Sweden avoiding lockdown

Ginger n Lemon

SeaBreezes wrote: »

WHY OUR APPROACH WAS BETTER:


MORE PEOPLE ALIVE.
LESS LONG TERM AFFECTS.
BETTER ECONOMIC GROWTH
BETTER INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION.
LESS CHILDREN WITH MIS-C
MORE SURVIVING HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

Mmmm if only you've put your passion of typing with CAPS into actually providing a link or some figures.

Let me go, here is why I think Swedish approach is better

MORE PEOPLE ENJOY LIFE
LESS DEPRESSION, MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND FEAR
UNEMPLOYMENT IN SINGLE DIGITS
BETTER INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION FOR DOING BUSINESS WITHOUT FEARS OF LOCKDOWNS OR TRAVEL QUARANTINE
MORE CHILDREN WITH PROPER EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SKILLS
ICU CAPACITY DOUBLED SINCE MARCH

Last point is very important my friend. They've doubled their ICU. While we have given out billions of euros of PUP for people to eat dominos at home and watch netflix for 3 - 6 months.

https://www.thejournal.ie/mental-health-pandemic-psychological-society-5179679-Aug2020/

As the country faces new restrictions in response to a spike in Covid-19 cases, the paper also warns that the measures taken to disrupt the transmission of the virus also play a role in causing distress.

polesheep

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I have too. Similarly ignored.

Swedish strategy was a formalised Euthanasia of the vulnerable. I wouldnt call that winning.

Also, their economy suffered more than neighbours, 4,000 assisted deaths with morphine, 6,000 covid deaths, 150,000 longhaul covid, and only 14% pop with immunity.

Restrictions again. Why are they not immune now?

Winning. Right.

Do you not think that we have assisted deaths in Ireland? When she was dying from cancer, my mother was assisted in having a peaceful death through the administration of morphine. Thankfully, we have caring medical people who ensure that no one dies a painful death or endures unnecessary treatments.

dubrov

MORE PEOPLE ALIVE - Agreed but quite similar death rate per age group. We appear to be cacthing up slowly There is a long way to go on this yet
LESS LONG TERM AFFECTS. - Possibly but it has only been around 6 months. The media seemed to focus on this last June when daily deaths were dropping but seem to not report on it now even though cases are way up
BETTER ECONOMIC GROWTH - Very doubtful that our growth would have been worse with the Swedish model. GDP numbers in Ireland do not reflect the real economy which has been discussed several times.
BETTER INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION - I'm not sure where you get this from. I doubt the Irish approach is even on the radar in other countries.
LESS CHILDREN WITH MIS-C - Can you provide a source for this with numbers? Covid Hospitalisations and deaths appear to be pretty much zero for children (even including those with underlying health conditions)
MORE SURVIVING HEALTH CARE WORKERS. - Surely that is the same as point 1

The truth is no one knows how this will turn out. Even if the Swedish model is proven right, it doesn't mean that it was the right decision based on the known information in March.

I'd say it'll be at least next June before a realistic assessment can be made.

SeaBreezes

polesheep wrote: »

Do you not think that we have assisted deaths in Ireland? When she was dying from cancer, my mother was assisted in having a peaceful death through the administration of morphine. Thankfully, we have caring medical people who ensure that no one dies a painful death or endures unnecessary treatments.

Of course. My point was, these are deaths NOT COUNTED as covid deaths, if you were over a certain age, no ICU, no tests, but assisted death.

4,000 in 3 months is a pretty high death count, when Covid is being let rip through society. The invisible older vulnerable.

The price paid for Swedens 'winning' policy.

Ginger n Lemon

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Of course. My point was, these are deaths NOT COUNTED as covid deaths, if you were over a certain age, no ICU, no tests, but assisted death.

4,000 in 3 months is a pretty high death count, when Covid is being let rip through society. The invisible older vulnerable.

The price paid for Swedens 'winning' policy.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Jesus. I suppose some things never change

polesheep

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Of course. My point was, these are deaths NOT COUNTED as covid deaths, if you were over a certain age, no ICU, no tests, but assisted death.

