Sweden avoiding lockdown

Beasty

Just to remind everyone. I know it says so in the title, but the topic is Sweden, not Slovakia or the Czech Republic

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

Just to remind everyone. I know it says so in the title, but the topic is Sweden, not Slovakia or the Czech Republic

All those blonde haired blue eyed Europeans look the same to me

Scoondal

Sweden doing better than Ireland. Daily cases 700 to 800. Ireland 800-1200. But Sweden has double the population.
Okay ... here comes more personal abuse ... yikes.

charlie14

Scoondal wrote: »

Sweden doing better than Ireland. Daily cases 700 to 800. Ireland 800-1200. But Sweden has double the population.
Okay ... here comes more personal abuse ... yikes.

I believe Sweden may have exceeded 1,000 today. Not that it really matters.
Basically what you say is true, but a poster here recently (who is in general pro the Swedish strategy), made the point that Sweden is two weeks behind us in the recent rise in cases.

Scoondal

charlie14 wrote: »

I believe Sweden may have exceeded 1,000 today. Not that it really matters.
Basically what you say is true, but a poster here recently (who is in general pro the Swedish strategy), made the point that Sweden is two weeks behind us in the recent rise in cases.

Okay, I didn't know that.

Spiderman0081

[Deleted User] wrote: »

All those blonde haired blue eyed Europeans look the same to me

That’s racist. Or is it?

99nsr125

charlie14 wrote: »

I believe Sweden may have exceeded 1,000 today. Not that it really matters.
Basically what you say is true, but a poster here recently (who is in general pro the Swedish strategy), made the point that Sweden is two weeks behind us in the recent rise in cases.

"Not that it really matters"

Of course it doesn't matter when you are wrong

charlie14

99nsr125 wrote: »

"Not that it really matters"

Of course it doesn't matter when you are wrong

I could explain to you why I used that phrase, but honestly I could not be arsed.

Perhaps for once you would answer a question and tell me where you believe I am wrong.
Were Sweden`s new cases today over 1,000 or not, and if not what were they.

99nsr125

charlie14 wrote: »

I could explain to you why I used that phrase, but honestly I could not be arsed.

Perhaps for once you would answer a question and tell me where you believe I am wrong.
Were Sweden`s new cases today over 1,000 or not, and if not what were they.

Lol, you contradict yourself and want me to explain it, it would be tragic if it wasn't so funny.

Well here goes, you can't be 'arsed' because the realisation of the fallacy in your position is too much to accept.

How about you explain why the case count doesn't matter now when it did so much before.

Simply you are wrong in your assesment of the Swedish approach.

Nobody's falling for your conflation of your fallacy on Sweden with stating of a case number, this is the method of someone without strength in their argument that seeks to deflect from their weak position.

Vieira82

99nsr125 wrote: »

Lol, you contradict yourself and want me to explain it, it would be tragic if it wasn't so funny.

Well here goes, you can't be 'arsed' because the realisation of the fallacy in your position is too much to accept.

How about you explain why the case count doesn't matter now when it did so much before.

Simply you are wrong in your assesment of the Swedish approach.

Nobody's falling for your conflation of your fallacy on Sweden with stating of a case number, this is the method of someone without strength in their argument that seeks to deflect from their weak position.

Bla bla bla... and then Charlie IS RIGHT! There where actually more than a thousand cases reported yesterday

So all the bull****tery you're writing is exactly about yourself.

Source: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html?fbclid=IwAR3U9uMTc0gse2DSwrUPiIJDKx7ZhuypRDentQKwg5R285ylls66z_ImPp8#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

I believe Sweden may have exceeded 1,000 today. Not that it really matters.
Basically what you say is true, but a poster here recently (who is in general pro the Swedish strategy), made the point that Sweden is two weeks behind us in the recent rise in cases.

And how does that fit with the current overall picture?

