Sweden avoiding lockdown

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

That graphic is very good in showing where the testing in both countries changed, when they stopped actually having daily briefings in Sweden just before the beginning of September.

And the graphic shows precisely what I am stating, that Sweden is a few weeks behind, they're where Ireland was at the end of September.

They are indeed taking the right decision with this local lockdowns however we'll have to see if that really will change anything.

In any way case or form the heard immunity bs is more than debunked, if it really had worked they would not be having a second wave.

Local lockdowns are the approach taken across much of Europe, except maybe Ireland, Scotland and Wales. We have ridiculously low headroom in Ireland when it comes to ICUs and hospitalisations and our track and trace has collapsed which was important as it stopped for example the contact of an infected person turning up for work in a nursing home or hospital.

Regards herd immunity, its unclear yet if they are benefitting from it. In the first wave certain cities and regions were hit badly whereas others were hardly touched. Obviously the latter is going to suffer badly this time around. So more research needs to be done into which regions were hit when before you can tell if herd immunity has worked in some areas.

Drumpot

dubrov wrote: »

Some are saying Sweden's approach is a massive success. Some are saying it's a big failure.

In the summer, it looked good but with good vaccine candidates appearing and cases rising again, it is beginning to look bad again.

It is way too early to call either way

I think Sweden did us a favour by doing something different, it’s not a case that they should be necessarily lambasted or praised. But there is an agenda by some to paint them as a credible alternative to follow without much critical analysis or critical thinking on the different variables attached to their strategy.

I read some poster say how much swedes prefer their approach, well of course they do, they can socialise and do more of the fun things we have been told we can’t do. That’s an almost childish defence of their strategy to look at it purely from a “well I like it here” approach. If they can show us data and informed reasoning as to why it would work in Ireland I am all ears.

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

This graph from a random major hospital region in Sweden
Blue is infected patient. Green is infected staff.

https://www.regionorebrolan.se/sv/Halsa-och-vard/Corona/Lagesbilder-och-statistik/1/

It seems obvious from that graph that far fewer staff are being infected this time around whereas a lot were infected the first time around.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why that might be the case.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Local lockdowns are the approach taken across much of Europe, except maybe Ireland, Scotland and Wales. We have ridiculously low headroom in Ireland when it comes to ICUs and hospitalisations and our track and trace has collapsed which was important as it stopped for example the contact of an infected person turning up for work in a nursing home or hospital.

correct! and that's what worked in a few counties and failed in Dublin. However it took them a long time to actually do something about Dublin and those critical days lead us to the cases we have now. Also, absolutely correct on ICUs, HSE is shockingly bad compared to other places such as Sweden and this is just showing more and more how bad public hospitals have become in Ireland. HSE needed a reform last decade ago and if we had a proper well funded public health system we'd have more ICU beds, no reports of people on trolleys and more importantly would probably avoid this lockdown!

Look at Portugal with double the population than Ireland with many public hospitals. The numbers are rising and a few hospitals are at capacity but there's still plenty of ICU beds and Hospital beds available, meaning you can direct non-covid patients around to other hospitals and turn specific hospitals into covid only hospitals. During the first wave there where reports of hospitals asking people to come to their consultations as they had capacity for patients due to this

biko

tobefrank321 wrote: »

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why that might be the case.

Tell us anyway.

Vieira82

Drumpot wrote: »

I think Sweden did us a favour by doing something different, it’s not a case that they should be necessarily lambasted or praised. But there is an agenda by some to paint them as a credible alternative to follow without much critical analysis or critical thinking on the different variables attached to their strategy.

I read some poster say how much swedes prefer their approach, well of course they do, they can socialise and do more of the fun things we have been told we can’t do. That’s an almost childish defence of their strategy to look at it purely from a “well I like it here” approach. If they can show us data and informed reasoning as to why it would work in Ireland I am all ears.

this is precisely the point! They simply have nothing besides random joe youtube video or that post on facebook...

So I'll have to leave this here...

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

Tell us anyway.