4,000 in 3 months is a pretty high death count, when Covid is being let rip through society. The invisible older vulnerable.

The price paid for Swedens 'winning' policy.

But you have no evidence that they were Covid deaths.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charlie, I am a simple man, I see a good strategy - I call it out. Swedish strategy is good. Its much better than yoyo lockdowns that we have that got our nation depressed and put 1 in 6 out of work, while having 0.02% less deaths than Sweden with covid. I know you think income tax receipts are same levels as 2019 and all is rosy, but you just want to be a naive individual about it all and that cant be changed.

When you talk about emails btw, are those the emails? :pac:

On a more serious note Charlie, you never answered my point about Irish VAT receipts? Are they good? Or Irish government expenditure this year, is that going better than Sweden's?

Did Sweden increase their ICU btw? Did Ireland? Charlie these are valid questions, but I am sure you ll come out with your usual "you are a 5 year old" "I dont have time to trawl through previous posts" garbage, and who can forget the classic "Bloomberg estimated at one stage" :rolleyes:

Not that many years ago their was another connotation of thee term "simple man" so I don`t know if that is an explanation for the highlighted or just your continuous attempt as misrepresentation.
Ireland per capita has 2,281 less deaths than Sweden due to Covid-19. That is 63% less deaths than Sweden due to Covid-19 Not 0.2%. And that is with us over-counting according to HIQA.

Every country increased their ICU, but has it crossed your mind as to why Sweden increased theirs so much?
Regardless I do not know what your point is in relation to Ireland.
Are you attempting to imply Ireland`s ICU`s were over-run at the height of the crisis?

I have asked you how Sweden`s income tax returns compare to Ireland. No reply other than prevarication.
When I showed you that according to Blomberg, worldwide recognised economic analysts, that when furlough in Sweden was taken into account their unemployment figures were no better than Ireland`s.
That got more waffle, but from being asked on numerous occasions how many in Sweden were on furlough. Silence.

I really do not see the point of running around after you on every tax that comes into your head.
Epecially when you could not give a simple reply to my question on income tax.
As to VAT,Sweden has not only a different standard rate, but different reduced rate to Ireland, so a like for like basis isn`t even possible.
What I can tell you though is that in May 2020, 2 months into lockdown, Ireland collected 6.2 Billion in taxes overall. Compared to the previous year a 1.3% increase of 78 Million.
Not exactly the tax armageddon you are scrambling around attempting to imply now is it !

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

When you talk about emails btw, are those the emails? :pac:

If you are making a point about the, (20 odd I believe it was?), e-mails Tegnell delete during the period he was ping ponging e-mails with Geisecke and his Finnish counterpart on herd immunity, then you have a very valid point.

If you are somehow attempting to imply that there are no e-mails concerning herd immunity and the strategy to reach it, then I`m afraid you could not be more wrong.
Those e-mails,(at least those that were not deleted) have been in the public domain for some time now.
As have the public statements from Tegnell`s immediate precursor and a Swedish ambassador to the USA

But please don`t let it stop you pretending none of that exists.
It amuses me no end that by doing so you are attempting to cover the embarrassment of now knowing you bought that mongrel pup from your hero Giesecke.

FintanMcluskey

SeaBreezes wrote: »

WHY OUR APPROACH WAS BETTER:


MORE PEOPLE ALIVE.
LESS LONG TERM AFFECTS.
BETTER ECONOMIC GROWTH
BETTER INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION.
LESS CHILDREN WITH MIS-C
MORE SURVIVING HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

All nonsense, but better international reputation is nothing short of PC vomit.

But its all thats left to argue, the stats have won, so the counter now is this emotional nothingness

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Not that many years ago their was another connotation of thee term "simple man" so I don`t know if that is an explanation for the highlighted or just your continuous attempt as misrepresentation.
Ireland per capita has 2,281 less deaths than Sweden due to Covid-19. That is 63% less deaths than Sweden due to Covid-19 Not 0.2%. And that is with us over-counting according to HIQA.

