Sweden avoiding lockdown

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

She sounds like an absolute loon. Not sure why you feel the need to keep posting her tweets as if it adds anything factual to this.

She implied Sweden was the only country in the world that used assisted dying for elderly covid 19. That's false.

She quotes the died of covid figure for the US and then died of covid 19 and with covid 19 in Sweden and comes up with a higher figure for Sweden than the US. She didn't compare like with like.

She's just posting bogus stats at this stage.

Why is it bogus then, explain your argument. Thank you

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

Why is it bogus then, explain your argument. Thank you

1. She said or implied Sweden is the only country in the world with assisted dying for elderly covid 19 sufferers. What does she think happens in other countries? Are they some kind of barbarians that allow elderly people die agonizing deaths?

2. She listed "died of covid" stats in the US. She then lists died of PLUS died with covid stats for Sweden. At least compare like with like. There is a big difference between someone dying of and dying with covid 19. You wouldn't say someone died of a flu if they had the flu but also got run over crossing the road or died from something else.

She's a loon.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

1. She said or implied Sweden is the only country in the world with assisted dying for elderly covid 19 sufferers. What does she think happens in other countries? Are they some kind of barbarians that allow elderly people die agonizing deaths?

2. She listed "died of covid" stats in the US. She then lists died of PLUS died with covid stats for Sweden. At least compare like with like. There is a big difference between someone dying of and dying with covid 19. You wouldn't say someone died of a flu if they had the flu but also got run over crossing the road or died from something else.

She's a loon.

Thanks for answering.

So let's go.

1- Got any proof of other countries doing this? Because what has been happening is doctors having to make a decision on who to save in case there's only one respirator available and that's very different from directly "putting to sleep" elderly that have covid while there are still plenty of medical resources available. Also on this there's actual Swedish doctors reporting this to international organizations calling for investigations into this.

2 - Your argument is invalid. I'm Asthmatic since I was 6 months old with it pretty controlled, two inhalers and tablets every day. if I get covid and die I won't be dying of Asthma I will be dying because of covid. On the same page if I get a cold and flu and died I will die of cold and the flu not of Asthma. Because Asthma is controlled, but the implications from the virus leads to an exacerbation of the underlying condition and therefore to my death. On that topic too, WHO has mentioned last few days that deaths might be being under reported which is normal during a pandemic (same thing happened with the Spanish Flu) it will take a few years for having actual reports showing how many deaths and actual percentages of how many actually died. And fair enough maybe it's even over reported atm, but only in a few years that will be fully clear after assessing the whole bunch of data. This is normal in the scientific process.
The reason why it may be under or over reported is because with the confusion of so many sources reporting information there may be a case of info getting either lost or double reported. This can happen often in such a fast pacing changing environment. Case in point when in the middle of the pandemic France was not officially reporting cases in care homes. And that's why you have that enormous spike as when this was detected it was then reported.

3 - Using ad hominem attacks does not make you right in anything. Speaks more about you than anyone on twitter. When you point a finger at someone, there' three others pointing at you. You are free to call anyone whatever you want but that will not constitute a logical, factual argument fundamented in actual data.

Ginger n Lemon

Vieira82 wrote: »

Thanks for answering.

So let's go.

1- Got any proof of other countries doing this? Because what has been happening is doctors having to make a decision on who to save in case there's only one respirator available and that's very different from directly "putting to sleep" elderly that have covid while there are still plenty of medical resources available. Also on this there's actual Swedish doctors reporting this to international organizations calling for investigations into this.

2 - Your argument is invalid. I'm Asthmatic since I was 6 months old with it pretty controlled, two inhalers and tablets every day. if I get covid and die I won't be dying of Asthma I will be dying because of covid. On the same page if I get a cold and flu and died I will die of cold and the flu not of Asthma. Because Asthma is controlled, but the implications from the virus leads to an exacerbation of the underlying condition and therefore to my death. On that topic too, WHO has mentioned last few days that deaths might be being under reported which is normal during a pandemic (same thing happened with the Spanish Flu) it will take a few years for having actual reports showing how many deaths and actual percentages of how many actually died. And fair enough maybe it's even over reported atm, but only in a few years that will be fully clear after assessing the whole bunch of data. This is normal in the scientific process.
The reason why it may be under or over reported is because with the confusion of so many sources reporting information there may be a case of info getting either lost or double reported. This can happen often in such a fast pacing changing environment. Case in point when in the middle of the pandemic France was not officially reporting cases in care homes. And that's why you have that enormous spike as when this was detected it was then reported.

