Sweden avoiding lockdown

SeaBreezes

99nsr125 wrote: »

Nobody's life is going to be saved you're just extending the pain and destroying everyone's lfe because it's a reality you are incapable of accepting.

Destroying your life csuse you cant go to the pub and have to wear a mask? Really? Your that precious?

Extending the pain of living? Maybe we should just cull all non earners? Or just allow lifelong tax payers to live to.old age? Or do we just shoot the ones who cant work?

Civilised societies are judged by the way they treat their vulnerable. Sweden has failed badly on the international stage by not even trying.

No.success there at all.

Not only did they not gain economically.

The massacre.of their vulnerable to the experiment of herd immunity without even knowing if herd immunity was possible, well.i wonder how every swede is not hanging their head in shame for allowing that experiment at all.

And as for those grieving, how angry they must be.

YFlyer

cnocbui wrote: »

Really? You know, if you look hard enough, and for long enough, you might eventually find someone who cares about what you write if they are into snide and abrasive. Don't give up hope, there is always a chance!

Contribute nothing there to the discussion.

biko

More and more negative publicity for Sweden

Sweden becomes an example of how not to handle COVID-19

Sweden's stay-the-course approach alarms Nele Brusselaers, an epidemiologist at the world renowned Karolinska Institute medical research university in Stockholm.

"If there is one country in Europe where there will be a second peak, it will be most likely Sweden, because they're still not doing that much to really stop it," she said.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sweden-covid-coronavirus-deaths-make-sweden-example-of-how-not-to-deal-with-covid-19/


But amazingly more than half still trust the government

Recent polls have shown public confidence is dropping. In one poll, conducted by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency on July 6,
45% of those surveyed said they had little trust in the authorities' handling of the coronavirus epidemic

xhomelezz

99nsr125 wrote: »

Nobody's life is going to be saved you're just extending the pain and destroying everyone's lfe because it's a reality you are incapable of accepting.

Jeez man, this post is just utter rubbish. Was gonna use different words, but gonna keep it civil.

Ginger n Lemon

biko wrote: »

More and more negative publicity for Sweden

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sweden-covid-coronavirus-deaths-make-sweden-example-of-how-not-to-deal-with-covid-19/


But amazingly more than half still trust the government

Whats the obsession with CBS news? CNN? Like you are quoting US news channels. Are they the "reliable source of accurate reporting"?

No surprise most Swedes trust the govt. They ll never have a dreaded 2nd wave we are dreading here...or all of Europe will be dreading in October, November.

We are still technically in lockdown with over 30,000 pub staff sitting at home. after 4 months......... going to 5 months............... And now news reports coming out that in Australia, suicides relating to unemployment created by covid in 2 weeks period exceeded deaths from covid in a 3 month period.

Perspective.

Boggles

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

suicides relating to unemployment created by covid in 2 weeks period exceeded deaths from covid in a 3 month period.

Roughly 60 suicides a week on average in Oz according to 2018 stats.

So 120 over 2 weeks.

They have 118 deaths from covid in 4 and a half months.

Stats like a bikini very revealing, but they tend to hide the most important parts.

99nsr125

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Destroying your life csuse you cant go to the pub and have to wear a mask? Really? Your that precious?

Extending the pain of living? Maybe we should just cull all non earners? Or just allow lifelong tax payers to live to.old age? Or do we just shoot the ones who cant work?

.

Did I say anything like this, perhaps these are your internalised thoughts given word by an emotional response. You do your best for the most the other option is to discriminate and that is uncivilised

KiKi III

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Whats the obsession with CBS news? CNN? Like you are quoting US news channels. Are they the "reliable source of accurate reporting"?

No surprise most Swedes trust the govt. They ll never have a dreaded 2nd wave we are dreading here...or all of Europe will be dreading in October, November.