Every country increased their ICU, but has it crossed your mind as to why Sweden increased theirs so much?
Regardless I do not know what your point is in relation to Ireland.
Are you attempting to imply Ireland`s ICU`s were over-run at the height of the crisis?

I have asked you how Sweden`s income tax returns compare to Ireland. No reply other than prevarication.
When I showed you that according to Blomberg, worldwide recognised economic analysts, that when furlough in Sweden was taken into account their unemployment figures were no better than Ireland`s.
That got more waffle, but from being asked on numerous occasions how many in Sweden were on furlough. Silence.

I really do not see the point of running around after you on every tax that comes into your head.
Epecially when you could not give a simple reply to my question on income tax.
As to VAT,Sweden has not only a different standard rate, but different reduced rate to Ireland, so a like for like basis isn`t even possible.
What I can tell you though is that in May 2020, 2 months into lockdown, Ireland collected 6.2 Billion in taxes overall. Compared to the previous year a 1.3% increase of 78 Million.
Not exactly the tax armageddon you are scrambling around attempting to imply now is it !

Ireland deaths with covid 1,800. Population 4,900,000. 0.04%

Sweden deaths with covid 5,800. Population 10,230,000. 0.06%

Charles, is above not reality/truth?

As a side note its amazing that 1 country got itself into 15-28% unemployment for 6 months + while other country hasnt even hit double digits in unemployment.


As to your tax point, are you aware that in 2020 Ireland is collecting corporation tax for the year 2019? Do you understand that the corporation tax collected by Ireland in 2021 for the year 2020 will be substantially lower?

Do you understand that VAT collected this year is down, way down. Do you know what portion of Irish tax revenue CT and VAT form? I ll give you a hint, LARGE.

PS, why would you say "What I can tell you though is that in May 2020, 2 months into lockdown, Ireland collected 6.2 Billion in taxes overall. Compared to the previous year a 1.3% increase of 78 Million" in bloody OCTOBER? This reeks of desperation of trying to avoid the glorious months of June, July, Aug and all the 20-30% shortfalls of VAT occurring in each respective months. Along with expenditure.

Ginger n Lemon

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

All nonsense, but better international reputation is nothing short of PC vomit.

But its all thats left to argue, the stats have won, so the counter now is this emotional nothingness

Fintan some people here wont listen to any reason. In fact if you read few more posts you may think that in Sweden they are asking for IMF bailout and have mass graves while in Ireland we are eradicating covid, unemployment and homelessness....

greyday

You might supply the link that proves Corporation Tax collected this year is for 2019.

SeaBreezes

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

All nonsense, but better international reputation is nothing short of PC vomit.

But its all thats left to argue, the stats have won, so the counter now is this emotional nothingness

Stats are not in Swedens favour. In fact they're rather damming. Economically, Mortality, Childrens Health and longterm.covid. And yes, I do think deliberate senicide is something to get passionate about.

But you and other posters have bought into this cult.
No benefits at all, and yet you believe.
Happily ignoring ALL the orher countries who have prioitised their people and thrived.
Whats an economy for, if not the people in it?.

China, NZ, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, Japan, South Korea, Australia. All controlled the virus and thrived.

Countries following Swedens policy USA (some states like Florida) and Brazil. Not going so well there is it?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Ireland deaths with covid 1,800. Population 4,900,000. 0.04%

Sweden deaths with covid 5,800. Population 10,230,000. 0.06%

Charles, is above not reality/truth?

As a side note its amazing that 1 country got itself into 15-28% unemployment for 6 months + while other country hasnt even hit double digits in unemployment.


As to your tax point, are you aware that in 2020 Ireland is collecting corporation tax for the year 2019? Do you understand that the corporation tax collected by Ireland in 2021 for the year 2020 will be substantially lower?

Do you understand that VAT collected this year is down, way down. Do you know what portion of Irish tax revenue CT and VAT form? I ll give you a hint, LARGE.

