Sweden avoiding lockdown

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

People generally don't want to acknowledge anything that would reduce the level of drama, such as facing up to obvious realities.

No doubt we will see a rebuttal along the lines of Old Lives Matter.

Nothing do do with drama. Figures don`t lie. Even if some wished they did.

bb1234567

I'm not trying to create drama, TobeFrank said that COVID is only affecting those who would die soon anyway. This may apply to Europe perhaps because their populations are healthier ,I don't know, but it is a patently false statement to make regarding outbreaks in much of the rest of the world. Something which only kills elderly people who would die this year anyway does not kill 20,000 Brazilians under 60 in 3 months, there may be a myriad of reasons why this is the case and why younger people in Europe are fairing much better against the disease, but regardless it is a fact that COVID is a major cause of death of middle aged people in many parts of the world currently.

tobefrank321

bb1234567 wrote: »

I'm not trying to create drama, TobeFrank said that COVID is only affecting those who would die soon anyway. This may apply to Europe perhaps because their populations are healthier ,I don't know, but it is a patently false statement to make regarding outbreaks in much of the rest of the world. Something which only kills elderly people who would die this year anyway does not kill 20,000 Brazilians under 60 in 3 months, there may be a myriad of reasons why this is the case and why younger people in Europe are fairing much better against the disease, but regardless it is a fact that COVID is a major cause of death of middle aged people in many parts of the world currently.

I didn't say it would only affect those who would die anyways. I said in many cases it affects those who would die anyways. There's a difference.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

That HIQA report is speculation. They based it on data from RIP.ie but neglected to say that for the month of April research by the University of Maynooth and Limerick University using the same site showed that for April three counties worst effected by Covid-19, deaths were double with many others showing increases of 50% and more.
HIQA probably feel they need to take a cut at the HSE for laying blame on them for nursing home deaths.


I don`t get this weak heart or such should be regarded as the cause of death. If the death cert says Covid-19 then why is it not a Covid-19 death.
If somebody had high blood pressure and was swept out to sea and drown, the cause of death is not going to be recorded as due to high blood pressure.

If someone dies of terminal cancer but also had covid 19, what did they die of?

There were excess deaths, there just wasn't the number of excess deaths equivalent to the number of covid 19 deaths.

You're selecting rip.ie figures when it suits your argument but discounting them when it doesn't. Odd.

biko

”Sweden's decision to carry on in the face of the pandemic led to thousands of more people dying than in neighboring countries — and didn't spare its economy, either. “They literally gained nothing,” one researcher said”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

biko

First Sweden wouldn't get the virus
Then it would not spread much
Then old people would be protected while young developed immunity
Now it's a coincidence..
5400 dead later...

The large corona spread in Sweden was due to a "coincidence", says Director General of the Public Health Authority Johan Carlson. Therefore, we should not compare ourselves with the Nordic countries.

- If you have not had this inflow that we have had, then the Nordic region is not our object of comparison, says Carlson.

https://www.svd.se/carlson-coronadrabbat-sverige-var-en-slump

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

If someone dies of terminal cancer but also had covid 19, what did they die of?

There were excess deaths, there just wasn't the number of excess deaths equivalent to the number of covid 19 deaths.

You're selecting rip.ie figures when it suits your argument but discounting them when it doesn't. Odd.

I`m not selecting figures where it suits.
I have seen the research from from Maynooth all I`ve seen or heard from HIQA is a vague 25% less deaths than the HSE figure.
If it is true, then great.
It means there were less deaths from Covid-19 and if people still wish to compare Ireland and Sweden on the basis of lockdown it shows how well lockdown worked in saving lives where we would have half Sweden`s deaths.


Incidentally,there are more excess deaths in Sweden than the total for Covid-19 deaths.
If HIQA say we are over-counting based on RIP.ie, then does that not mean Sweden is under-counting based on Sweden`s deaths ?
It would be selective to suit your arguement to say it doesn`t would it not?

In any death there can be underlying conditions, and we know that those with underlying conditions are must vulnerable. Ultimately it is the call of doctor or pathologist as to the cause of death.

biko

tobefrank321 wrote: »

If someone dies of terminal cancer but also had covid 19, what did they die of?

In Sweden they'd be counted as a cancer death.
In Belgium they'd be counted as a Corona death.

Goldengirl

tobefrank321 wrote: »

If someone dies of terminal cancer but also had covid 19, what did they die of?

