Sweden avoiding lockdown

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122342#Comment_119122342

I don't think picking an entire year in a pandemic is being "highly selective", especially when most of the criticism of Sweden is concentrated on their actions in 2020 and the consequences of the herd immunity strategy. They show Sweden in a bad light, and no graph presented here has exonerated them.

It is more valid to compare Sweden with similar countries, than entire EU comparison. This is a basic point, and again nothing has been presented on this thread that makes me doubt that.

Also you neglected in your "broader timescales" you to mention vaccination campaign rollout in Sweden. I wonder why?

"highly selective" yourself.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122370#Comment_119122370

In fairness, being fifth from the bottom in the EU does indeed show them in a good light. If the critics of Sweden had been correct that Sweden's policie of keeping things open would lead to untold deaths then they would be much higher excess deaths to date. But that is not the case. They are nowhere near average let alone the top of the table.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122444#Comment_119122444

Strawman is strong here with "untold deaths". If you'd bothered to read the thread you will see most of the criticism was of the herd immunity approach, which went far beyond "keeping things open". Sweden's 2020 policy is not the same as Sweden's 2021 policy, when for example, some schools did shut.

If it's just about "keeping things open", well things were open but the population changed behaviour. Economic activity / spending dropped by as much as countries which did lockdown. They took a gamble in my opinion and that the consequences were not worst was down to their national advantages such as density, high hospital capacity and geographic position and the voluntary changes in behaviour by the population and businesses WFH.

We can see the approach doesn't transfer well from happened when the UK tried to keep things open.

As in your obvious avoidance \ reluctance to engage with any of the points made about Sweden's comparison with its near neighbours.

And mention of vaccinations. Do we have an anti-vaxxer?

Nothing you have shown here presents their 2020 actions - which they changed tack on as documented on this thread - in good light.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122444#Comment_119122444

You are just going back to the "why Sweden should not be compared to it`s neighbours" arguement.

The Economist report showed that regionally for Europe Covid was more severe in terms of deaths traveling east to west and noted that for their region when it came to Covid deaths Sweden were the exception.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122487#Comment_119122487

Nothing you have shown here presents their 2020 actions - which they changed tack on as documented on this thread - in good light.

I would still maintain that being among the lowest in the EU to date for excess dates puts them in a good light overall.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122444#Comment_119122444

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122342#Comment_119122342

On that chart !

If you look at Europe as a whole including Norway and UK you get a much clearer picture . They are average overall and it is largely down to changing tack in late 2020 and their good neighbours who kept numbers down in that part of Europe .

They were doing very badly on all Europe charts in 2020 ...

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119126069#Comment_119126069

I will go further than that. Here's a chart of the whole of the OECD and not merely for 2020 but also including all of 2021 too and so a better indication of the impact of Covid on excess deaths. This includes a lot of European countries including the UK and Norway. But even when we widen the net in this way, Sweden is still in the bottom eight out of thirty eight for excess deaths, and less than half the OECD average. It is true that some countries have done better but Sweden has nonetheless done very well overall.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119126216#Comment_119126216

Yes ...they pulled up their overall numbers by imposing restrictions in 2021 ! That's what we have been saying...

I notice you still haven't shown how they did just for 2020 when they had higher excess deaths ?

And that graph leaves out so many countries, including Ireland . They are not even among the best in that edited version there , not a complete picture at all of the full list of OECD so you cannot extrapolate that Sweden " is eight from the bottom if all are not included ..and they are still after two years ranked close to average , not " better than average " .

Ireland is better than average! Where are we listed there ?

What is needed is a complete world or OECD graph for 2020 then compare with 2021 ?

Think I have one somewhere .....I will try to post it .

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128409#Comment_119128409

I notice you still haven't shown how they did just for 2020 when they had higher excess deaths ?

The figures do include 2020 as well as 2021.

Goldengirl

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/5442b5fc-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/5442b5fc-en

This is still incomplete as they are going on data supplied in 2020 but would give you an idea if what we have been saying about Sweden when they didn't impose restrictions and how badly they were doing.

See how they are near the top of chart there ?

But yes , by imposing restrictions when it was clear how badly they were doing they rowed it back in 2021 greatly which improved their average no end , as you showed in your previous graph . Restrictions and then vaccinations .