Not sure that counts as an achievement if they’re not worrying about a second wave because they haven’t suppressed the first...

niallo27

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Destroying your life csuse you cant go to the pub and have to wear a mask? Really? Your that precious?

Extending the pain of living? Maybe we should just cull all non earners? Or just allow lifelong tax payers to live to.old age? Or do we just shoot the ones who cant work?

Civilised societies are judged by the way they treat their vulnerable. Sweden has failed badly on the international stage by not even trying.

No.success there at all.

Not only did they not gain economically.

The massacre.of their vulnerable to the experiment of herd immunity without even knowing if herd immunity was possible, well.i wonder how every swede is not hanging their head in shame for allowing that experiment at all.

And as for those grieving, how angry they must be.

They had 5k die with double our population, i would hardly call it a massacre. If your points are true that they just left the vulnerable die then why is the death count so low, is the virus not as deadly as thought or can you explain the low number to me.

99nsr125

xhomelezz wrote: »

Jeez man, this post is just utter rubbish. Was gonna use different words, but gonna keep it civil.

Don't negate to offer a contrasting view, debate is how we discover the answers.

Can you tell me is there any comparable affliction that has disappeared through the current measures ?

biko

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Whats the obsession with CBS news? CNN? Like you are quoting US news channels. Are they the "reliable source of accurate reporting"?

No surprise most Swedes trust the govt. They ll never have a dreaded 2nd wave we are dreading here...or all of Europe will be dreading in October, November.

We are still technically in lockdown with over 30,000 pub staff sitting at home. after 4 months......... going to 5 months............... And now news reports coming out that in Australia, suicides relating to unemployment created by covid in 2 weeks period exceeded deaths from covid in a 3 month period.

Perspective.

At least I have sources for my claims, you just blurt out guesses and all kinds of unverified info.
I see you joined in May 2020 and have consistently defended the Swedish government.
Are you sent by them to protect the Sweden Image?

charlie14

niallo27 wrote: »

They had 5k die with double our population, i would hardly call it a massacre. If your points are true that they just left the vulnerable die then why is the death count so low, is the virus not as deadly as thought or can you explain the low number to me.

Not that Ireland can be compared to Sweden on a like for like basis, but Sweden has to date 5,619 death. Ireland has 1,753.
By population Sweden has to date 56% more deaths than Ireland and now has the 5th highest rate in Europe with Italy 4th.
I would not look on that as a low death count.

When you compare Sweden with its Nordic neighbours per 100,000 of population the deaths could not be looked on as low either.
Sweden 54.67
Denmark 10.51
Finland 5.94
Norway 4.77

charlie14

99nsr125 wrote: »

Don't negate to offer a contrasting view, debate is how we discover the answers.

Can you tell me is there any comparable affliction that has disappeared through the current measures ?

Bubonic plague in the 14th century that can now be treated using antibiotics such as streptomycin.

niallo27

charlie14 wrote: »

Not that Ireland can be compared to Sweden on a like for like basis, but Sweden has to date 5,619 death. Ireland has 1,753.
By population Sweden has to date 56% more deaths than Ireland and now has the 5th highest rate in Europe with Italy 4th.
I would not look on that as a low death count.

When you compare Sweden with its Nordic neighbours per 100,000 of population the deaths could not be looked on as low either.
Sweden 54.67
Denmark 10.51
Finland 5.94
Norway 4.77

Would you call them figures a massacre though which is what the poster did with the vulnerable left to die. By models from February and March they should have over 100k dead, now either sweden is not as bad as people like to believe or this virus is not as deadly as people like to believe.

99nsr125

charlie14 wrote: »

Bubonic plague in the 14th century that can now be treated using antibiotics such as streptomycin.

With the *current measures*

Also as you have stated the plague still exists so . . .

bob mcbob

greyday wrote: »

https://hejsweden.com/en/swedish-holiday-dont-work-in-july/

Take your holiday in July

During the months of July, whole Sweden seems to go on holiday.