There were excess deaths, there just wasn't the number of excess deaths equivalent to the number of covid 19 deaths.

You're selecting rip.ie figures when it suits your argument but discounting them when it doesn't. Odd.

Many people with cancer or other underlying illnesses don't die at all , or can live for years.
I think the certifying doctors are intelligent and qualified enough to know whether their patient died of Covid pneumonia or other related Covid complications , or of their original illnesses .
It is generally accepted until proven otherwise that the HIQA / RIP.ie study indicates that some of the deaths ( approx 637 , I believe ) that occurred due to Covid may have been people who would probably have died as they were quite ill, but there were also 1200 who probably wouldn't have ,
Also I agree with Charlie 14 , HIQA are trying to find any reason to minimise the nursing home deaths for which the HSE are blaming them .

JimmyVik

Dont forget an awful lot of people who would have otherwise got it and maybe died from it or have been helped along by it if they had another disease that killed them, didnt get the flu or other illnesses this year because of lockdown too.
This will have to be factored into the equations when the dust settles as well.

Lemsip sales are down

the incredible pudding

biko wrote: »

In Sweden they'd be counted as a cancer death.
In Belgium they'd be counted as a Corona death.

That is not correct, in both cases they're counted as a Corona death.

biko

the incredible pudding wrote: »

That is not correct, in both cases they're counted as a Corona death.

What makes you believe that?

the incredible pudding

biko wrote: »

What makes you believe that?

Why do you think it otherwise?

https://www.thelocal.se/20200414/understanding-swedens-figures-on-the-coronavirus

"The statistics show the number of people in Sweden who have died with Covid-19. That's everyone who has died after testing positive for the virus; it doesn't mean that the virus itself was a cause of death for all these cases."

It also means if you recover from the virus and then die shortly afterwards it would be counted.

Loafing Oaf

JimmyVik wrote: »

Dont forget an awful lot of people who would have otherwise got it and maybe died from it or have been helped along by it if they had another disease that killed them, didnt get the flu or other illnesses this year because of lockdown too.

Would there have been 'an awful lot' of people dying of the flu in March-May under normal circumstances?

biko

the incredible pudding wrote: »

Why do you think it otherwise?

Because Sweden only tested for COVID if you had symptoms, and then changed even that

Sweden has changed the approach it's taking to coronavirus tests, meaning the majority of people with symptoms will no longer be tested.

https://www.thelocal.se/20200320/fact-check-has-sweden-stopped-testing-people-for-the-coronavirus

biko

Finnish Public Service about the Swedish strategy:

"Morphine has accelerated deaths in elderly coronary patients in Sweden"
Nurse Sonja Aspinen talks about her shocking experiences
Aspinen believes that most of the deaths of the elderly could have been avoided.

Respiratory paralytic morphine has been prescribed in elderly patients with coronavirus disease in Sweden.
In addition, they have not been given supplemental oxygen.

Doctors have routinely made decisions about switching to end-of-life medication.
These decisions have been made without even seeing the patient.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11433976

the incredible pudding

biko wrote: »

Because Sweden only tested for COVID if you had symptoms, and then changed even that

https://www.thelocal.se/20200320/fact-check-has-sweden-stopped-testing-people-for-the-coronavirus

Those were for low risk people though, e.g. when a colleague of mine had a cough back in March and called the call center and wanted a test was told to just stay at home.

From the article you posted

As a rational approach, national authorities may consider prioritising testing in the following groups: hospitalised patients with severe respiratory infections; cases with acute respiratory infections in hospital or long-term care facilities; patients with acute respiratory infections or influenza-like illness in certain outpatient clinics or hospitals in order to assess the extent of virus circulation in the population; elderly people with underlying chronic medical conditions such as lung disease, cancer, heart failure, cerebrovascular disease, renal disease, liver disease, diabetes, and immunocompromising conditions.

bb1234567

JimmyVik wrote: »

Dont forget an awful lot of people who would have otherwise got it and maybe died from it or have been helped along by it if they had another disease that killed them, didnt get the flu or other illnesses this year because of lockdown too.
This will have to be factored into the equations when the dust settles as well.

Lemsip sales are down

Influenza activity is usually almost zero at this time of year in Europe , any noticeable flu outbreaks after April or before October are extremely uncommon

JimmyVik

bb1234567 wrote: »

Influenza activity is usually almost zero at this time of year in Europe , any noticeable flu outbreaks after April or before October are extremely uncommon

We were locked down in March and April, no?

bb1234567

JimmyVik wrote: »

We were locked down in March and April, no?