3 - Using ad hominem attacks does not make you right in anything. Speaks more about you than anyone on twitter. When you point a finger at someone, there' three others pointing at you. You are free to call anyone whatever you want but that will not constitute a logical, factual argument fundamented in actual data.

That is a very interesting post.

She is a loon.

Vieira82

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

That is a very interesting post.

She is a loon.

Kool, you're an asshole then.

charlie14

Bit cynical wrote: »

Well I don't think anyone has claimed herd immunity as such, however if a section of a population isolates themselves then you might get partial immunity in the non-isolating section, causing fall in infections in that section after an initial rise. Then, when the isolating section emerges from isolation, the formerly isolating group pick up the infection and the pattern repeats but with this smaller group.

With the number of new cases,especially in Stockholm, it`s not so much herd immunity. It`s questionable what level of immunity there is, or of what use it actually is in relation to this virus.



In fairness to the Swedish authorities six weeks ago they appear to have thought the same when they announced they had signed a deal for 6 million doses with an option to buy a fur,ther 2 million and intended to purchase a further 10 million with the intention, subject to the vaccines gaining approval, to begin vaccinations as early as the beginning of next year.


They appear to have perhaps pulled a bit of a stroke with the 6 million and the further 2 million option with their confidence they will get those doses so soon. But then the company is AstraZeneca which is Anglo/Swedish.
A bit ironic as one of the reasons they gave for not using lockdown was because they had no belief there would be a vaccine for years.

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

Thanks for answering.

So let's go.

1- Got any proof of other countries doing this? Because what has been happening is doctors having to make a decision on who to save in case there's only one respirator available and that's very different from directly "putting to sleep" elderly that have covid while there are still plenty of medical resources available. Also on this there's actual Swedish doctors reporting this to international organizations calling for investigations into this.

2 - Your argument is invalid. I'm Asthmatic since I was 6 months old with it pretty controlled, two inhalers and tablets every day. if I get covid and die I won't be dying of Asthma I will be dying because of covid. On the same page if I get a cold and flu and died I will die of cold and the flu not of Asthma. Because Asthma is controlled, but the implications from the virus leads to an exacerbation of the underlying condition and therefore to my death. On that topic too, WHO has mentioned last few days that deaths might be being under reported which is normal during a pandemic (same thing happened with the Spanish Flu) it will take a few years for having actual reports showing how many deaths and actual percentages of how many actually died. And fair enough maybe it's even over reported atm, but only in a few years that will be fully clear after assessing the whole bunch of data. This is normal in the scientific process.
The reason why it may be under or over reported is because with the confusion of so many sources reporting information there may be a case of info getting either lost or double reported. This can happen often in such a fast pacing changing environment. Case in point when in the middle of the pandemic France was not officially reporting cases in care homes. And that's why you have that enormous spike as when this was detected it was then reported.

3 - Using ad hominem attacks does not make you right in anything. Speaks more about you than anyone on twitter. When you point a finger at someone, there' three others pointing at you. You are free to call anyone whatever you want but that will not constitute a logical, factual argument fundamented in actual data.

Honestly is there any point continuing after this question? You don't understand end of life scenarios so what's the point? You probably think elderly covid sufferers here get covid and drop dead. Find someone who works in a nursing home or better still a doctor and let them explain it to you.

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

Kool, you're an asshole then.

Well that went south fast.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

With the number of new cases,especially in Stockholm, it`s not so much herd immunity. It`s questionable what level of immunity there is, or of what use it actually is in relation to this virus.



In fairness to the Swedish authorities six weeks ago they appear to have thought the same when they announced they had signed a deal for 6 million doses with an option to buy a fur,ther 2 million and intended to purchase a further 10 million with the intention, subject to the vaccines gaining approval, to begin vaccinations as early as the beginning of next year.


They appear to have perhaps pulled a bit of a stroke with the 6 million and the further 2 million option with their confidence they will get those doses so soon. But then the company is AstraZeneca which is Anglo/Swedish.
A bit ironic as one of the reasons they gave for not using lockdown was because they had no belief there would be a vaccine for years.

