Sweden avoiding lockdown

Joe_ Public

There's a great irony there, isn't there, a staunch anti lockdown declaration that actually proposes the strictest of lockdowns for the millions of citizens who would have to shield under the "plan", though how, where or how long, only god - or maybe Drs Johnny Bananas and Fake No Name - knows.

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

It would not bother me if you linked to <delete usual rambling nonsense and whataboutery>
Some have commented on the numbers who have signed this "declaration".
For the people behind it quantity seems to be a bigger concern than quality. Over 100 psychotherapists, various homeopaths, physiotherapists, massage therapists and such prominent medical practitioners as Professor Cominic Dummings, Dr. Johnny Fartpants, Dr.Person Fakename etc. have signed it.
From the lack of any scientific content in this "declaration" and some of those that have signed it, I believe I am entitled without any medical qualification to judge it as a load of crap.

Game on, son.

Nobel Prize winner: Coronavirus lockdowns cost lives instead of saving them Stanford University biophysicist Michael Levitt, a British American Israeli who won the 2013 Nobel Prize in chemistry, said he believed other health precautions, such as enforcing the use of masks, would have been more effective in combating the pandemic, the Telegraph reported.

“I think lockdown saved no lives. I think it may have cost lives,” Levitt, who is not an epidemiologist, told the publication.

“There is no doubt that you can stop an epidemic with lockdown, but it’s a very blunt and very medieval weapon and the epidemic could have been stopped just as effectively with other sensible measures (such as masks and other forms of social distancing),” he added.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/nobel-prize-winner-coronavirus-lockdowns-saved-no-lives/

Vieira82

Joe_ Public wrote: »

There's a great irony there, isn't there, a staunch anti lockdown declaration that actually proposes the strictest of lockdowns for the millions of citizens who would have to shield under the "plan", though how, where or how long, only god - or maybe Drs Johnny Bananas and Fake No Name - knows.

That's actually very true! We encarcerate the vulnerable, remove them of their rights of mobility for the.... economy...

And of course if any of those vulnerable get sick "it's his/her own fault, he/she should have cocooned better" and not of a society forcing the vulnerable to be detained for the "economy" and letting a virus rage on in favor of a strategy no epidemologist defends because they no it's the worse of the options you can choose from all the bad ones...

mcsean2163

Vieira82 wrote: »

Typical self-centered comment. Is not people always die is the fact they could AVOIDED 5k people dying. But well... let me feel so sorry for your daughter missing gymnastics class my heart goes out to you and her... and not to 5k extra people dead...

When you can... search you heart for a bit of humanity, if you still have it in you ok? thank you

I think it's the opposite. You are the person that wants the young to suffer needlessly in tandem with the old.

The Swedish approach seems entirely logical and compassionate, protect the vulnerable and allow the rest to live.

It's great that despite all previous efforts since the 1960s we will have a vaccine next year but what price is too much?

Which generation will pay off the building collapse bill?

Which generation will pay off the covid19 bill?

What affect will this crap have on the competitiveness of our young people and our economy especially as China is in the ascendant?

People who look at statistics logically are selfish whereas as those that want the world to stop so they can live forever are not?

In spite of all that, I agree with current level 5 as there are so many unknowns but my point was that the joy is being sucked out of life and we will really need to examine our priorities in 2021 if there is no vaccine and there are no causative affects established relating to other factors such as discussed by Dr Wehenkel.

At such a point, the Swedish approach might be best.

Vieira82

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I think it's the opposite. You are the person that wants the young to suffer needlessly in tandem with the old.

The Swedish approach seems entirely logical and compassionate, protect the vulnerable and allow the rest to live.

It's great that despite all previous efforts since the 1960s we will have a vaccine next year but what price is too much?

Which generation will pay off the building collapse bill?

Which generation will pay off the covid19 bill?

What affect will this crap have on the competitiveness of our young people and our economy especially as China is in the ascendant?

People who look at statistics logically are selfish whereas as those that want the world to stop so they can live forever are not?

In spite of all that, I agree with current level 5 as there are so many unknowns but my point was that the joy is being sucked out of life and we will really need to examine our priorities in 2021 if there is no vaccine and there are no causative affects established relating to other factors such as discussed by Dr Wehenkel.

At such a point, the Swedish approach might be best.

Very nice try to deflect the subject to something completely unrelated.

Tell me now... who paid the bill for the crash of 29? Or WW2? Did you bother reading a history book at all in regards to the New Deal or the Marshall Plan, the amount of social support that was offered because in very simple terms if the small fish gets effed then the big fish eventually gets fried too..

Sadly most of the CEOs of big companies are forgetting this precious lesson.

Yes there will be an economic crash, yes there will be a social collapse, yes there will even be even wars...

If and only if those ppl our tax money pays for stop sitting on the laps of big businesses that squeeze us the little fish...