Some stores are closed, so are a few hospitals – no reason for Swedes to get ill when the sun is shining – and even some police stations shut down entirely – no crime to solve when criminals are on vacation as well.

Yes this may be true in a normal year but as far as I know Sweden is on the red list for every European country so no travel without quarantine. So they will not be going anywhere this year.

charlie14

niallo27 wrote: »

Would you call them figures a massacre though which is what the poster did with the vulnerable left to die. By models from February and March they should have over 100k dead, now either sweden is not as bad as people like to believe or this virus is not as deadly as people like to believe.

Sweden decided based on modelling that they would go for herd immunity rather than lockdown.
Their neighbours went with the modelling figures on possible deaths and used lockdown.
One used a reckless strategy that achieved nothing other than needless deaths.
The others followed a strategy to minimise deaths.
The comparative figures speak for themselves.

charlie14

99nsr125 wrote: »

With the *current measures*

Also as you have stated the plague still exists so . . .

The "current measures" were used for the Black Plague and also successfully for the Spanish Flu.
You are a great believer that your immune system will cure all ills on its own without any restrictions or vaccines.
Can you name one pandemic where that has been the case ?

niallo27

charlie14 wrote: »

Sweden decided based on modelling that they would go for herd immunity rather than lockdown.
Their neighbours went with the modelling figures on possible deaths and used lockdown.
One used a reckless strategy that achieved nothing other than needless deaths.
The others followed a strategy to minimise deaths.
The comparative figures speak for themselves.

The modelling used said that there would be over 100k dead, im not saying Sweden used the right approach, im not defending them but as I said before either the modelling is bull**** or sweden are not as bad as made out to be. We all know they are worse than their neighbours but that's not what im asking.

charlie14

niallo27 wrote: »

The modelling used said that there would be over 100k dead, im not saying Sweden used the right approach, im not defending them but as I said before either the modelling is bull**** or sweden are not as bad as made out to be. We all know they are worse than their neighbours but that's not what im asking.

Irrespective of how far the modelling figures were off on deaths without lockdown what difference does it make.
Three of the four Nordic countries used lockdown and one didn`t.
The one that didn`t has multiple deaths of the other three and has gained no benefit from it.

niallo27

charlie14 wrote: »

Irrespective of how far the modelling figures were off on deaths without lockdown what difference does it make.
Three of the four Nordic countries used lockdown and one didn`t.
The one that didn`t has multiple deaths of the other three and has gained no benefit from it.

Would you call it a massacre though and a cull of the vulnerable.

bb1234567

charlie14 wrote: »

Irrespective of how far the modelling figures were off on deaths without lockdown what difference does it make.
Three of the four Nordic countries used lockdown and one didn`t.
The one that didn`t has multiple deaths of the other three and has gained no benefit from it.

Well of course it makes a difference, we chose the lockdown approach based on the fact all governments across the world believed they would face that level of deaths without a lockdown. 100,000 deaths is not something around which normal daily life can work with, 5,000 on the other hand, as we can see,appears to be. Sweden showed that those models were not necessarily correct and for some countries these models were massively sensationalised .

Having said that, Sweden does not prove that that route of management is appropriate in all contexts. Latin American countries without lockdowns are experiencing completely unacceptable high levels of deaths with tens of thousands of relatively young and often healthy people dying because of overwhelmed health services, and with no end in sight to this either. So it completely depends of many cultural and other factors unique to the area in question. All Sweden proves was that a lockdown was not necessary in Sweden to maintain a relatively manageable level of deaths and rate of infection. Not many people are saying swedens deaths are not high, but are they high enough to suspend normal society over? Most people would say no to that also I would say

charlie14

niallo27 wrote: »

Would you call it a massacre though and a cull of the vulnerable.

.


I have already said what I call it.
A reckless strategy that caused needless deaths.

Something that is clear to see when compared with the strategy followed by its Nordic neighbours.