Charlie, you need to read some of the latest news from Sweden. I find www.thelocal.se useful. There's daily stories of how Tegnell etc are concerned by rising cases and them bringing in new restrictions but still not closing down pubs and restaurants. I think they view coronavirus as serious but not serious enough to shut everything down. I think they have the balance right.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Charlie, you need to read some of the latest news from Sweden. I find www.thelocal.se useful. There's daily stories of how Tegnell etc are concerned by rising cases and them bringing in new restrictions but still not closing down pubs and restaurants. I think they view coronavirus as serious but not serious enough to shut everything down. I think they have the balance right.

I think they are so far down the road they are on that they are to stubborn at this stage to even consider changing tbh. Even if they did I doubt they would be even able to enforce any new restrictions.

A lot of that balance was placed on immunity. Whether people accept that or not, is up to them, but I have no doubt at this stage the immunity angle was used to sell their strategy to the public. At this stage immunity at any significant level, or indeed at any level, looks as far away as the first day.

I see they have changed the advice on households if someone in a household tests positive, but bizarrely Tegnell is still looking for full compliance with school attendance. Sound a bit pig headed to me.
Would it really make that much difference to a child`s education to take a week or two off to quarantine ?
Not sure if they have gone ahead with opening care homes to visitors since the 1st. October. I hope they have, because it would be insanity not too.


Mention of The Local, which I do actually follow,even if I find it at times some off their coverage a bit puff piece on articles in that it can be very unquestioning.
I saw an article there that said when Sweden are calculating their Ro number, they do not count those who tested positive who have mild conditions. I asked another poster from Sweden earlier if they knew if that was correct, but heard nothing back.
Do you by any chance know if there is any truth to that article ?

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Honestly is there any point continuing after this question? You don't understand end of life scenarios so what's the point? You probably think elderly covid sufferers here get covid and drop dead. Find someone who works in a nursing home or better still a doctor and let them explain it to you.

I find it funny that in your lack of arguments the only thing you have is to try and attack my intellect. I am well aware of what palliative care is, having had three family members and family friends dying of cancer. But THAT is not what we are talking about here.

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/coronavirus-sweden-200-doctors-scientists-challenge-swedens-official-version-of-events/news-story/ba031ff738ded42bc5e5d8de77bca11d

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1onuy8B8zXg1wvhhZATm12Tv4xgQivktJ/view?fbclid=IwAR1V7E2GczDABbbnElj8fl1Kbe8flK8842SVkXUoeQIHMC_BMn9yFtmTe3k

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ISkBwn4zjrNs1K9NcRf_varZ3LKMlnTK/view?fbclid=IwAR1mVLz8Lvv-SmIdf-BkUVlMop0QET1KQ5SwEjjEXaw-uMhwAbvkCzS2JKk

In very simple terms, I am not a doctor or a scientist and I have no problem admitting my ignorance to it. However having studied a science myself, I do follow what is the scientific and medical consensus and what is happening in Sweden is not consensual at all because:

a) They are far from Herd Immunity (look at the recent spike in cases)

b) They are far from consensual even inside the Swedish Medical Community

In terms of actual scientific data I am still waiting for one single article proving herd immunity is actual based in scientific data and effective.

This is not the first pandemic we've faced at all and we have History to show how herd immunity actually works and it is always a long journey of years, decades even (black plague) and it's always on the offset of loads of people dying. And yes I am aware our hygiene is better and we do have medical advances now. Though we have already 1 Million deaths reported, which in comparisson with the Spanish Flu first wave is already way higher than that one.

If you want to go down that road you can clearly see the bulk of deaths of the Spanish Flu hapenned deep in the Second Wave in October, November and December. Which is what the WHO has been saying for a month that will happen in Europe.

And for this you don't need a scientific degree, all you need is simple maths, if there's more cases means more people will end up in hospital and end up dying. If you curb the numbers you can even eradicate the pandemic. But well.. the economy is more important than peoples lives in todays world.

And not to mention the lasting side effects that this brings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KAVV4p2bF8&t=3s

I really just have to ask... is herd immunity really that important if you get then a workforce with lasting health consequences?