On the brink of disaster': New COVID-19 cases in Europe hit 100,000 a day

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/russia-poland-and-iran-hit-new-respective-coronavirus-records-20201014-p5657a.html

In the broader picture it looks like Sweden is doing very well compared to the meltdown in Czechia, the Netherlands and France. Even Germany is getting nervous.

To me this just sheets home that lockdowns don't work and should be abandoned because they are economically and socially unsustainable and are never going to eliminate the virus, except in a few cases with a substantial geographical upper hand like New Zealand.

mcsean2163

Saw the mod note, last off topic post.

Law abiding Thai citizens:

https://www.wionews.com/world/thousands-protest-in-bangkok-defy-thai-governments-emergency-decree-335598?utm_source=izooto&utm_medium=push_notifications&utm_campaign=Thailand%20protests&utm_content=&utm_term=

cnocbui

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Saw the mod note, last off topic post.

Law abiding Thai citizens:

https://www.wionews.com/world/thousands-protest-in-bangkok-defy-thai-governments-emergency-decree-335598?utm_source=izooto&utm_medium=push_notifications&utm_campaign=Thailand%20protests&utm_content=&utm_term=

Looks like every group of secondary students in this country outside shops near their schools, getting their lunch; minus the face masks of course.

beauf

cnocbui wrote: »

...
To me this just sheets home that lockdowns don't work and should be abandoned because they are economically and socially unsustainable and are never going to eliminate the virus, except in a few cases with a substantial geographical upper hand like New Zealand.

In fairness we should also have a substantial geographical advantage. We just threw it away.

greenfield21

beauf wrote: »

In fairness we should also have a substantial geographical advantage. We just threw it away.

I haven't looked at the data but is there also a high amount of jobs where people can work from home, civil service, multinationals agriculture in this country. Anybody compared this with other countries.

tobefrank321

SeaBreezes wrote: »

And sweden doesnt test the elderly, just uses morphine.
Those deaths dont count as covid deaths in their stats.

Source for any of this BS ??

Seems like you can post anything on here without bothering with links, sources or articles.

Check my posting history for some tips. I always try to back up statements with links to articles or sources, unlike you.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

I believe Sweden may have exceeded 1,000 today. Not that it really matters.
Basically what you say is true, but a poster here recently (who is in general pro the Swedish strategy), made the point that Sweden is two weeks behind us in the recent rise in cases.

FFS. How many times does it need to be explained to you that Sweden has over twice our population? 1225 cases here is the equivalent to about 2600 cases there. Yes they are way behind.

average_runner

One thing to remember, Sweden might have a bigger population than us but the two regions badly affected has a pop of 2m combined.


Rest of Sweden is very remote, so wouldnt use 10m as a guideline for facts

tobefrank321

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Czech Republic is a weird one. They didn't really have a wave of deaths in the spring. Worst day for deaths back then was 15. This could be their wave now.

Not that weird. Whereas countries like Sweden and particularly cities like Stockholm suffered badly in the first wave such places will benefit from at least some herd immunity this time around. Czech Rep will not. The harder the lockdown first time around the worse the second wave. Hungary and Poland now also in trouble.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

And how does that fit with the current overall picture?

Accurately I would have thought. Rising cases like everywhere else.


Any chance you could reply to my query as to your post to me where it was not clear what you were attempting to say.
Are you saying that herd immunity for measles and flu were naturally acquired without vaccination ?

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

FFS. How many times does it need to be explained to you that Sweden has over twice our population? 1225 cases here is the equivalent to about 2600 cases there. Yes they are way behind.

And FFS will you read what I said rather than like a few here imagine what I said. I did not say, nor did I even suggest, that at present on a like for like basis we were doing any better than Sweden in new cases.
I said that (and something you yourself I believe pointed out) Sweden are way behind us in the time frame and their numbers are rising.

Quackster

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Not that weird. Whereas countries like Sweden and particularly cities like Stockholm suffered badly in the first wave such places will benefit from at least some herd immunity this time around. Czech Rep will not. The harder the lockdown first time around the worse the second wave. Hungary and Poland now also in trouble.