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128454#Comment_119128454

Point being an average for the 2 years, both showing two different styles ...first year no mitigation except personal choice , second tear mitigation imposed and vaccination . Again, you know what I am saying ...or you are being very deliberately obtuse .

CalamariFritti

The very fact that people need to be squeezing numbers and graphs this way or that way or have a debate on who compare Sweden to or not to just to 'prove' that Sweden's way was some sort of reckless suicidal lunacy says it all. These people are missing the point spectacularly. They will not prove a point by finding a percentage point or two here or there which they can't find even. They have to find orders of magnitude or at least factors. But of course thats not there to be found. They might as well be looking for corona on the moon. But they can't let go.

Its the very people who not only fell hook line and sinker for the corona madness but were their most aggressive advocates. Now they are clutching at straws to discredit the country that is living proof that all of this was pointless idiocy and that they've been had. Of course they are. There is even a recognised condition/term for this behaviour.

There is this somewhat famous example of When Prophecy Fails. Basically some UFO believers cult prophecy about apocalypse brought on by aliens and they campaigned and 'informed' and prayed and whatnot. Then the UFOs didnt come and the apocalypse never happened. But they were so invested in their belief they couldn't conclude that they were wrong. So they concluded that their prayers turned the UFOs away and prevented the apocalypse.

Cognitive dissonance its called.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128504#Comment_119128504

No not an average. A total. The total excess deaths per capita over the two years of the pandemic put Sweden in the bottom eight of OECD countries.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128537#Comment_119128537

There is this somewhat famous example of When Prophecy Fails. Basically some UFO believers cult prophecy about apocalypse brought on by aliens and they campaigned and 'informed' and prayed and whatnot. Then the UFOs didntt come and the apocalypse never happened. But they were so invested in their belief they couldn't conclude that they were wrong. So they concluded that their prayers turned the UFOs away and prevented the apocalypse.

Very true. There's a psychological phenomenon too where people, when evidence starts coming in that they are wrong, strengthen their false belief rather than abandon it.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128491#Comment_119128491

You’ve said a few times now that Sweden imposed restrictions which greatly reduced their numbers. Would you by any chance have a list of those restrictions? It must be comparable to ourselves and others if what you say is true.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129101#Comment_119129101

Nope, the restrictions in Sweden were never anything like that here in 'lockdown Ireland'. To say they were is an insult to intelligence.

You'll go round in circles with certain posters here, forever. They only look at data they like (i.e. only first few months of pandemic, and ignore the whole) and anything else is ignored or called a "God knows where" source- the Lancet for example or The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance.

Good luck, you'll need patience.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128562#Comment_119128562

So they did this, without a lockdown? End thread?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128537#Comment_119128537

Good post Calamari . It quite neatly applies to both sides of the argument , as written, I presume intentional on your part ( or else it's not so clever !)

Flinty997

It's flat earth theory. If something doesn't effect them, it doesn't exist.

Goldengirl

@Bit cynical what Charlie said is true . The Economist did find that Sweden was the worst in the Western EU that many Eastern Europe countries did poorly despite lockdown also .

Why you don't ever discuss the reasons why ?

Sweden is an outlier among countries in Western Europe , especially its neighbours and Ireland , and along with the UK which has a higher excess death rate even .

Ireland did very well by any league table but you guys refuse to admit that .

Yet you and others accuse me and others of being selective asking for data per year .

Sweden did better in 2021 that it pulled back from a final tally that would have put UK in the shade . Why ?

I am not going to produce any more data for people who refuse to read and crucially , understand it .

Enough has been produced over the course of the last month never mind the thread that proves that you and your fellow posters are like a gaggle of ostriches .

Even Tegnell himself now admits more should have been done in 2020 to prevent spread and deaths .

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130273#Comment_119130273

You still working on the list of restrictions Sweden brought in that I asked you for?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130511#Comment_119130511

Why would I bother tbh reply to such a post ? Troll on .

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130511#Comment_119130511

There's a description here

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_government_response_to_the_COVID-19_pandemic

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130591#Comment_119130591

So you can’t come up with a list that explains what you said? Ok, that’s all I wanted you to say.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130610#Comment_119130610

So absolutely NOTHING like other countries lockdowns then?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130654#Comment_119130654

I can't read it for you. But seems from that they did somethings similarly.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130644#Comment_119130644

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130654#Comment_119130654

Examples of why I would not reply to your posts !