But let's talk about something simple, Evolution.
This Virus is according to the data the perfect, adapted virus to our lives. It's not a simple flu or the Bubonic Plague. It reached around the world because it's set of genetics is perfectly adapted to spread in our current world. From everything, from the incubation period (5 to 14 days) to mild symptoms in the first stages (makes you think you have something light and not a deadly virus) to how it can stay latent in peoples bodies for ages and then comeback. And as well the way it affects lungs, hearth, joints and even muscles. Basically it affects directly what we've been improving through better healthcare and hygiene habits for centuries and that is absolutely impressive from the evolutionary prespective and that is why anyone with two scientific brain cells understands how serious this is and how future virus will evolve to perfectly adapt to our lifestyles.

So in this context, herd immunity is nothing more than a joke. And again, no country has achieved it.

LASTLY. This conference from the WHO https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?extid=PPlCBraUANDJTJPr&v=613855985950549&ref=watch_permalink

Doctor Mike Ryan from 1 hour into the video, clearly explains that there are countries that have successfully curbed the virus, we just don't hear it in the news and those countries are what we should be following and not Sweden at all.

dubrov

Without a vaccine, curbing the virus is pointless.

charlie14

dubrov wrote: »

Without a vaccine, curbing the virus is pointless.

There are at least three vaccines nearing the conclusion of Phase 3 trials at present, with more also at the Phase 3 trial stage.
At least two of these are confident of completing Phase 3 before years end where they will then be scrutinised for safety and efficacy by the relevant authorities before being licensed.

The Swedish authorities appear to be confident on at least one of these vaccines, (AstraZeneca), having announced they have pre-ordered 6 million with an option on another 2 million and intend to begin vaccinations early next year.

Curbing any virus will save lives. So does it not make sense, seeing as they have pre-ordered and appear confident that they will actually get this quantity, (and a bump ahead of everyone due to AstraZeneca being part Swedish owned), to curb this virus as much as possible ?

At the very least until the safety and efficacy levels of those vaccines nearing the end of Phase 3 are know

SeaBreezes

Heres media fact check sweden tweet.
Maybe youd be more comfortable with their fact checks?

WARNING: More Loons who are not comfortable with letting the virus run riot.


https://twitter.com/KeBeMeWas19/status/1311969114752253952?s=19

SeaBreezes

More loons..

https://twitter.com/saveswedencov19/status/1311706798739644416?s=19

mcsean2163

cnocbui wrote: »

Things are not bad in Australia and haven't been at any point.

Australia has 5 times the population of Ireland. It's one of the great success stories. It's pandemic death rate is one tenth that of Ireland's:



Australia's chart is in green because it's in the 'almost there' category, while Ireland is in red because it's in trouble.
https://www.endcoronavirus.org/countries

IMHO, Australia was really bad in that the case fatality rate was very high. Similar to us last April.

I really need to update our preprint. We've been in touch with the professor who did this.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344270570_Positive_association_between_COVID-19_deaths_and_influenza_vaccination_rates_in_elderly_people_worldwide

That's essentially the first half of our preprint. I've emailed minister for health etc., That's hardly the reason they're panicking tonight.

I think we need a full season of covid19 to be confident the risk has reduced significantly. Anyway, the above is a correlation many have raised concern over. Japan is very interesting, read about seiken and then read what is popular in America's, Australia, Europe and s Africa.

cnocbui

mcsean2163 wrote: »

IMHO, Australia was really bad in that the case fatality rate was very high. Similar to us last April.

I really need to update our preprint. We've been in touch with the professor who did this.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344270570_Positive_association_between_COVID-19_deaths_and_influenza_vaccination_rates_in_elderly_people_worldwide

That's essentially the first half of our preprint. I've emailed minister for health etc., That's hardly the reason they're panicking tonight.

I think we need a full season of covid19 to be confident the risk has reduced significantly. Anyway, the above is a correlation many have raised concern over. Japan is very interesting, read about seiken and then read what is popular in America's, Australia, Europe and s Africa.

I have already pointed out that Australia's mortality rate is 1/10th that of Ireland, so could you please explain your statement, because it's at odds with any data I have seen.

Australia leads world in COVID-19 ICU survival rates
...
Data gathered and shared by Australia’s leading intensive medicine experts shows that even the sickest of these patients – those requiring mechanical ventilation and specialist nursing in an intensive care unit – have very good survival rates compared with other countries.
...
As of last Friday, a total of 214 confirmed COVID-19 patients had been admitted to ICUs since the start of the pandemic. Of the 200 cases where the outcome is known, 170 survived and 30 died.