This is true, but with the qualification that six months down the line, a lot more is known about the virus, there are approved treatments available and health systems have had plenty of forewarning.

So, all these things considered, one would expect a significantly lower mortally rate at this stage than back in March/April. And therefore countries that dodged the bullet back then should end up having lower overall levels of mortality by the end of this, even if they get hit hard now.

charlie14

99nsr125 wrote: »

Lol, you contradict yourself and want me to explain it, it would be tragic if it wasn't so funny.

Well here goes, you can't be 'arsed' because the realisation of the fallacy in your position is too much to accept.

How about you explain why the case count doesn't matter now when it did so much before.

Simply you are wrong in your assesment of the Swedish approach.

Nobody's falling for your conflation of your fallacy on Sweden with stating of a case number, this is the method of someone without strength in their argument that seeks to deflect from their weak position.

I said I could not be arsed explaining "not that it really matters" to you because I believed it was obvious. But seeing as yet again you are off on a flight of fantasy I have to waste my time doing so.
I said "not that it really matters" because like everywhere else Sweden`s numbers are rising, (btw they were over 1,000 for yesterday the one question I actually asked you but true to form you ignored), and compared to Ireland there is a time lag of a few weeks.



As to this fallacy you mention you somehow believe I have.
I could go through chapter and verse on deaths, herd immunity, economics, unemployment figures etc. as to the fallacy of the Swedish strategy but I have learned enough from interacting with you it would just be yet another waste of my time and ignored.

mcsean2163

Quackster wrote: »

This is true, but with the qualification that six months down the line, a lot more is known about the virus, there are approved treatments available and health systems have had plenty of forewarning.

So, all these things considered, one would expect a significantly lower mortally rate at this stage than back in March/April. And therefore countries that dodged the bullet back then should end up having lower overall levels of mortality by the end of this, even if they get hit hard now.

No new treatments approved in the HSE as far as I know.

Maybe different in Sweden?

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

In all honesty I have no idea what point you are making.
Are you saying we have developed naturally acquired herd immunity for measles and influenza without vaccines ?

Why do you have to be so combative and dishonest? I did not say or claim anything about herd immunity in relation to measels and influenza. The claim was made by Professor Angus Dalgleish and was made in his eviceration of that idiot Matt Hancock, whoom you seem to admire because his ignorant stance aligns so well with your own.

The truth is, we do have herd immunity against influenza and for measles.

While there is also an effective vaccine for the latter, herd immunity plays a vital part in protecting babies until they can be given the vaccine at a year old.

But I'll humour you anyway. I have had measels, chicken pox, mumps and influenza on two occasions without doubt, and probably another two occasions as well. So I personally have some herd immunity to both measels and influenza and many others in my age cohort likely would as well as we pre-date the vaccines. These days people are more likely to get their immunity from the end of a needle but once innoculated, they form a part of the herd, meaning that in general, these diseases can not run rampant because the population in general has herd level immunity.

Some of that immunity was acquired naturally, so yes, part of the herd immunity for these diseases was naturally acquired.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Why do you have to be so combative and dishonest? I did not say or claim anything about herd immunity in relation to measels and influenza. The claim was made by Professor Angus Dalgleish and was made in his eviceration of that idiot Matt Hancock, whoom you seem to admire because his ignorant stance aligns so well with your own.



But I'll humour you anyway. I have had measels, chicken pox, mumps and influenza on two occasions without doubt, and probably another two occasions as well. So I personally have some herd immunity to both measels and influenza and many others in my age cohort likely would as well as we pre-date the vaccines. These days people are more likely to get their immunity from the end of a needle but once innoculated, they form a part of the herd, meaning that in general, these diseases can not run rampant because the population in general has herd level immunity.

Some of that immunity was acquired naturally, so yes, part of the herd immunity for these diseases was naturally acquired.

I was being neither combative or dishonest.
In fact with your reply and your history of jumping all over anything I post nitpicking then perhaps it might be an idea to look to yourself in those areas.

