Sweden avoiding lockdown

road_high

A vaccine in theory isn’t a lot different to herd immunity- you’re exposed to the virus which triggers your immune system to produce T cells or whatever (my university Microbiology modules are gone rusty!) in response. These will be released next time your body is exposed to the virus

kippy

road_high wrote: »

A vaccine in theory isn’t a lot different to herd immunity- you’re exposed to the virus which triggers your immune system to produce T cells or whatever (my university Microbiology modules are gone rusty!) in response. These will be released next time your body is exposed to the virus

A vaccine is one of the two paths to get to herd immunity, not similiar to herd immunity but a way to get to herd immunity.
The other way is obviously a controlled or uncontrolled circulation of the disease within the community.
In the case of this disease which is still very new, with relatively little known about it, there is no country in the world working towards herd immunity in an uncontrolled manner.
A vaccine is a MUCH safer method to get to her immunity for very obvious reasons but not always an option.

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charles, for the final time btw, Swedish strategy did not have a goal of herd immunity. Herd immunity is something that happens - anyways.

"Dr Giesecke said his country never had a herd immunity strategy but herd immunity was a “by-product” of allowing a controlled spread of the disease.

Sweden’s “soft lockdown” worked because the country trusted its people, he said, adding “people are not stupid” and would respond if told how to protect themselves.

Giving his opening address, Dr Giesecke reiterated his view that there should be a “controlled spread” among the under 60s and allow a “tolerable spread” of the virus in the over-60s.

He said schools must remain open and he pointed out that there was no difference between infections among schoolchildren in Sweden, where schools were kept open, and in neighbouring Finland which closed its schools."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/health-experts-have-insufficient-information-to-establish-where-people-get-covid-19-committee-hears-1.4362340

PS we should all feel very ashamed for forcing our children to "remote learning" for the 3 months from March, per that in last bold. I wont talk about predicted grades shambles.

How come herd immunity doesn't work against the seasonal flu if it just happens naturally?

mohawk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How come herd immunity doesn't work against the seasonal flu?

The Virus mutates. So even if you get it once you will still be able to get it again as your immune system won’t always recognise the mutated virus as something you have had before.

charlie14

99nsr125 wrote: »

The clue might be in the first sentence of my post

My point has been consistent from the start, if you haven't read them then double back and inform yourself correctly.

I believe in vaccines and I am vaccinated against a significant amount of diseases as my worrk has brought me to dangerous parts of the world.

I am also very aware there are some things we don't have a vaccine for despite egregious amounts of research and investment. These things could kill me and my colleagues but the risk is balanced against other everyday hazards.

Covid will come to all of us, we just have to do it in a gradual way. My point has always been the area under the curve is always the same. Only the time period varies.



Lastly you seem more invested in responding to posts than their content. This achieves nothing in debate.

You may be correct in that as at the time I had something else on and may not have given your post my full attention.
Apologies for that, so I will endeavour to do so now.

I did ask where you got the idea that zero lockdown was advocated here but you did not answer in your reply.
You appear to be comparing this pandemic to the plaque 500 years ago.
Considering they knew nothing on transmittable diseases or vaccines 500 years ago is that not attempting to compare a horse and cart to a space rocket ?

I agree with you on "Managing the case load and expanding bed capacity are the actual tools we have". That was what was advocated with lockdown. Not zero Covid.
But how does that statement stand up with your further assertion that "You will find when hospital numbers steady ,case numbers will be allowed to rise until we get estimates like 10,000 cases today,(a day?) at that point it will be over".
How is our heath service going to expand capacity and manage 100,000 daily cases ?
How would what you are advocating, with numbers like that, not make what the Italians endure look like a teddy bear picnic compared to here?

charlie14

mohawk wrote: »

The Virus mutates. So even if you get it once you will still be able to get it again as your immune system won’t always recognise the mutated virus as something you have had before.

So if Covid-19 mutates are you not back where you started with no immunity ?