Of 118 patients placed on mechanical ventilators, 78 per cent have survived.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/best-doctors-and-nurses-australia-leads-world-in-covid-19-icu-survival-rates-20200714-p55byq.html

What is Ireland's mechanical ventilator survival rate?

I have first hand experience of both the Australian and Irish health systems. Australia's is at the high end of first world systems, Ireland's I would rate as second rate, being generous.

mcsean2163

Ok apologies. I was referring to recent deaths versus Ireland, France etc

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

They had a significant rise in deaths the second time around.

Please put aside that erroneous comment.

bb1234567

Australia has quite a high case fatality rate because there were large outbreaks in nursing homes in Melbourne. The total number of deaths nationally per capita is not high though as the outbreak was shortlived and only in one city

mcsean2163

Comments on the following would be appreciated.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344270570_Positive_association_between_COVID-19_deaths_and_influenza_vaccination_rates_in_elderly_people_worldwide

biko

Sewer water virus detection show Corona levels almost as high as during the spring.
https://www.dn.se/sthlm/avloppsvattnet-visar-att-coronaviruset-okar-kraftigt-i-stockholm/
https://www.kth.se/aktuellt/nyheter/avloppsvatten-visar-stor-okning-av-covid-19-i-stockholm-1.1016275

Spiderman0081

biko wrote: »

Sewer water virus detection show Corona levels almost as high as during the spring.
https://www.dn.se/sthlm/avloppsvattnet-visar-att-coronaviruset-okar-kraftigt-i-stockholm/

I’ll have to stop drinking it

ceadaoin.

biko wrote: »

Sewer water virus detection show Corona levels almost as high as during the spring.
https://www.dn.se/sthlm/avloppsvattnet-visar-att-coronaviruset-okar-kraftigt-i-stockholm/
https://www.kth.se/aktuellt/nyheter/avloppsvatten-visar-stor-okning-av-covid-19-i-stockholm-1.1016275

But covid patients in ICU is remaining flat and no where near spring levels according to the graph

kippy

ceadaoin. wrote: »

But covid patients in ICU is remaining flat and no where near spring levels according to the graph

Most likely due to the age groups involved.

biko

If you're in a certain category you're not getting into ICU. It's been discussed earlier in thread.
Besides, you can have lots and lots of cases where people only get mild or no symptoms at all.

jaykay74

The 7 day rolling average of deaths has been steady at around 3 (plus or minus 1 generally) since the beginning of August.

charlie14

kippy wrote: »

Most likely due to the age groups involved.

Most likely, but from what both ourselves and Sweden have learned is the difficulty of preventing the spread to other age groups where the mortality rate is higher.
Sweden have been lauded here for their many mea culpas for allowing that to happen in care home, yet with infections rising they have still gone ahead with opening care homes to visitors last Thursday.

Ginger n Lemon

Charlie this 1 is for you

Particular parts at 12:40 and 13:19.

Charlie when will we have that? Also, what are your thoughts about Swedish average weekly covid deaths number at 3 for the past 6 weeks? Pretty good?

Bit cynical

biko wrote: »

If you're in a certain category you're not getting into ICU. It's been discussed earlier in thread.
Besides, you can have lots and lots of cases where people only get mild or no symptoms at all.

Deaths also very low and flat for the last several weeks.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charlie this 1 is for you

Particular parts at 12:40 and 13:19.

Charlie when will we have that? Also, what are your thoughts about Swedish average weekly covid deaths number at 3 for the past 6 weeks? Pretty good?

Who can tell anymore with Sweden and figures. Even Worldometers gave up months ago.

For 10 days from 22nd.Sept to 2nd.Oct. they reported 25 deaths. Now it`s 13. Even at that it`s still greater than your 3 a week.

Even The Local.se is confused. Speculating that it is possibly to do with Sweden only counting a Covid-19 deaths if a death is within 30 days of being confirmed as Covid-19 positive. May be worth considering though that the rise in numbers are mostly for the last 2 weeks, not 6, and we know that it can be some time before the mortality rate becomes known. Hopefully they will be nowhere near Sweden`s present 6.25%

If there is one thing we can take from their numbers, it`s that with close to 7,000 new cases in the last fortnight a lot of the hype on immunity prior to the last 2 weeks was misplaced.