MerlinSouthDub

charlie14 wrote: »

.


I have already said what I call it.
A reckless strategy that caused needless deaths.

Something that is clear to see when compared with the strategy followed by its Nordic neighbours.

I agree it was a reckless strategy. There was so little known about the virus at the time they embarked on their approach. So, what they have done was highly irresponsible.

However, we do not yet know what the final picture will look like. It is quite possible (probable?) that Sweden will not experience a second wave whereas other countries might.

So, we do not know at this point if the Sweden strategy caused needless deaths. I say this as an observation, and not as a defence of their approach.

charlie14

bb1234567 wrote: »

Well of course it makes a difference, we chose the lockdown approach based on the fact all governments across the world believed they would face that level of deaths without a lockdown. 100,000 deaths is not something around which normal daily life can work with, 5,000 on the other hand, as we can see,appears to be. Sweden showed that those models were not necessarily correct and for some countries these models were massively sensationalised .

Having said that, Sweden does not prove that that route of management is appropriate in all contexts. Latin American countries without lockdowns are experiencing completely unacceptable high levels of deaths with tens of thousands of relatively young and often healthy people dying because of overwhelmed health services, and with no end in sight to this either. So it completely depends of many cultural and other factors unique to the area in question. All Sweden proves was that a lockdown was not necessary in Sweden to maintain a relatively manageable level of deaths and rate of infection. Not many people are saying swedens deaths are not high, but are they high enough to suspend normal society over? Most people would say no to that also I would say

It may make a difference in hindsight. Unfortunately nobody had the benefit of hindsight when chosing which strategy to follow.
As you say the chosen strategy may depend on many factors unique to the area, but in the case of the Nordic countries where many factors are similar, Sweden`s choice has been the outlier with multiple deaths compared too the other three, and no benefit gained.


There are many factors we have in common with Britain, yet their deaths are also multiples of ours. The one stand out difference as far as I`m concerned is that they played around with the Swedish strategy for too long before introducing lockdown.
A fair indication of where we would be now had we done the same imo.

charlie14

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

I agree it was a reckless strategy. There was so little known about the virus at the time they embarked on their approach. So, what they have done was highly irresponsible.

However, we do not yet know what the final picture will look like. It is quite possible (probable?) that Sweden will not experience a second wave whereas other countries might.

So, we do not know at this point if the Sweden strategy caused needless deaths. I say this as an observation, and not as a defence of their approach.

Sweden`s strategy was based on gaining herd immunity. From their own antibody tests they are nowhere close to achieving that, so if there is a second wave they are going to be no better off than countries that used lockdown.
In fact based on antibody test results,some countries that used lockdown have fared better than Sweden. Results for Madrid are as good if not better than Stockholm, Sweden`s epicenter.
Bergamo, Italy`s epicenter showed 56% as opposed to Stockholm`s 17%

JimmyVik

charlie14 wrote: »

The "current measures" were used for the Black Plague and also successfully for the Spanish Flu.
You are a great believer that your immune system will cure all ills on its own without any restrictions or vaccines.
Can you name one pandemic where that has been the case ?

With the black death they bricked up your doors and windows and left you and your family in there to die.

charlie14

JimmyVik wrote: »

With the black death they bricked up your doors and windows and left you and your family in there to die.

That was the quarantine of the day.
In more recent times the same principle was applied to whole villages in certain parts of Africa to control the spread of the ebola virus.

StefanFal

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yes this may be true in a normal year but as far as I know Sweden is on the red list for every European country so no travel without quarantine. So they will not be going anywhere this year.

Not true. There are some countries open such as Spain, Croatia. I was in Norway last week on a cycling trip. The borders are not policed.

cnocbui

JimmyVik wrote: »

With the black death they bricked up your doors and windows and left you and your family in there to die.

If that ever actually happened, it would have been an extremely rare event as there literally wasn't the manpower, the death toll being so high.