The flu vaccine may not be ideal in that the flu virus mutates so rapidly, (something so far there is no great indication of Covid-19 having done), but without the flu vaccine death due to it would be multiples of what they are.
In fact if more availed of the flu vaccine the mortality rate would be much lower would it not ?

charlie14

road_high wrote: »

A vaccine in theory isn’t a lot different to herd immunity- you’re exposed to the virus which triggers your immune system to produce T cells or whatever (my university Microbiology modules are gone rusty!) in response. These will be released next time your body is exposed to the virus

Not in theory, but in practice there is a world of difference.
Vaccines go through different testing stages. Phase 3 of most of the vaccines now in development have 30,000 volunteers participating in their tests to ensure they are safe and do what they are meant too. One recently paused because one participant became ill.
Attempting acquired herd immunity has no pause button.

Breezin

ArthurDayne wrote: »

In fairness the term “herd immunity” has been outrageously politicised and hyperbolised in the whole Covid debate. ...

What a great post.

No matter how many times it has been explained to them, there are contributors here who cling to the expression because it is their weapon of choice in promoting their viewpoint.

Breezin

C4 News on Sweden:

charlie14

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Slovakia 7 deaths per million. Mexico a horror show.

My colleague and I have spent a lot of time researching these variations with a particular angle and posted our work on researchgate and to various university professors, TDs, doctors, pharmacists etc.

Despite our campaigning nobody has looked into our hypothesis. I hope very much that we are wrong.

I would hope the same, but the stats in that article you linked to were not encouraging.

Ginger n Lemon

Breezin wrote: »

C4 News on Sweden:

Great video. That at 2:07 is pretty good too

The quote from Swedish health minister was a re-mindful one "our strategy is all about living life, not surviving". I think that is something that isnt discussed enough.

kippy

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Great video. That at 2:07 is pretty good too

The quote from Swedish health minister was a re-mindful one "our strategy is all about living life, not surviving". I think that is something that isnt discussed enough.

Living life, means different things to different people.

Sounds like a phrase our own PR Spin doctors would come up with TBH.

Breezin

kippy wrote: »

Living life, means different things to different people.

Sounds like a phrase our own PR Spin doctors would come up with TBH.

I think the phrase 'living life', and the sentiment, of which most people have a fundamental understanding, has been around a lot longer than spin doctors and PR. Not everything is a conspiracy.

cnocbui

Living? People are dying like flies in the UK.

10,000 more deaths than usual occurred in UK homes since June

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/10000-more-deaths-than-usual-occurred-in-uk-homes-since-june

I'm sure nothing like that is happening here. /s

Ginger n Lemon

cnocbui wrote: »

Living? People are dying like flies in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/10000-more-deaths-than-usual-occurred-in-uk-homes-since-june

I'm sure nothing like that is happening here. /s

Yes, another side effect of lockdown strategy

"Some 10,000 more deaths than usual have occurred in peoples’ private homes since mid June, long after the peak in Covid deaths, prompting fears that people may still be avoiding health services and delaying sending their loved ones to care homes."

Lockdown is a genie, that needs to be put back into the lamp ASAP.

Boggles

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Yes, another side effect of lockdown strategy

"Some 10,000 more deaths than usual have occurred in peoples’ private homes since mid June, long after the peak in Covid deaths, prompting fears that people may still be avoiding health services and delaying sending their loved ones to care homes."

Lockdown is a genie, that needs to be put back into the lamp ASAP.

It's nothing to do with Lockdown, it's families understandably pulling loved ones out of care homes and refusing to put them in because of the absolute carnage that went on them.

GT89

Boggles wrote: »

It's nothing to do with Lockdown, it's families understandably pulling loved ones out of care homes and refusing to put them in because of the absolute carnage that went on them.

Could that be to do with the abandonment and neglect of care homes by the government and the piss poor staff taken on to work in these places with no proper training.

SeaBreezes

Fantastic thread. Interesting read. And gorgeous baby

https://twitter.com/janeruffino/status/1309025112449048577?s=19

Spiderman0081

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Fantastic thread. Interesting read. And gorgeous baby

https://twitter.com/janeruffino/status/1309025112449048577?s=19

Sounds like someone doesn’t like middle class white people, especially if their middle class, and Swedish. Time for a change of scenery, maybe.