Whereas its different patients and probably from areas that weren't badly hit first time around, the staff are still much the same. A fair proportion of them were infected first time around and are now immune. Which is very important for dealing with a second wave. Allowing non immune staff work in places like nursing homes for example is asking for trouble.

FintanMcluskey

Vieira82 wrote: »

Have you actually openned the blinds of your Irish house lately and looked outside of your own little Irish bubble?

The whole world is passing through it. Even countries that had very low cases suffered economically and by consequence socially. Ireland is not the rotten egg of lockdowns there's plenty of other countries to choose from at the moment. Literally the only exception that is still banging the bucks is China and that's because the whole western world depends on China and everything from masks to respirators are made in...

*drumroll

China. So they are actually the only major economy that will grow this year. And also this news report from 11 days ago:

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/great-wall-golden-weekend-crowds-intl-hnk-scli/index.html

And also this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-54504785

So could we stop with the theatrics, the egocentrism and actually get out of our little bubbles and understand this is a global problem with consequences that will be felt for the next decades without a doubt... the sooner people get this in their heads, the quicker we'll stop bickering about Sweden and actually start thinking of how as a nation Ireland will face this...

Ireland is the rotten egg in Europe.

From the point of view of the fact it has suffered one of the longest forms of restrictions of the EU, the greatest job losses and hardest hit domestic economy.

If this a long road, Sweden is best set up to ride it out, and people need to stop dismissing the importance of socialising to society

biko

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Whereas its different patients and probably from areas that weren't badly hit first time around, the staff are still much the same. A fair proportion of them were infected first time around and are now immune. Which is very important for dealing with a second wave. Allowing non immune staff work in places like nursing homes for example is asking for trouble.

Interesting point.
Of course we still don't know if someone that is immune still can carry the virus around and infect others (like Typhoid Mary).

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

Interesting point.
Of course we still don't know if someone that is immune still can carry the virus around and infect others (like Typhoid Mary).

Fair point.
Never going to 100% eliminate cv as it will always be on surfaces, but the less infected people the less chance of it spreading.

Vieira82

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Ireland is the rotten egg in Europe.

From the point of view of the fact it has suffered one of the longest forms of restrictions of the EU, the greatest job losses and hardest hit domestic economy.

If this a long road, Sweden is best set up to ride it out, and people need to stop dismissing the importance of socialising to society

That's all very nice and well put except.... it's simply not true! Plenty of other EU countries with shorter lockdowns that are worse off atm/where affected worse by this.

https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/irish-economy-to-contract-by-7.9-per-cent-in-2020_en

What's the point in bashing Ireland just to make a point I think? Some people just really love to hate, even their own country...

cnocbui

Vieira82 wrote: »

this is precisely the point! They simply have nothing besides random joe youtube video or that post on facebook...

So I'll have to leave this here...

Thats funny - we have the equivalent of an IPCC CO2 is warming the planet global warming moment, in the form of The Great Barrington Declaration, where currently 10,905 medical and public health scientists and 30,389 medical practitioners have signed, while you are posting simpsons cartoons and implying you have a superior knowledge base than those 41,000+ medical practitioners and scientists.

It's over for the lockdowners claiming science is on their side, the tide has turned and you and your lot are now the Covid-19 equivalent of climate change deniers.

ArthurDayne

Drumpot wrote: »

I think Sweden did us a favour by doing something different, it’s not a case that they should be necessarily lambasted or praised. But there is an agenda by some to paint them as a credible alternative to follow without much critical analysis or critical thinking on the different variables attached to their strategy.

I read some poster say how much swedes prefer their approach, well of course they do, they can socialise and do more of the fun things we have been told we can’t do. That’s an almost childish defence of their strategy to look at it purely from a “well I like it here” approach. If they can show us data and informed reasoning as to why it would work in Ireland I am all ears.

The problem with this though is that the justifiable counter-argument is that people have simply dismissed the Swedish model without critical thinking — the main two being that it was simply an evil kill-the-pensioners strategy and that Irish people are generally too feckless to emulate some superior Swedish prowess. The result was that we heard people forever telling us how utterly different we are from Sweden, but at the same time would tell us how applicable the NZ strategy was to us — despite the fact that in many ways Sweden’s geopolitical position is more similar to ours.