Covid or no covid this current economy system was already on the verge of collapse and proof of that was that months of a pandemic to bring the whole system to it's knees.... Literally millions in the US about to be evicted and the social unrest we see on the TV.

So it was not covid that was going to eff generations, but this bs idea of neo-liberalism that has been eating our society for the last few decades... rents where already unsustainable for younger people, insurance was already a complete cartel scam, getting a house was already difficult for the younger generations and if you think otherwise you've been living under a rock for a long time...

So please, don't cry me a river on younger people that should be educated by the older generations and not be a bunch of spoiled brats that don't even know how to dispose of their own trash.

This situation is proving to many economists how neo-liberalism is a failure and how vital the wellfare state is. Entire countries are creating their recovery fully based on boosting the wellfare state and yes, that means more taxes!

But if by paying more taxes means we actually have a HSE that works and would mean we wouldn't have to lockdown during a pandemic then heck take all my money in tax please!!

cnocbui

Vieira82 wrote: »

That's actually very true! We encarcerate the vulnerable, remove them of their rights of mobility for the.... economy...

And of course if any of those vulnerable get sick "it's his/her own fault, he/she should have cocooned better" and not of a society forcing the vulnerable to be detained for the "economy" and letting a virus rage on in favor of a strategy no epidemologist defends because they no it's the worse of the options you can choose from all the bad ones...

Are you for real? Instead of incarcerating the few vulnerable your warped idea of fairness is to incarcarate the majority of society, including that vulnerable subset.

Sheer stroke of genius and tour-de-force of logic, that. :rolleyes:

Thats me

cnocbui wrote: »

Game on, son.

Nobel Prize winner: Coronavirus lockdowns cost lives instead of saving them Stanford University biophysicist Michael Levitt, a British American Israeli who won the 2013 Nobel Prize in chemistry, said he believed other health precautions, such as enforcing the use of masks, would have been more effective in combating the pandemic, the Telegraph reported.

“I think lockdown saved no lives. I think it may have cost lives,” Levitt, who is not an epidemiologist, told the publication.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/nobel-prize-winner-coronavirus-lockdowns-saved-no-lives/

Other notable statements made by Levitt during the COVID-19 pandemic include his belief that Israel would suffer no more than 10 COVID-19 deaths[45] and his belief on July 25, 2020 that COVID-19 in the United States would be over "in 4 weeks with total reported deaths below 170,000".

(c) Wikipedia

mcsean2163

Vieira82 wrote: »

Very nice try to deflect the subject to something completely unrelated.

Tell me now... who paid the bill for the crash of 29? Or WW2? Did you bother reading a history book at all in regards to the New Deal or the Marshall Plan, the amount of social support that was offered because in very simple terms if the small fish gets effed then the big fish eventually gets fried too..

Sadly most of the CEOs of big companies are forgetting this precious lesson.

Yes there will be an economic crash, yes there will be a social collapse, yes there will even be even wars...

If and only if those ppl our tax money pays for stop sitting on the laps of big businesses that squeeze us the little fish...

Covid or no covid this current economy system was already on the verge of collapse and proof of that was that months of a pandemic to bring the whole system to it's knees.... Literally millions in the US about to be evicted and the social unrest we see on the TV.

So it was not covid that was going to eff generations, but this bs idea of neo-liberalism that has been eating our society for the last few decades... rents where already unsustainable for younger people, insurance was already a complete cartel scam, getting a house was already difficult for the younger generations and if you think otherwise you've been living under a rock for a long time...

So please, don't cry me a river on younger people that should be educated by the older generations and not be a bunch of spoiled brats that don't even know how to dispose of their own trash.

This situation is proving to many economists how neo-liberalism is a failure and how vital the wellfare state is. Entire countries are creating their recovery fully based on boosting the wellfare state and yes, that means more taxes!

But if by paying more taxes means we actually have a HSE that works and would mean we wouldn't have to lockdown during a pandemic then heck take all my money in tax please!!

I think we are living on the same planet but you seem to be describing a different world.

We are the 3rd most indebted nation per capita in the world. Once Brexit is finished, I fully expect the microscope to be focused on Ireland and our tax scam corporation tax that is robbing all of Europe and if it does and pharmaceutical moves out that's it. We've no room for manoeuvre.

More corporation tax will likely destroy Ireland and more income tax would make it very unattractive to be s high earner in Ireland, (it's already 51%). That means over half goes to the government.

Rock and a hard place. It's been discussed ad nausea how Swedish and Irish death rates for 65+ were very similar.

You don't seem to have awareness how bad things are economically and how young people's development can be impacted by restrictions.

