %.

Ah. Moving the goal posts again I see.
Next you'll be throwing out comparisons on deaths that happened during a full moon.


To be serious though for a second. Exactly how accurate do you think no of cases is? Anywhere. I would imagine that metric is so wildy off the actual real number of cases that there is no point using that between countries for comparison.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

Can I interest you in a map? A personality, perhaps?

Can I interest you in not weaponising your own ignorance?


The very next day you post about confirmed positive cases as if that metric is used by scientists & public health experts in comparing different countries and the efficacy of their responses.


Twice in two days you've used your own ignorance and lack of knowledge as 'proof' of something, which is...well, emblematic of your postings on this thread thus far - particularly given I've caught you posting a link to an article before and then being disingenuous about it's contents.

biko

cnocbui wrote: »

Ireland has had one death per 14.6 cases, Sweden has had one per 12.8 cases.

Can you link to your source please so I can check? Usually deaths are counted per 100K or entire population.

If we compare Sweden to other similar sized countries, like I did in this thread 16th May

Greece 160 -> 191
Czech Republic 295 -> 348
Portugal 1200 -> 1564
Sweden 3600 -> 5333
Belgium 8959 -> 9732

So in 6 weeks Belgium, the over-counter, has added 800 deaths.
Sweden, the under-counter, has added 1700 deaths.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1093256/novel-coronavirus-2019ncov-deaths-worldwide-by-country/

cnocbui

JimmyVik wrote: »

Ah. Moving the goal posts again I see.
Next you'll be throwing out comparisons on deaths that happened during a full moon.


To be serious though for a second. Exactly how accurate do you think no of cases is? Anywhere. I would imagine that metric is so wildy off the actual real number of cases that there is no point using that between countries for comparison.

Well in the US they reckon that there are at least 10 more cases for each positive test. That's probably as good an assumption to go with as any.

It's not moving the goal posts, it's using an alternative perspective. I'd be more than happy to play the part of a completely deranged Ausie, ranting about how useless and incompetent Ireland's response has been, using any metric you want, such as the common deaths per million of pop.

I think the virus can out last our best efforts to extinguish it and that catastrophic economic collapse and mass suffering and even more deaths awaits most countries that pursue that goal. 5 years from now, I think almost all countries will look back and realise they became Sweden.

biko

AdamD wrote: »

The issue here is that destroying the economy will also cost lives. So its not an honest question.

I agree it will cause problems with the economy.
However, there are no indications so far Sweden will come out a winner because of them avoiding lockdown.

These are quite recent, if you have any sources saying otherwise I'd like to read them.
Of course, anything can happen in the next months.

Sweden unlikely to feel economic benefit of no-lockdown approach
Coronavirus: Sweden's economy plunging despite refusal to lockdown
Sweden didn't lock down during pandemic, but its economy still looks set to plunge

https://www.ft.com/content/93105160-dcb4-4721-9e58-a7b262cd4b6e
https://www.thelocal.se/20200607/coronavirus-swedens-economy-plunging-despite-refusal-to-lockdown
https://www.thejournal.ie/sweden-coronavirus-response-impact-on-economy-5116856-Jun2020/

cnocbui

biko wrote: »

Can you link to your source please so I can check? Usually deaths are counted per 100K or entire population.

If we compare Sweden to other similar sized countries, like I did in this thread 16th May

Greece 160 -> 191
Czech Republic 295 -> 348
Portugal 1200 -> 1564
Sweden 3600 -> 5333
Belgium 8959 -> 9732

So in 6 weeks Belgium, the over-counter, has added 800 deaths.
Sweden, the under-counter, has added 1700 deaths.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1093256/novel-coronavirus-2019ncov-deaths-worldwide-by-country/

I calculated it from the figures you provided and the ones published here: https://virusncov.com/

Deaths per 100,000 of pop is more a measure of the scale of the epidemic in a particular country, whereas deaths per caseload I would view as an indicator of the performance of the health system. A different perspective.