Plenty of info already posted and freely available online , but needs someone who is willing to read it and try to make sense of it , which is putting it politely .

Goodbye now , won't be replying again to your rude posts .

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130742#Comment_119130742

You’re not replying because have nothing to reply with. The truth is Sweden had NOTHING like the restrictions other countries did so please stop implying that they did. Oh, and rude? Lol.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131215#Comment_119131215

Clearly you're not reading what is being spoonfed to you, let me quote one of the passages, and note the use of the words "lockdown measures":

On 18 December 2020, Stefan Löfven, the prime minister of Sweden, announced new and tougher restrictions and recommendations including the use of face masks in public transportation and closure of all non-essential public services.[1] In January 2021, a new pandemic law was passed that allows for the use of lockdown measures and legally limited some gatherings.[2] Further measures were introduced in July and December 2021, such as vaccine passports.

You can now spin off into an argument of 1 about what lockdown measures mean, I'm sure others will find it funny to read.

The crux of this thread was that Sweden did sh*t in 2020 pre-vaccination and managed it better in 2021 post vaccination, I don't think anyone is arguing with their post vaccination approach.

However, there is a few arguing for their disastrous pre-vaccination approach who are ignoring all data and records and trying to obfuscate that with their post-vaccination approach.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131264#Comment_119131264

From your link:

They will specify among other things which face masks to use and at what times they should be used, and will be a recommendation only.

We still have the recommendation to wear masks in certain situations here in Ireland but we don't think of it as a restriction yet for some reason it was a restriction in Sweden.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131363#Comment_119131363

Tell those on the mask thread that it's not a restriction 😅 (and as usual I see only a single part of an entire article is being acknowledged).

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131363#Comment_119131363

Isn't that what Sweden called it "national restrictions".

https://www.regeringen.se/artiklar/2020/12/ytterligare-nationella-restriktioner-for-att-hejda-smittspridning/

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131215#Comment_119131215

Not replying cos I had asked you politely to stop rudely demanding links that you have no intention of reading .

Don't know what your definition of rude is but those posts and every other since to me and others are rude and frankly a bit aggressive .

Do not address me again , please .

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129350#Comment_119129350

No disrespect but I don't think it applies to both sides (obviously). And my views are rooted in facts and numbers. And if that makes me not so clever in some people's eyes so be it.

Actually I thought its now widely acknowledged that lockdowns were a mistake and and all the other micromanagement stuff a farce?

So I'm really not making cheap shots or anything just wondering - and trying to find explanations for - how some people are still in the doubling down business on all that.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119132066#Comment_119132066

We both know you can’t come up with a list. You called me a troll in your first reply to me so who is being rude and aggressive?

Don't Chute!

Reading this thread I can’t help wondering when the massive inquiry is going to happen in Sweden seeing as they apparently, deliberately murdered so many people. A lot of people on here seem to have a real chip on their shoulder about the fact that Sweden went their own way and didn’t go full hysterical like the rest of us. I wonder if this is the real problem they have and not the fake empathy for the people who died? Next time I’m over in Sweden I’ll be sure to let them know how outraged you all are on their behalf. The thing is, they won’t care.

Flinty997

They did have an inquiry, a commission and 800-page report.

People seem to be hard of reading in this thread.

Flinty997

If you want to go to Sweden they've lifted the travel restriction they didn't have....

"...The ban on entry to Sweden from countries outside the EU/EEA will not be extended and will cease to apply on 1 April 2022. This also means that the requirement to present vaccination and test certificates when entering Sweden will be removed."

Goldengirl

https://www.tandfonline.com › pdf

Between lockdown and calm down. Comparing the COVID-19 responses of Norway and Sweden - Taylor & Francis Online

This article gives a very complete picture , written from both sides .

For those who need them , there are graphs showing the differences and effects on pages 14 and 15 .

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119132742#Comment_119132742

Disappointed as thought your reference to cognitive dissonance was in respect to both extreme sides in the debate.

By using it in regard only to people whom who disagree with, makes it just another poster bashing post imo.

Your posts are usually pretty fair so I did wonder originally if you were using it to make people think rather than divide.