Nermal

Whinging torrent of tweets wrote: »

But there is a powerful pressure in Swedish culture to show no emotion beyond rictus-grinned self-satisfaction. Not everyone does that, of course, but the heart of the strategy was a demand to ignore anxiety.

I had to stop here. The more tweets I read, the better it sounded.

charlie14

Breezin wrote: »

What a great post.

No matter how many times it has been explained to them, there are contributors here who cling to the expression because it is their weapon of choice in promoting their viewpoint.

There are contributors here that are doing their very best to ignore what Annika Linde had to say about Sweden`s strategy in relation to herd immunity, and Giesecke and Tegnell e-mails, uncovered under freedom of information by Swedish journalist Emanuel Karlsten, in relation to the same.

Spiderman0081

charlie14 wrote: »

There are contributors here that are doing their very best to ignore what Annika Linde had to say about Sweden`s strategy in relation to herd immunity, and Giesecke and Tegnell e-mails, uncovered under freedom of information by Swedish journalist Emanuel Karlsten, in relation to the same.

Maybe if you keep mentioning this very same thing over and over again people might start listening to you or start caring about those emails.

Ginger n Lemon

Spiderman0081 wrote: »

Maybe if you keep mentioning this very same thing over and over again people might start listening to you or start caring about those emails.

Tegnell is becoming more and more like Maximus from the gladiator. Cherished. Supported and applauded. Emails wha wha

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Living? People are dying like flies in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/10000-more-deaths-than-usual-occurred-in-uk-homes-since-june

I'm sure nothing like that is happening here. /s

Difficult to know what to make of that article tbh.
The implication appears to be that there have been 10,000 home deaths in those 3 months that were due to Covid-19, but the graph shows practically no home Covid deaths during that time.
I`m not say Britain are not under reporting Covid deaths. Barring Ireland and Belgium, practically every country most likely is.

There were a few interesting points made in relation to those deaths though.
One was that "deconditioning" of older people being shielded at home due to them not being able to walking around supermarkets and garden centers as they would have normally.
There may be something to that, but I would not have thought wandering around supermarkets and garden centers during a pandemic would not be exactly conducive to their health either.

Another point I found interesting was made by David Leon, professor of epidemiology at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine that in those weeks because infections were lower,much of the excess mortality could be excluded as being due to Covid-19.

The third that I found of most interest was that made by Greg Ceely head of health index with the Office of National Statistics. He said that while it was possible that some of those home deaths were due to undiagnosed Covid-19, he also stated that "the conditions people are dying of other than Covid-19 have potentially worsened due to the person previously having Covid-19".
He cited where other countries have observed an increase in non-Covid deaths from heart-related conditions in areas where deaths from the virus occurred.

charlie14

Spiderman0081 wrote: »

Maybe if you keep mentioning this very same thing over and over again people might start listening to you or start caring about those emails.

You can ignore them all you wish, but those e-mails along with Annika Linde give lie to Sweden`s strategy not being herd immunity

Spiderman0081

charlie14 wrote: »

You can ignore them all you wish, but those e-mails along with Annika Linde give lie to Sweden`s strategy not being herd immunity

What emails?

Thierry12

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Tegnell is becoming more and more like Maximus from the gladiator. Cherished. Supported and applauded. Emails wha wha

When a man sees his end, he wants to know there was some purpose to his life

charlie14

Spiderman0081 wrote: »

What emails?

By definition I don`t believe you can claim ignorance is bliss when you are aware of facts you find unpleasant.

Spiderman0081

charlie14 wrote: »

By definition I don`t believe you can claim ignorance is bliss when you are aware of facts you find unpleasant.

Do you mean if by definition I am feeling blissful, I must then in turn be ignorant?

mcsean2163

charlie14 wrote: »

I would hope the same, but the stats in that article you linked to were not encouraging.

Sweden and France as case studies are very hopeful. More cases less deaths unless there are other factors worsening the condition of covid19 then things could be bad.