I had no idea as to what you were trying to say.
Best I could make from it was herd immunity for measles and flu.
I simply asked you if you believed herd immunity had been achieved for both without a vaccine.
Best I can do again from your reply is it would not have been.
If that is what you are saying then I agree, and I do not see how it will be any different with this virus.

99nsr125

Vieira82 wrote: »

Bla bla bla... and then Charlie IS RIGHT! There where actually more than a thousand cases reported yesterday

So all the bull****tery you're writing is exactly about yourself.

Source: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html?fbclid=IwAR3U9uMTc0gse2DSwrUPiIJDKx7ZhuypRDentQKwg5R285ylls66z_ImPp8#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Take some time to read the posts, you weaken your own stance by not doing so

I asked why case count doesn't matter now when it did so much before. The simple answer is it doesn't support the opposing argument so is dropped from it because it has become all the more obvious it's the wrong dataset to use, it's unreliable both from a testing and a sampling perspective, so many are missed or register a false negative.

The dataset to use has always been cases requiring admission.

The fact that I have to state this is a further demonstration of the weaknesses and failure in the opposing argument

99nsr125

charlie14 wrote: »

I said I could not be arsed explaining "not that it really matters" to you because I believed it was obvious. But seeing as yet again you are off on a flight of fantasy I have to waste my time doing so.
I said "not that it really matters" because like everywhere else Sweden`s numbers are rising, (btw they were over 1,000 for yesterday the one question I actually asked you but true to form you ignored), and compared to Ireland there is a time lag of a few weeks.



As to this fallacy you mention you somehow believe I have.
I could go through chapter and verse on deaths, herd immunity, economics, unemployment figures etc. as to the fallacy of the Swedish strategy but I have learned enough from interacting with you it would just be yet another waste of my time and ignored.

Well you actually failed to answer the question of it not mattering by conflating that question with published numbers. The numbers could have been high or low but the question is why is that they don't matter now when they did so much before. Simply it'll be because they undermine your stance.

Sweden would be ahead of us not behind for they maintained relative normalcy levels throughout.

Well actually you haven't debated any of the measures of the broader impacts with me, you're confused in your assertion.

Back when we were flattening the curve nobody ever talked about the fact that flattening the curve would result in the same amount of deaths just over a different time scale.


That a significant amount of the vulnerable population would have precious months and years robbed from them and this time is more precious to them than anything else. We try to save those who cannot be saved and destroy the little time others have to such a point their lives will feel as if they have ended.

Graham

99nsr125 wrote: »

That a significant amount of the vulnerable population would have precious months and years robbed from them and this time is more precious to them than anything else. We try to save those who cannot be saved and destroy the little time others have to such a point their lives will feel as if they have ended.

It sounds like you're confusing vulnerable with terminally ill.

charlie14

99nsr125 wrote: »

Well you actually failed to answer the question of it not mattering by conflating that question with published numbers. The numbers could have been high or low but the question is why is that they don't matter now when they did so much before. Simply it'll be because they undermine your stance.

Sweden would be ahead of us not behind for they maintained relative normalcy levels throughout.

Well actually you haven't debated any of the measures of the broader impacts with me, you're confused in your assertion.

Back when we were flattening the curve nobody ever talked about the fact that flattening the curve would result in the same amount of deaths just over a different time scale.


That a significant amount of the vulnerable population would have precious months and years robbed from them and this time is more precious to them than anything else. We try to save those who cannot be saved and destroy the little time others have to such a point their lives will feel as if they have ended.

I answered you question. Whether you wish to believe that answer or not is entirely up to you.


If you wish to debate some points then put them in a manner that I have at least some chance of interpreting. Because right now I have not a clue what you are on about.
As an example,that last paragraph. I do not know if it`s a statement, a point you are making that you feel I for some reason should comment on, or just some quasi religious rant.


I`m not trying to insult you, but I genuinely do not have the foggiest idea what you are on about in the majority of your posts.