The main underlying strength to Sweden’s strategy is one that was never hard to emulate — they set a sustainable narrative. One of my huge problems with the Irish lockdown narrative at the start was that it was setting a very very high threshold of morality that was unattainable on a sustainable long term basis. Our narrative was a single-minded, single-goal one that could work short term, and much of that was built on panic. The Swedes however took a step back and set a different narrative — that, yes, protecting the vulnerable is important but that strategy must be placed in the context of other important long term considerations.

The fact is that we aren’t going to find a long term solution until we find a long term narrative. That means our government having, to put it bluntly, the balls to actually risk their own reputation in getting it through to the nation that a long term plan involves confronting some deeply uncomfortable realities. Instead however, they continue to go for the blunt nuclear option — because it’s the easiest moral high ground to take and (one suspects) the best one for masking their failures in ramping up healthcare capacity.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Thats funny - we have the equivalent of an IPCC CO2 is warming the planet global warming moment, in the form of The Great Barrington Declaration, where currently 10,905 medical and public health scientists and 30,389 medical practitioners have signed, while you are posting simpsons cartoons and implying you have a superior knowledge base than those 41,000+ medical practitioners and scientists.

It's over for the lockdowners claiming science is on their side, the tide has turned and you and your lot are now the Covid-19 equivalent of climate change deniers.

What is even funnier is that you mention this Barrington Declaration in the same post as climate change deniers.
This declaration was drafted in Barrington Massachusetts a group called the America Institute for Economic Research.
The title does make this group sound like an independent think tank.
It is not. It is part of of a Koch funded network of organisations associated with climate change denial.

Bit cynical

Vieira82 wrote: »

And the graphic shows precisely what I am stating, that Sweden is a few weeks behind, they're where Ireland was at the end of September.

I'm afraid it doesn't show that. The slope for Ireland is much steeper at a given level of daily infections. This means that the gap is widening over time.

Vieira82

cnocbui wrote: »

Thats funny - we have the equivalent of an IPCC CO2 is warming the planet global warming moment, in the form of The Great Barrington Declaration, where currently 10,905 medical and public health scientists and 30,389 medical practitioners have signed, while you are posting simpsons cartoons and implying you have a superior knowledge base than those 41,000+ medical practitioners and scientists.

It's over for the lockdowners claiming science is on their side, the tide has turned and you and your lot are now the Covid-19 equivalent of climate change deniers.

100% the most factual, reliable information source that whatevs declaration:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/19/co-author-anti-lockdowns-letter-appeared-far-right-radio-show-martin-kulldorff-great-barrington-declaration-richie-allen-show

In short, adding bs to the same pot that is anti-semite, flat earther, anti-climate change and... you guessed it... anti-covid... very trustworthy indeed!

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

100% the most factual, reliable information source that whatevs declaration:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/19/co-author-anti-lockdowns-letter-appeared-far-right-radio-show-martin-kulldorff-great-barrington-declaration-richie-allen-show

In short, adding bs to the same pot that is anti-semite, flat earther, anti-climate change and... you guessed it... anti-covid... very trustworthy indeed!

Does it matter who started the declaration. Look at some of the names attached to it. They are world leading scientists from Oxford, Harvard and Stanford among others. Nothing to do with climate change. Scientists questioning the lockdown approach.

If the vaccines turn off covid overnight like a tap, wonderful. If instead we are facing years of it being around, vaccines that are only partially effective, or that reduce but do not eliminate infections and hospitalizations, then the lockdown countries will have made a huge mistake. They will have ruined their economies, ruined businesses, put millions out of jobs, severely disrupted the diagnoses and treatment of other fatal illnesses which primarily affect the young, and still face a covid 19 problem years into the future, with on going restrictions. Their only hope is a highly effective vaccine that solves this problem within 6 months.

Drumpot

ArthurDayne wrote: »

The problem with this though is that the justifiable counter-argument is that people have simply dismissed the Swedish model without critical thinking — the main two being that it was simply an evil kill-the-pensioners strategy and that Irish people are generally too feckless to emulate some superior Swedish prowess. The result was that we heard people forever telling us how utterly different we are from Sweden, but at the same time would tell us how applicable the NZ strategy was to us — despite the fact that in many ways Sweden’s geopolitical position is more similar to ours.

The main underlying strength to Sweden’s strategy is one that was never hard to emulate — they set a sustainable narrative. One of my huge problems with the Irish lockdown narrative at the start was that it was setting a very very high threshold of morality that was unattainable on a sustainable long term basis. Our narrative was a single-minded, single-goal one that could work short term, and much of that was built on panic. The Swedes however took a step back and set a different narrative — that, yes, protecting the vulnerable is important but that strategy must be placed in the context of other important long term considerations.

The fact is that we aren’t going to find a long term solution until we find a long term narrative. That means our government having, to put it bluntly, the balls to actually risk their own reputation in getting it through to the nation that a long term plan involves confronting some deeply uncomfortable realities. Instead however, they continue to go for the blunt nuclear option — because it’s the easiest moral high ground to take and (one suspects) the best one for masking their failures in ramping up healthcare capacity.

I kind of agree with some of this but you could argue that Sweden's message was a much easier to sell to the public. "Hey guys, you see the way every other country in the world is closing down pubs and pretty much anything that's fun, well we aren't going to do that, are you wish us?".

I find it hard to see an argument that explains how Sweden didn't frontload deaths and put all the risk on those most vulnerable in the population. Seems like its just an inconvenient truth to be honest. I have seen no objective analysis of what Sweden did and how that will translate in Ireland, just sentiments and soundbites lamenting the fact we don't "do a Sweden" with no meaningful insight into why that stacks up.

I think our government have laid out their plans. If there is no vaccine by the end of 2021 we will probably be left with no choice but to focus on economic interests. So like most countries, when we have to, we will probably leave our vulnerable more exposed. If there is a vaccine available in the next 12 months we wont have to do that.

Geographically, the closest we have to a country that was going to do the Swedish model initially is the UK, that very quickly changed its tune when it saw the potential damage it would of done. The UK has equally been slower to act and probably less strict in terms of restrictions in comparison to us and we are seeing there and in Northern Ireland how that pans out.

I think maybe culturally, politically , geographically, healthcare resources wise maybe even biologically on some level that there are factors in Scandinavia that we do not have in our parts of Europe. You could argue that between July-September in Ireland we were effectively living a comparison to the Swedish model which in itself suggests that maybe its just not a model we can adopt fully during the pandemic.

I do not subscribe to the idea that Lockdowns and these severe restrictions are inevitable. I think at certain times they might be, but I also believe that with the right measures/infrastructure in place it didn't have to be this severe.

Drumpot

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Does it matter who started the declaration. Look at some of the names attached to it. They are world leading scientists from Oxford, Harvard and Stanford among others. Nothing to do with climate change. Scientists questioning the lockdown approach.

If the vaccines turn off covid overnight like a tap, wonderful. If instead we are facing years of it being around, vaccines that are only partially effective, or that reduce but do not eliminate infections and hospitalizations, then the lockdown countries will have made a huge mistake. They will have ruined their economies, ruined businesses, put millions out of jobs, severely disrupted the diagnoses and treatment of other fatal illnesses which primarily affect the young, and still face a covid 19 problem years into the future, with on going restrictions. Their only hope is a highly effective vaccine that solves this problem within 6 months.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-nordics-economy-poll-idUKKBN27611N

"The Nordic countries, including Denmark and Finland, have been less badly hit than many European economies, despite taking very different approaches to fighting the spread of virus, with Sweden opting for the most lax response on the continent".

Sweden has had the most lax restrictions of the Nordic countries but doesn't appear to be faring any better financially.

Like I have said, there are factors in this area that do not apply to Ireland. Why are Denmark, Norway and Finland doing better then Sweden from a COVID point of view, not getting hit any worse financially and yet people are holding Sweden up as a model they want to follow ?

So its not for financial reasons that Sweden should be followed.

In terms of our economy, its not going to collapse, this is a hyperbolic statement to make. The government have factored in severe rolling restrictions throughout 2021 and already funded for it. If there is no vaccine in sight come mid 2021 then I believe you will possibly see a shift in strategy.

Regardless of what happens I dont see our country collapsing. The debt being leveraged on us is still a fraction of what was done in 2008 and we are getting the loans at near zero interest which is less then the penal interest we were charged when we were on our knees after the banking crisis.

cnocbui

Vieira82 wrote: »

100% the most factual, reliable information source that whatevs declaration:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/19/co-author-anti-lockdowns-letter-appeared-far-right-radio-show-martin-kulldorff-great-barrington-declaration-richie-allen-show

In short, adding bs to the same pot that is anti-semite, flat earther, anti-climate change and... you guessed it... anti-covid... very trustworthy indeed!

You and Charlie are falling for the same desperate logical nonsense the majority of boardsies do when grasping at straws - trying to conflate the medium with hte message.

If someone posts a link on boards to an article in the Daily Mail, the usual response echos what you and Charlie are attempting - arguing you shouldn't drink the Bisleri mineral water because it's in a plastic cup instead of a glass. The lazy argument that the container automataically polutes the contents by association.

The intellectually lazy doctrine that it's OK to link directly to an article about some research finding reported in Nature or New Scientist, but it's not OK to provide a link to the Daily Mail where they are reporting on the same original paper.

The fundamental credentials, professional expertise, experience and professsional reputation of the signatories is all that matters, not the electronic equivalent of the location of the piece of paper they signed. The message, stature and significance of the piece of paper is the same, whether it's pinned to the wall of a filthy and unsanitary public toilet or a wall in the Palace of Versailes. It's who signed the paper that matters here.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Does it matter who started the declaration. Look at some of the names attached to it. They are world leading scientists from Oxford, Harvard and Stanford among others. Nothing to do with climate change. Scientists questioning the lockdown approach.

If the vaccines turn off covid overnight like a tap, wonderful. If instead we are facing years of it being around, vaccines that are only partially effective, or that reduce but do not eliminate infections and hospitalizations, then the lockdown countries will have made a huge mistake. They will have ruined their economies, ruined businesses, put millions out of jobs, severely disrupted the diagnoses and treatment of other fatal illnesses which primarily affect the young, and still face a covid 19 problem years into the future, with on going restrictions. Their only hope is a highly effective vaccine that solves this problem within 6 months.

To be Frank... you are just assuming things that are not even remarkable close to being true. In the worst case scenario this will not last more than two years. Because viruses are in constant mutation (as all unicelular organisms) and all it wants to do is spread. That's what it's genetic information is programmed to do.

As it happened with the Spanish Flu and SARS and all viruses it ends up evolving and becoming part of the winter cycle of diseases as it´s spread starts to slow down. But until this happens we're in the gutter as it can indeed end up evolving to something less deadly we're just not there yet.

The only reason everyone is trying to control it is mainly to save people from dying like we're seeing in places like Brazil and the US and to avoid people having consequences from it as so many are reporting it.

There's a difference if you got 3 extra deaths a year from a new disease to if you got thousands. There's a difference if you got life changing consequences from a disease like polio to one that has none...

Explain to me what's the point in having a disease running rampant in society, employers having employees on sick leave and as we can see now those sick leaves can last months.

Unless you are advocating that to keep businesses and the economy afloat we get rid of any kind of sick leave or social protections employees have in favor of an all in for money...

Well guess what? It does not work either, look at the US with massive unemployment, massive evictions in the millions coming in soon as millions have zero social protections.

So it makes me wonder why no one compares to the US model where it's all for businesses.

And to be frank... it's obvious... because it does not suit your narrative to speak of the absolute ****eshow we see happening in the US atm..

On top of that, just like we can see... it does not matter if Ireland would adopt a Swedish model, because if no one else does then the economic impacts are still there. That's what happens with globalization and what happened in 2008 too...

it boggles me the amount of people screaming for the hospitality industry when loads of it depends on foreign tourists that in a pandemic year, even with the boarders fully opened was not nearly compared to other years...

So please tell me, how in your twisted mind it's acceptable that we adopt the Swedish model, with a crumbling HSE just to promote

*drumroll

*** BuSiNeSsEs and the EcOnOmY ***

And if we had an extra thousands dead it genuinely would not matter! Because we kept the economy going and still got the same consequences for nothing

Brilliant theory indeed!

Actually I have a better one. Let's shut down hospitals and pharmacies alltogether. Let everything that is not producing hard earned cash be completely abolished. It does not matter that people die. Let everyone die.

Actually... now that I think of it... permanently close down schools! Who needs an education right? All we need is to make money for businesses and "the economy"

A dumb, unhealthy population only focused on making money for businesses. Where have I seen that exactly?

Vieira82

cnocbui wrote: »

You and Charlie are falling for the same desperate logical nonsense the majority of boardsies do when grasping at straws - trying to conflate the medium with hte message.

If someone posts a link on boards to an article in the Daily Mail, the usual response echos what you and Charlie are attempting - arguing you shouldn't drink the Bisleri mineral water because it's in a plastic cup instead of a glass. The lazy argument that the container automataically polutes the contents by association.

The intellectually lazy doctrine that it's OK to link directly to an article about some research finding reported in Nature or New Scientist, but it's not OK to provide a link to the Daily Mail where they are reporting on the same original paper.

The fundamental credentials, professional expertise, experience and professsional reputation of the signatories is all that matters, not the electronic equivalent of the location of the piece of paper they signed. The message, stature and significance of the piece of paper is the same, whether it's pinned to the wall of a filthy and unsanitary public toilet or a wall in the Palace of Versailes. It's who signed the paper that matters here.

And all I see from your arguments is signataries but you YOURSELF have not even had a clue at looking how scientists around the world are actually against it. So who's in an echo chamber really???

Someone advocating for something without having a grasp for it but grasping anything that makes them feel right or actually accurate science....

https://www.johnsnowmemo.com/

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/experts-forcefully-push-back-on-barrington-declaration

https://www.wamc.org/post/great-barrington-declaration-s-herd-immunity-pitch-receives-international-local-condemnation

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/18/covid-herd-immunity-funding-bad-science-anti-lockdown

https://www.businessinsider.com/herd-immunity-plan-great-barrington-declaration-wont-work-2020-10?r=US&IR=T

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-barrington-declaration-an-open-letter-arguing-against-lockdown-policies-and-for-focused-protection/

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/89127

https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/89177

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/89204

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/21517702/great-barrington-declaration-john-snow-memorandum-explained-herd-immunity

but yes... definetly I'm the one in an echo chamber not you.

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

To be Frank... you are just assuming things that are not even remarkable close to being true. In the worst case scenario this will not last more than two years. Because viruses are in constant mutation (as all unicelular organisms) and all it wants to do is spread. That's what it's genetic information is programmed to do.

As it happened with the Spanish Flu and SARS and all viruses it ends up evolving and becoming part of the winter cycle of diseases as it´s spread starts to slow down. But until this happens we're in the gutter as it can indeed end up evolving to something less deadly we're just not there yet.

The only reason everyone is trying to control it is mainly to save people from dying like we're seeing in places like Brazil and the US and to avoid people having consequences from it as so many are reporting it.

There's a difference if you got 3 extra deaths a year from a new disease to if you got thousands. There's a difference if you got life changing consequences from a disease like polio to one that has none...

Explain to me what's the point in having a disease running rampant in society, employers having employees on sick leave and as we can see now those sick leaves can last months.

Unless you are advocating that to keep businesses and the economy afloat we get rid of any kind of sick leave or social protections employees have in favor of an all in for money...

Well guess what? It does not work either, look at the US with massive unemployment, massive evictions in the millions coming in soon as millions have zero social protections.

So it makes me wonder why no one compares to the US model where it's all for businesses.

And to be frank... it's obvious... because it does not suit your narrative to speak of the absolute ****eshow we see happening in the US atm..

On top of that, just like we can see... it does not matter if Ireland would adopt a Swedish model, because if no one else does then the economic impacts are still there. That's what happens with globalization and what happened in 2008 too...

it boggles me the amount of people screaming for the hospitality industry when loads of it depends on foreign tourists that in a pandemic year, even with the boarders fully opened was not nearly compared to other years...

So please tell me, how in your twisted mind it's acceptable that we adopt the Swedish model, with a crumbling HSE just to promote

*drumroll

*** BuSiNeSsEs and the EcOnOmY ***

And if we had an extra thousands dead it genuinely would not matter! Because we kept the economy going and still got the same consequences for nothing

Brilliant theory indeed!

Actually I have a better one. Let's shut down hospitals and pharmacies alltogether. Let everything that is not producing hard earned cash be completely abolished. It does not matter that people die. Let everyone die.

Actually... now that I think of it... permanently close down schools! Who needs an education right? All we need is to make money for businesses and "the economy"

A dumb, unhealthy population only focused on making money for businesses. Where have I seen that exactly?

The Eastern European countries had severe lockdowns. Look at them now. In deep trouble, the highest death rates in Europe. Lockdown achieved nothing. As has been stated numerous times, crushing the curve is probably the worst approach because once you open up, cv comes back worse. The Czechs even held a party to celebrate the end of covid.

Its not just about money as you clearly ignored the part where I said the diagnoses and treatment of other fatal illnesses or just long term illnesses that make people's lives a misery are suffering. This insanity continues with highly trained medical staff being pulled away from their day to day work to act as contact tracers, a role that does not require a degree in medicine and something anyone could do. Meanwhile their day to day patients suffer.

There is no evidence coronavirus is becoming less fatal for the old and vulnerable, after almost a year in existence. The hope that it will become very mild unfortunately is not supported by science. It can be very mild for the young and healthy but not for those in the vulnerable category.

As for shutting down schools, why would I want that? We did it in the spring, the Swedes didn't. You are undermining your own argument on that one.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The Eastern European countries had severe lockdowns. Look at them now. In deep trouble, the highest death rates in Europe. Lockdown achieved nothing. As has been stated numerous times, crushing the curve is probably the worst approach because once you open up, cv comes back worse. The Czechs even held a party to celebrate the end of covid.

And Swedens no lockdown did achieve something as the current infections show isn't?

Funny how you want to be one sided and again not a word about the US for ex. I wonder why?

And also funny you mentioning other diseases. So other diseases it's fine to be treated just not ppl with covid. Let those die... makes perfect sense

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

And Swedens no lockdown did achieve something as the current infections show isn't?

Funny how you want to be one sided and again not a word about the US for ex. I wonder why?

And also funny you mentioning other diseases. So other diseases it's fine to be treated just not ppl with covid. Let those die... makes perfect sense

The Czechs are averaging 70 deaths a day currently. The Swedes are averaging about 3 a day. Almost exactly the same population. One closed everything down, the other didn't.

As for the US, NYC is one of the most densely populated cities in the world. Their nursing and care homes got hammered. They had spring breaks and there is a massive anti mask or restrictions movement. They also have among the highest rates of obesity and diabetes in the world and Brazil also has a similar health profile. They can't really be compared to a Northern European country.

And no I'm not a Trump supporter if that's what you're trying to imply, hopefully Biden soundly beats him in the election.

humberklog

Drumpot wrote: »

I kind of agree with some of this but you could argue that Sweden's message was a much easier to sell to the public. "Hey guys, you see the way every other country in the world is closing down pubs and pretty much anything that's fun, well we aren't going to do that, are you wish us?".

Good Post, as was ArthurDaynes but this first part is a bit disengenuous. From the outset it doesn't appear that Sweden looked to measure their reaction off any other country and from what I was reading at the time their narrative wasn't about retaining freedoms, they were telling people about restrictions and convincing the public to get on board with them. Much the same as other countries but their restrictions were way less than other countries.

I was listening to Éamon Duphy's podcast earlier and he regularly has an Irish journalist in Sweden on to talk. Going by him it sounds as though the Swedes themselves are now starting to question the route they took as it is looking like it isn't going to be a successful one.

I would've been in the pro Swedish approach camp too.

Real Donald Trump

The Swedes leading the way in showing how it's done :cool:

It must really hurt the lockdown merchants feelings :pac:

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The Czechs are averaging 70 deaths a day currently. The Swedes are averaging about 3 a day. Almost exactly the same population. One closed everything down, the other didn't.

As for the US, NYC is one of the most densely populated cities in the world. Their nursing and care homes got hammered. They had spring breaks and there is a massive anti mask or restrictions movement. They also have among the highest rates of obesity and diabetes in the world and Brazil also has a similar health profile. They can't really be compared to a Northern European country.

And no I'm not a Trump supporter if that's what you're trying to imply, hopefully Biden soundly beats him in the election.

Let's wait a few weeks and come back to this comment on Swedens death rate...

Like last week people screaming there was no increase in cases over there.

Oh and Brazil does not have the same health profile as the US at all. But that's another conversation not for this topic.

But we'll see next week where Sweden stands

MOH

Vieira82 wrote: »

That's all very nice and well put except.... it's simply not true! Plenty of other EU countries with shorter lockdowns that are worse off atm/where affected worse by this.

https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/irish-economy-to-contract-by-7.9-per-cent-in-2020_en

What's the point in bashing Ireland just to make a point I think? Some people just really love to hate, even their own country...

That was a prediction made in early May.

Before we came out of lockdown, failed to deliver on any of the promises made which were made for which the lockdown was supposed to be buying time, failed to ever reopen whole sectors of the economy, and are now heading for a worse lockdown.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

You and Charlie are falling for the same desperate logical nonsense the majority of boardsies do when grasping at straws - trying to conflate the medium with hte message.

If someone posts a link on boards to an article in the Daily Mail, the usual response echos what you and Charlie are attempting - arguing you shouldn't drink the Bisleri mineral water because it's in a plastic cup instead of a glass. The lazy argument that the container automataically polutes the contents by association.

The intellectually lazy doctrine that it's OK to link directly to an article about some research finding reported in Nature or New Scientist, but it's not OK to provide a link to the Daily Mail where they are reporting on the same original paper.

The fundamental credentials, professional expertise, experience and professsional reputation of the signatories is all that matters, not the electronic equivalent of the location of the piece of paper they signed. The message, stature and significance of the piece of paper is the same, whether it's pinned to the wall of a filthy and unsanitary public toilet or a wall in the Palace of Versailes. It's who signed the paper that matters here.

It would not bother me if you linked to The Beano. I would find it perhaps an idea for you to do a bit of research into who is sponsoring this cup or glass you believe we should all drink from before doing so.
Especially when comparing those that see it as dangerous and reckless to drink from those vessels to climate change deniers.

The grandly named American Institute of Economic Research, who funded this declaration, has investment in a wide range of fossil fuel companies (Chevron, Exxon Mobil etc.) as well as tobacco company Phillip Morris International and is also funded by Charles Koch, the worlds second most prominent climate change denier after his good friend Donald Trump.


This so called "declaration", short as it is, is still a waste of paper. They could have written it on the back of a postage stamp. It consists of nothing other than " Let it rip and....oh yeah protect the vulnerable".
Unadulterated herd immunity. No social distancing, no masks, not even a mention of hand-washing. No mention of how long it would take, even if it is possible to achieve, what level of immunity it would give, how long it would last, or how many would die attempting it.

Same with protecting the vulnerable, no idea how this could be done, even if it was possible to segregate the vulnerable from everyone else or how it would be possible with multi-generation households.

Some have commented on the numbers who have signed this "declaration".
For the people behind it quantity seems to be a bigger concern than quality. Over 100 psychotherapists, various homeopaths, physiotherapists, massage therapists and such prominent medical practitioners as Professor Cominic Dummings, Dr. Johnny Fartpants, Dr.Person Fakename etc. have signed it.
From the lack of any scientific content in this "declaration" and some of those that have signed it, I believe I am entitled without any medical qualification to judge it as a load of crap.