PS, why would you say "What I can tell you though is that in May 2020, 2 months into lockdown, Ireland collected 6.2 Billion in taxes overall. Compared to the previous year a 1.3% increase of 78 Million" in bloody OCTOBER? This reeks of desperation of trying to avoid the glorious months of June, July, Aug and all the 20-30% shortfalls of VAT occurring in each respective months. Along with expenditure.

The reality in human terms is that per capita, Sweden to date has 2,281 more deaths than Ireland due to Covid-19.
Your silly little attempts at mathematical acrobatic do not change the facts. Sweden`s deaths are 63% higher.

I see now Trump appears to be the new hero after Giesecke made a bit of a mug of you with everything being LARGE without a comparative figure of any sort to back up any of your claims.

I gave you the total tax revenue collected covering the period up until the first lockdown restrictions were lifted that showed an overall increase of 78 Million (+1.3%). Thought those returns pretty impressive considering tbh.

Yet not a single answer to any question, or any point I have made for heaven knows how long now. Still waffling on unemployment with no figure for those in Sweden on furlough either. So if you wish to make comparisons on income tax, VAT (best of lock with that) and overall tax revenue returns between Ireland and Sweden then off you go.
Surprising as it may seem to you, I do not see why I should be expected to do research for you.
When it comes to the economics of lockdown versus no lockdown, I`m happy enough with what the comparative GDP`s showed for that period.

dubrov

Forgetting about Sweden, charlie can you accept that lockdown measures have a negative impact on economic activity, employment and tax take?

tobefrank321

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I have too. Similarly ignored.

Swedish strategy was a formalised Euthanasia of the vulnerable. I wouldnt call that winning.

Also, their economy suffered more than neighbours, 4,000 assisted deaths with morphine, 6,000 covid deaths, 150,000 longhaul covid, and only 14% pop with immunity.

Restrictions again. Why are they not immune now?

Winning. Right.

Virtually every covid 19 fatality in care homes in Ireland was given an assisted death with morphine.

Unless you'd prefer they died in agony with no pain relief? You need to clarify if you think that should have been the case?

You seem clueless how end of life care is managed in this country. I will give you a hint. What happens in Sweden also happens in Ireland, UK, US, France, Germany and any humane society, helping old people to a peaceful death, rather than allow them needlessly die in agony.

Someone who thinks Sweden is the only country that gives morphine to elderly covid sufferers doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

charlie14

dubrov wrote: »

Forgetting about Sweden, charlie can you accept that lockdown measures have a negative impact on economic activity, employment and tax take?

Of course it does,, but has no lockdown during a pandemic have any less of an impact on economic activity is the real question.

Even though I believe there are myriad reasons why we cannot be compared on a like for like basis, but on lockdown versus no lockdown, economically there is only one country we can make a comparison with and that is Sweden.

GDP is one, if not the main indicator, of a country`s economic activity, and our 2nd. quarter figures on GDP, when we were in lockdown, were better than Sweden who were not.
On consumer spending. From a bank survey, ( Danske Bank I think), consumer spending in Sweden was little better than in Denmark during their lockdown.

I realise that with economies nowadays being so interlinked globally, it is much more complex than that, but I do not see where there is any evidence of Sweden benefiting economically by not having lockdown.

SeaBreezes

https://twitter.com/JoannaTeglund/status/1311723594230235138?s=19

321123

The areas in Stockholm that was the hardest hit in the spring (Rinkeby/Tensta) now have the lowest numbers. The current spread comes from the wealthy inner city areas (Östermalm) and the rich suburban areas out on the islands (Vaxholm). Both areas with little covid in the spring (compared to rest of Stockholm). It is interesting to read comments from so called "experts" that clearly haven't an actual clue on the situation in Sweden.

the incredible pudding

Except those with Covid are included in the statistics, thus the annoying delays in the reports that people still can't seem to understand. This has been discussed many times.

After browsing through that Twitter feed, I'm inclined to take her statements with the same pinch of salt as the paranoid anti-maskers. From one extreme to the other.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

The reality in human terms is that per capita, Sweden to date has 2,281 more deaths than Ireland due to Covid-19.
Your silly little attempts at mathematical acrobatic do not change the facts. Sweden`s deaths are 63% higher.