There are people on every side of the argument here, but the people that are "doubling down" are not the ones that are providing links and data to back up their comments.

That would be those.. who persist in shouting from the sidelines and verbally harassing others.

Lockdowns have not as you say been discrediited as a way of dealing with an out of control virus, just indiscriminate use, as in China for example.

But to counter this that Sweden did the right thing by not locking down at all in 2020 is not borne out by their data from that year.

Those that seek to obfuscate this by showing stats from the two years and not recognise the difference that restrictive measures made to their numbers are being disingenous... but at least they are providing data if selectively.

Vaccination allowed Sweden at that stage ( 2021) to control the situation better so they did not need to " lockdown" completely, but then most countries in Europe including ourselves did not need to lockdown hard like 2020 at that stage either.

They had a lot of cultural and demographic advantages so had they behaved like Norway in 2020 they would have probably come out with very low numbers like that country also (see the article linked above)

I don't expect everyone to agree on this, but at least read and engage in discussion without insulting people ( again not directing this at you personally btw, although the ppst I referred to originally is a sweeping generalisation and unhelpful)

CalamariFritti

I get that and I'm sorry to disappoint but I don't like attempts of rewriting history either. I mean you write Swedish lockdown in apostrophes but you write it all the same. When there was no such thing whatsoever. There were a few recommendations, an encouragement to keep numbers low in certain indoor settings, a few travel restrictions. But when I read from some here how Sweden abandoned their strategy and effectively did what everyone else did that is just an absolute falsification and an attempt of rewriting history.

The overwhelming fact that remains is that Sweden had no lockdowns, no closed hospitality or retail or entertainment or anything, no business closures, no mask mandates, the list goes on. The difference between Sweden and other European countries including ourselves was like the difference between day and night. And they 'did' just as well or as poorly as the most restrictive countries. One just cannot turn away from this. Our bones of 2 years of media induced perma panic has been exposed as a farce and there is no turning away from that either. And I strongly suspect that partly this is the reason why some people are so angry about Sweden. Sweden has provided that counter argument in the middle of Europe. It wasn't some 'faraway country that could be dismissed as 'nutcase' or 'you couldn't trust their numbers.

Flinty997

The only "rage" seems to be from those who spent 2 years in an imaginary isolation and hysteria that didn't exist even in Ireland.

If you spent your days mis-reading the junk media you've only your self to blame for that.

Goldengirl

Fair enough , it wasn't lockdown . But you are wrong to say they had no restrictions .

They had wide ranging restrictions increasing from Autumn Winter 2021 and while there was no government wide lockdown with retail closures as per other EU countries , local municipal government made decisions to close schools and restrict businesses as well as other measures. All following a loss of trust in their health agency , with high community infection rates and deaths , the majority which were in that first year .

People were advised to work from home , numbers in gatherings were restricted , masks for travel and indoor environments, certs and testing , isolation if positive , all like other countries but crucially not in that first wave .

I get that you think we were too strict , but we managed to keep our excess deaths low and didn't become overwhelmed like some other wealthier countries did with more hospital beds and doctors than us . Far from doing poorly .

Do we have lessons to learn? Yes. We should learn by looking at what other countries did , the data on illness and deaths and vaccinations, and yes, even by the Swedish response .

What they did well was in reducing measures appropriately in 2021 in response to improvements in infection rates, hospitalisations and vaccination levels .

And the Swedes should and are doing the same ie . Learning from past mistakes and responses of other countries .

No country got this right 100% ...and that includes Sweden .

Flinty997

No need for all the anger.

therapist3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122329#Comment_119122329

How about you just compare Sweden to the rest of the countries in the world

Would it be because that would undermine your argument perhaps ?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119137485#Comment_119137485

They did great compared to Peru. Well done lads.

Happy now...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136276#Comment_119136276

You've made some excellent posts here.

The reality is that Sweden was supposed to be a blood bath according to many.

But we're now scrambling to try find a graph that shows Sweden did a bit worse at 1 point then their neighbours....

Flinty997

So you're saying Sweden did worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119137645#Comment_119137645

If you cherry pick a country that suits the agenda and a very particular timeframe ;)

Looking at small data sets is not helpful though. Better to look over a long period of time and compare across the world.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142271#Comment_119142271

It's like someone picking ugly friends to hang out with so they look better.