Yeh might have blunted some late March flu activity perhaps

As you can see the flu season was almost entirely over by the time of lockdown though . Maybe I'm wrong but I'm taking it that flu season duration in USA in thus CDC graph and Ireland are similar

is_that_so

bb1234567 wrote: »

Yeh might have blunted some late March flu activity perhaps

As you can see the flu season was almost entirely over by the time of lockdown though . Maybe I'm wrong but I'm taking it that flu season duration in USA in thus CDC graph and Ireland are similar

De Gascun did mention a truncated flu' season at a few points in March/April. It would have been still going through March anyway.

tobefrank321

JimmyVik wrote: »

We were locked down in March and April, no?

Late March onwards. Flu season was virtually over by then. April was our worst month for covid deaths so its not like we did a great job eliminating infectious diseases that month.
However, if we maintain some social distancing next winter and nursing homes maintain restrictions on visitors such as no touching, hugs or handshakes, flu season mightn't be too bad. I think there will be an awareness going forward of vulnerable categories to infectious diseases which is a good thing.

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

Finnish Public Service about the Swedish strategy:


https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11433976

Countless cases like that also in Ireland unfortunately even for relatively young people.

One example cited on the news in recent days was a guy with Down Syndrome who wasn't expected to recover from covid 19 and was given end of life care, without being brought near a hospital. You'd question why he wasn't brought to ICU. And imagine the outrage by some if it happened in Sweden.

So we can't exactly throw stones at the Swedes.

JimmyVik

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Late March onwards. Flu season was virtually over by then. April was our worst month for covid deaths so its not like we did a great job eliminating infectious diseases that month.
However, if we maintain some social distancing next winter and nursing homes maintain restrictions on visitors such as no touching, hugs or handshakes, flu season mightn't be too bad. I think there will be an awareness going forward of vulnerable categories to infectious diseases which is a good thing.

People dont just die from flu complications in Flu season.
My own grandfather went into in September from the Flu and died a couple of weeks later.

tobefrank321

JimmyVik wrote: »

People dont just die from flu complications in Flu season.
My own grandfather went into in September from the Flu and died a couple of weeks later.

That is true as flu is a year round disease in the community, but when medical experts say flu season they mean when peak deaths occur.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/flu/flu-symptoms-and-diagnosis.html

The real flu tends to happen during the winter. It usually spreads between October and April.

Since you won't take my word

is_that_so

tobefrank321 wrote: »

That is true as flu is a year round disease in the community, but when medical experts say flu season they mean when peak deaths occur.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/flu/flu-symptoms-and-diagnosis.html



Since you won't take my word

In our cooler climes it's considered seasonal but year round in warmer places.

deconduo

https://theweek.com/speedreads/924238/sweden-literally-gained-nothing-from-staying-open-during-covid19-including-no-economic-gains

Article suggests there's been no economic benefit from Sweden's strategy.

biko

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Countless cases like that also in Ireland unfortunately even for relatively young people.

One example cited on the news in recent days was a guy with Down Syndrome who wasn't expected to recover from covid 19 and was given end of life care, without being brought near a hospital. You'd question why he wasn't brought to ICU. And imagine the outrage by some if it happened in Sweden.

So we can't exactly throw stones at the Swedes.

I know what you mean but just because Ireland and other are euthanizing people it doesn't mean it's right for Sweden to do so too.
Sweden actually brands itself a "humanitarian superpower" :super-facepalm:

I hope a commission will be set up when every doctor that ordered end-of-life will have to explain themselves to the public - in Ireland as well as Sweden.

is_that_so

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Countless cases like that also in Ireland unfortunately even for relatively young people.

One example cited on the news in recent days was a guy with Down Syndrome who wasn't expected to recover from covid 19 and was given end of life care, without being brought near a hospital. You'd question why he wasn't brought to ICU. And imagine the outrage by some if it happened in Sweden.

So we can't exactly throw stones at the Swedes.

Colm Henry has more than once pointed out they make calls on a case by case basis as to where the best place for such patients is. Hospital and ICU may not be that place.

cnocbui

Ordering end of life care is probably the definition of 'humanitarian.'

I hope there isn't an inquiry. Tough enough being in a position to have to make those sorts of decisions without being held to account to the moral views of bystanders.