I see now Trump appears to be the new hero after Giesecke made a bit of a mug of you with everything being LARGE without a comparative figure of any sort to back up any of your claims.

Charlie, is below correct?

Ireland deaths with covid 1,800. Population 4,900,000. 0.04%

Sweden deaths with covid 5,800. Population 10,230,000. 0.06%

greyday

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charlie, is below correct?

Ireland deaths with covid 1,800. Population 4,900,000. 0.04%

Sweden deaths with covid 5,800. Population 10,230,000. 0.06%

Any chance of the link for the corporation tax Ginger, apologies but I can't locate it myself.

Ginger n Lemon

greyday wrote: »

Any chance of the link for the corporation tax Ginger, apologies but I can't locate it myself.

You want me to provide a link that shows that CT collected in 2020 is for periods up to 31/12/2019?

Can you explain why? You think CT collected in 2020 are for periods ending in 2020? Companies helping the state and paying CT in advance?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charlie, is below correct?

Ireland deaths with covid 1,800. Population 4,900,000. 0.04%

Sweden deaths with covid 5,800. Population 10,230,000. 0.06%

From reading that I was obviously incorrect in one post.
When I said "more like a petulant 5 year old with every passing day" I was being over generous on age.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

From reading that I was obviously incorrect in one post.
When I said "more like a petulant 5 year old with every passing day" I was being over generous on age.

Speechless. You cant answer 1 question.

Very poor.

Charlie, is below correct?

Ireland deaths with covid 1,800. Population 4,900,000. 0.04%

Sweden deaths with covid 5,800. Population 10,230,000. 0.06%

Allinall

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You want me to provide a link that shows that CT collected in 2020 is for periods up to 31/12/2019?

Can you explain why? You think CT collected in 2020 are for periods ending in 2020? Companies helping the state and paying CT in advance?

This is exactly what happens.

Most of the CT collected in 2020 will be for periods ending in 2020.

It's called "Preliminary Tax".


https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax-payment-and-filing/preliminary-ct.aspx

SeaBreezes

the incredible pudding wrote: »

Except those with Covid are included in the statistics, thus the annoying delays in the reports that people still can't seem to understand. This has been discussed many times.

After browsing through that Twitter feed, I'm inclined to take her statements with the same pinch of salt as the paranoid anti-maskers. From one extreme to the other.

Shes definately not a fan of Tegnell but backs up ALL her stats.

No arguing with the statistical truth.

SeaBreezes

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Speechless. You cant answer 1 question.

Very poor.

Charlie, is below correct?

Ireland deaths with covid 1,800. Population 4,900,000. 0.04%

Sweden deaths with covid 5,800. Population 10,230,000. 0.06%

Not correct. Deaths FROM covid. Add another 4,000 to swedens deaths WITH covid.

Ginger n Lemon

Allinall wrote: »

This is exactly what happens.

Most of the CT collected in 2020 will be for periods ending in 2020.

It's called "Preliminary Tax".


https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax-payment-and-filing/preliminary-ct.aspx

We both know that CT paid up to November 2020 is for 2019.

Large companies
Large companies can pay their preliminary CT in two instalments when their accounting period is longer than seven months.

The first instalment is due on the 23rd of the sixth month of the accounting period. The amount due is either:

50% of the CT liability for the previous accounting period
45% of the CT liability for the current accounting period.
The second instalment is due on the 23rd of the eleventh month. This will bring the preliminary tax up to 90% of the final tax due for the current accounting period.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/corporation-tax-for-companies/corporation-tax-payment-and-filing/when-is-preliminary-ct-due.aspx

Most companies pay prior year tax for the current period, as its too difficult to estimate the 45% of current.

As I said, in 2020 so far we have been collecting CT 2019 tax.

I dont know if you left this part conveniently out of your post, I ll give you benefit of the doubt.

Ginger n Lemon

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Not correct. Deaths FROM covid. Add another 4,000 to swedens deaths WITH covid.

You better inform Johns Hopkins university asap, Sweden under counting deaths how dare they. :rolleyes: