Sweden avoiding lockdown

mcsean2163

charlie14 wrote: »

We borrowed 231 billion since March.:rolleyes:

We've left ourselves with little wiggle room. Is continuing rolling lockdowns sustainable for a country in our position?

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

I have a bridge to sell very cheap, are you interested?
There is a very good argument that the Swedes have reported at least less then 2000 deaths from Covid than they should have while we have reported more deaths than we should have, the bridge is made of gold.

Prove those 2000 are covid related and not for example people avoiding treatment for other ailments such as stroke, heart attacks or cancer because they are afraid of going to hospital.

Come on, show us the proof.

You seem to think people only die of covid when in reality covid will at most make up less than 10% of deaths in most countries, Sweden and Ireland included.

But hey lets ignore the 90% of other deaths including the collatoral of lockdowns such as undiagnosed cancers. In Ireland its closer to 5%.

Other causes of death can't get a look in these days, I suppose they aren't dramatic enough.

gabeeg

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Prove those 2000 are covid related and not for example people avoiding treatment for other ailments such as stroke, heart attacks or cancer because they are afraid of going to hospital.

Come on, show us the proof.

You seem to think people only die of covid when in reality covid will at most make up less than 10% of deaths in most countries, Sweden and Ireland included.

But hey lets ignore the 90% of other deaths including the collatoral of lockdowns such as undiagnosed cancers. In Ireland its closer to 5%.

Other causes of death can't get a look in these days, I suppose they aren't dramatic enough.

You've accidentally made the case for lockdowns

Nice job

Wolf359f

Just a quick question, how does Sweden report their new case numbers. Just going by Worldometers (I know it's not a great source)
They seem to post double digit numbers in a day and the next day it goes to a treble digit number. Yesterday all day it was, I think about 36 or 63 and today when I check yesterday it's 378. At first glance it looks like good numbers, but they are ticking up from a low of an average of 188 daily cases.

tobefrank321

gabeeg wrote: »

You've accidentally made the case for lockdowns

Nice job

Lockdown away. We've seen its an unsustainable approach from a health point of view in that once you lift it you're back to square 1 after a few weeks. The Swedes have proved that other measures other than lockdowns bring deaths and ICU admissions down.

And economically lockdown is a disastrous policy.

But theres no convincing some. They'd have us in permanent lockdown if they could.

tobefrank321

Wolf359f wrote: »

Just a quick question, how does Sweden report their new case numbers. Just going by Worldometers (I know it's not a great source)
They seem to post double digit numbers in a day and the next day it goes to a treble digit number. Yesterday all day it was, I think about 36 or 63 and today when I check yesterday it's 378. At first glance it looks like good numbers, but they are ticking up from a low of an average of 188 daily cases.

Likely different regions reporting at different times, similar to the UK or US. Their new cases are largely in younger age groups. Interestingly the Swedes advise against non essential visits to the elderly, which is something we don't advise here.

Wolf359f

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Likely different regions reporting at different times, similar to the UK or US. Their new cases are largely in younger age groups. Interestingly the Swedes advise against non essential visits to the elderly, which is something we don't advise here.

Would that be because they have such high daily case numbers?
I mean we have high case numbers in 'LOK' and nursing homes in those 3 counties are closing visitation. The rest of the counties which have a much lower incidence rate can still visit the elderly.

Spiderman0081

The amount of cases in Sweden is generally quite high but the amount of hospitalizations, icu admittances and deaths have thankfully been decreasing on a steady path.
The main difference is that people here in Sweden seem to have a very positive outlook on the government leaving the implementation of the recommendations up to the public themselves. For better or worse. Even those who would be classed as vulnerable are glad to be able to take certain risks if they freely choose to do so and not have to explain to a police man where they are going at a road checkpoint.
But who knows. They might restrict a certain region if things got out of control again. People were advised in March for example not to travel to a region where you would put a strain on different regions hospitals than those you would generally be admitted to in case of an emergency if you were at home. But it was not policed or enforced in any way.

ceadaoin.

gabeeg wrote: »

No. If they're working in a factory they're unlikely to be old or infirm and therefore most if not all would not require hospitalisation.

Many probably got sick, but that's hardly newsworthy.

I thought those that gave it the "it's just a flu" were bad enough, but some of you are now drifting into "it's not even a mild cold" territory now.

These people have been falsely labeled asymptomatic. There's no way of knowing how they'll fare in the end, but in the incubation period all of them are simply pre-symptomatic.

Where did I ever say its just a mild cold ffs? The fact is that at least 80% of people are either asymptomatic or have mild symptoms. You said that "so many" of those workers are going to get "very very sick". Well they didn't the last time because if they did we would know about it, and they would be statistical outliers so it would be reported. But ok, facts are covid denial now. Just wait 2 weeks etc etc.

mcsean2163

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Prove those 2000 are covid related and not for example people avoiding treatment for other ailments such as stroke, heart attacks or cancer because they are afraid of going to hospital.

Come on, show us the proof.

You seem to think people only die of covid when in reality covid will at most make up less than 10% of deaths in most countries, Sweden and Ireland included.

But hey lets ignore the 90% of other deaths including the collatoral of lockdowns such as undiagnosed cancers. In Ireland its closer to 5%.

Other causes of death can't get a look in these days, I suppose they aren't dramatic enough.

I posted the Euro mono graph for deaths in EU. The weekly death rate is non linear and looks to be front loaded in the first half of the year. I didn't spend long on it but 2000 extra in first six months probably isn't unusual for Sweden.

mcsean2163

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Lockdown away. We've seen its an unsustainable approach from a health point of view in that once you lift it you're back to square 1 after a few weeks. The Swedes have proved that other measures other than lockdowns bring deaths and ICU admissions down.

And economically lockdown is a disastrous policy.

But theres no convincing some. They'd have us in permanent lockdown if they could.

Agree on the last point, some people are happy to work from home etc. and don't seem to care that we're borrowing billions for lockdown.

nw1dqsv7amx026

charlie14 wrote: »

We borrowed 231 billion since March.:rolleyes:

Yep, this shows what you really think.

Probably not you who will be paying it back.

I think it's far from funny.

nw1dqsv7amx026

gabeeg wrote: »

You've accidentally made the case for lockdowns

Nice job

How did he do that? I don't see it?

charlie14

mcsean2163 wrote: »

We've left ourselves with little wiggle room. Is continuing rolling lockdowns sustainable for a country in our position?

We didn`t have much wriggle room during the banking crisis either.
A lot of money thrown at that for all the thanks we got from the banks for saving their asses, and it didn`t save a single life.
Do you realise just how much that cost the taxpayer ?
It will not just be your daughter but your grandchildren who will still be paying for that.

Lash_Alert

Jessica Swift Bearded wrote: »

So, lockdown didn't work so what will we do???

I know more but better lockdown.

How didnt it work? Our cases went from high to low....the only thing that didnt work was trusting people to use common sense.

Lash_Alert

mcsean2163 wrote: »

National debt now €231 billion

https://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/statistics

It will be 250 billion by Christmas. Who's meant to pay it? Unless the world completely changes, this Pandemic is going to be extremely expensive.

I told my daughter today that her generation will pay for it. What happens if multinationals exit Ireland, who will lend to us then?

More lockdowns, no tourism, how long can this go on?

you're good craic arent ya? what an odd sentence to say to your daughter.

Lash_Alert

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Likely different regions reporting at different times, similar to the UK or US. Their new cases are largely in younger age groups. Interestingly the Swedes advise against non essential visits to the elderly, which is something we don't advise here.

You need to be advised of that? Would you like someone from the government to call to your house and tell you? Janey

mcsean2163

charlie14 wrote: »

We didn`t have much wriggle room during the banking crisis either.
A lot of money thrown at that for all the thanks we got from the banks for saving their asses, and it didn`t save a single life.
Do you realise just how much that cost the taxpayer ?
It will not just be your daughter but your grandchildren who will still be paying for that.

The bank bailout cost €41.3 billion.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/bank-bail-out-estimated-to-have-cost-state-41-7bn-says-comptroller-1.4035332?mode=amp

Unemployment, public sector wages etc. were the big costs or circa €130 billion.

We won't get another €130 billion this time I think, so what happens next year? What happens if the schools don't open?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30994285.html

nw1dqsv7amx026

Lash_Alert wrote: »

How didnt it work? Our cases went from high to low....the only thing that didnt work was trusting people to use common sense.

As had been said multiple times it could go to zero cases and it will come back unless you lock the borders down hard with the DUP agreement to do the same to Britain.

You're deluding yourself if you think anything other than that or a vaccine will stop it. A highly contagious virus that mostly has mild or no symptoms will not be stopped.

The Irish approach will impoverish us and not stop the virus.

The problem with common sense is that it's not that common, plus you're assuming 100% buy in to the government measures.
Look around, that's not happening, especially with young people.

nw1dqsv7amx026

mcsean2163 wrote: »

National debt now €231 billion

https://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/statistics

It will be 250 billion by Christmas. Who's meant to pay it? Unless the world completely changes, this Pandemic is going to be extremely expensive.

I told my daughter today that her generation will pay for it. What happens if multinationals exit Ireland, who will lend to us then?

More lockdowns, no tourism, how long can this go on?

Lash_Alert wrote: »

you're good craic arent ya? what an odd sentence to say to your daughter.

I suppose it depends on the age and attitude of his daughter.

Maybe like many in this country, she doesn't think it's real money that could be better spent elsewhere and will have to be paid back.

nw1dqsv7amx026

mcsean2163 wrote: »

The bank bailout cost €41.3 billion.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/bank-bail-out-estimated-to-have-cost-state-41-7bn-says-comptroller-1.4035332?mode=amp

Unemployment, public sector wages etc. were the big costs or circa €130 billion.

We won't get another €130 billion this time I think, so what happens next year? What happens if the schools don't open?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30994285.html

So who goes down as the most ruinous taoiseach? I didn't think anybody would beat Bertie. He certainly looked pleased with himself when being interviewed about John Hume.

Lash_Alert

Jessica Swift Bearded wrote: »

As had been said multiple times it could go to zero cases and it will come back unless you lock the borders down hard with the DUP agreement to do the same to Britain.

You're deluding yourself if you think anything other than that or a vaccine will stop it. A highly contagious virus that mostly has mild or no symptoms will not be stopped.

The Irish approach will impoverish us and not stop the virus.

The problem with common sense is that it's not that common, plus you're assuming 100% buy in to the government measures.
Look around, that's not happening, especially with young people.

Multiple questions:
1. When did i ever say we would stop it?
2. Its not the Irish approach its a common global approach, allow small numbers of ppl to get it
3. No, its just common sense. The issue is people not controlling their kids etc.

nw1dqsv7amx026

Lash_Alert wrote: »

Multiple questions:
1. When did i ever say we would stop it?

No idea, I'm not going to search your posts. Your post implied that you think lock down is a good idea.

2. Its not the Irish approach its a common global approach, allow small numbers of ppl to get it

Yes that's true. So that's makes it the right response?

3. No, its just common sense. The issue is people not controlling their kids etc.

Many of these kids are over 18.

Maybe the parents of under 18s don't think it's right to lock down their kids?

I certainly don't know any parents who think it's right that their kids have been out of school since March.

As I said, not everybody is on board.

Lash_Alert

Jessica Swift Bearded wrote: »

No idea, I'm not going to search your posts. Your post implied that you think lock down is a good idea.


Yes that's true. So that's makes it the right response?



Many of these kids are over 18.

Maybe the parents of under 18s don't think it's right to lock down their kids?

I certainly don't know any parents who think it's right that their kids have been out of school since March.

As I said, not everybody is on board.

Well i doubt most 18 - 30 year olds have their own places (be that renting or owned) so lets assume then they live with parents and for that reason its down to the parents.

nw1dqsv7amx026

Lash_Alert wrote: »

Well i doubt most 18 - 30 year olds have their own places (be that renting or owned) so lets assume then they live with parents and for that reason its down to the parents.

And back to the answer I gave you above:-

Maybe the parents of under 18s don't think it's right to lock down their kids?

gabeeg

Jessica Swift Bearded wrote: »

As had been said multiple times it could go to zero cases and it will come back unless you lock the borders down hard with the DUP agreement to do the same to Britain.

You're deluding yourself if you think anything other than that or a vaccine will stop it. A highly contagious virus that mostly has mild or no symptoms will not be stopped.

The Irish approach will impoverish us and not stop the virus.

The problem with common sense is that it's not that common, plus you're assuming 100% buy in to the government measures.
Look around, that's not happening, especially with young people.

You clearly completely misunderstand the use of the word "mild" in a medical context.

Lash_Alert

Jessica Swift Bearded wrote: »

And back to the answer I gave you above:-

Maybe the parents of under 18s don't think it's right to lock down their kids?

Once they are under their roof, they are their responsibility.

nw1dqsv7amx026

Lash_Alert wrote: »

Once they are under their roof, they are their responsibility.

So we're going in circles.

Maybe the parents who are responsible are happy to let their kids break the rules.
My daughters friend is returning from Portugal on Wednesday and wants to meet the gang on Thursday.

Probably plenty of irresponsible parents don't care either way about this or anything their kids do.

Either way causes a problem to the current plan so you're going to need the Chinese solution.

Lash_Alert

Jessica Swift Bearded wrote: »

So we're going in circles.

Maybe the parents who are responsible are happy to let their kids break the rules.
My daughters friend is returning from Portugal on Wednesday and wants to meet the gang on Thursday.

Probably plenty of irresponsible parents don't care either way about this or anything their kids do.

Either way causes a problem to the current plan so you're going to need the Chinese solution.

No circles. The parents are responsible. Is Portugal on green list? If not then she cant meet friends on Thursday. If it is, then she can. Thats the rules at present. Common sense then on top of that would tell you it isnt smart to be meeting

nw1dqsv7amx026

Lash_Alert wrote: »

No circles. The parents are responsible. Is Portugal on green list? If not then she cant meet friends on Thursday. If it is, then she can. Thats the rules at present. Common sense then on top of that would tell you it isnt smart to be meeting

Ok I'll get my daughter to tell her friend what you said.
Everything's going to be fine now!