Again, you seem to be suggesting rolling lockdowns to save vulnerable people but sacrificing the very cohort that is needed to support and finance care for the vulnerable. That's akin to burning food to stay warm because it's a bit chilly with no thought to where the food for tomorrow will come from. Aka madness.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Game on, son.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/nobel-prize-winner-coronavirus-lockdowns-saved-no-lives/

What game ?
The Barrington thing or are you moving the goalposts.
Has this Michael Levitt, a Nobel Prize chemist signed it.
If he has then he should seriously consider remove his name.
Those three nut jobs and the shady outfit funding them have no time for social distancing, masks or even hand-washing.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

What game ?
The Barrington thing or are you moving the goalposts.
Has this Michael Levitt, a Nobel Prize chemist signed it.
If he has then he should seriously consider remove his name.
Those three nut jobs and the shady outfit funding them have no time for social distancing, masks or even hand-washing.

What comment have you to make on Czech Rep and other countries that locked down hard?

A hard lockdown only works if you are prepared for opening up. Countries like Ireland, Czech Rep and most countries had no plan in place to live with covid. Their entire approach is an unsustainable shambles. And their exit strategy is a vaccine that is not guaranteed to be fully effective and with a slow uptake, and reluctance among many. Covid is here for years realistically. Do you think its realistic to have several hard lockdowns for the next few years?

Computer Science Student

In my opinion, Sweden have nailed this from day one. Any sane person with some knowledge about numbers and data can see that now. It serves to show that our lockdown did basically nothing, so not sure why we are going for another one. Have to assume it is down to ignorance or simply emotional decision-making leading us away from the facts.

Thats me

Computer Science Student wrote: »

Any sane person with some knowledge about numbers and data can see that now.

Anybody saw sane person with numbers in this thread? :eek:

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

What comment have you to make on Czech Rep and other countries that locked down hard?

A hard lockdown only works if you are prepared for opening up. Countries like Ireland, Czech Rep and most countries had no plan in place to live with covid. Their entire approach is an unsustainable shambles. And their exit strategy is a vaccine that is not guaranteed to be fully effective and with a slow uptake, and reluctance among many. Covid is here for years realistically. Do you think its realistic to have several hard lockdowns for the next few years?

So what are you saying, we all go with the view of this shady Barrington outfit. Let the virus run loose unhindered chasing herd immunity ?
There is not a shred of evidence to support if it is even possible to get the required level of immunity. Anywhere that has tried it or predicting they had it has not panned out.
There is no way of measuring it, no way of knowing who or who has not acquired it, what level they have, or even if they have some level, how long it will last.

PHG

Computer Science Student wrote: »

In my opinion, Sweden have nailed this from day one. Any sane person with some knowledge about numbers and data can see that now. It serves to show that our lockdown did basically nothing, so not sure why we are going for another one. Have to assume it is down to ignorance or simply emotional decision-making leading us away from the facts.

Considering your username, that is quite an ignorant reply. You cannot compare Ireland and Sweden. Culturally alone we are miles apart! The Swedish do exactly what they are told by their govt. 40% of Swedes over 30 live alone unlike in Ireland. They have quite small family and friend circles so less interactions. There is even a thing called the Swedish silence where they only talk on if something meaningful and don't ramble on like us.

The closest comparison is the other Scandinavian countries and Sweden is a long way ahead of them (for the wrong reasons) for total cases and deaths. Also, Swedish records were very laisse faire (at the start you were only tested if you were admitted to hospital) compared to the other countries so it is likely a wider gap.

That is from a snapshot in time now and nobody has any idea what the world will look like in 1 year let alone 10 and who will have got it right or to phrase it better "the best worst option".

Vieira82

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I think we are living on the same planet but you seem to be describing a different world.

We are the 3rd most indebted nation per capita in the world. Once Brexit is finished, I fully expect the microscope to be focused on Ireland and our tax scam corporation tax that is robbing all of Europe and if it does and pharmaceutical moves out that's it. We've no room for manoeuvre.

More corporation tax will likely destroy Ireland and more income tax would make it very unattractive to be s high earner in Ireland, (it's already 51%). That means over half goes to the government.

Rock and a hard place. It's been discussed and nausea how Swedish and Irish death rates for 65+ were very similar.

You don't seem to have awareness how bad things are economically and how young people's development can be impacted by restrictions.

Again, you seem to be suggesting rolling lockdowns to safe vulnerable people but sacrificing the very cohort that is needed to support and finance care for the vulnerable. That's akin to burning food to stay warm because it's a bit chilly with no thought to where the food for tomorrow will come from. Aka madness.

PLOT TWIST there's plenty of countries in the world without:

a) giant corporations

b) high earners

No you don't need them unless they pay their share of tax. If you're ok with your country being a fiscal paradise. Good for you! But that will doom your country economy forever. And sadly so much potential in Ireland being wasted on cattering for corporations and high earners.... but let me guess everything that will take a penny of tax off of them is damaging the economy too right? Right!

charlie14

Computer Science Student wrote: »

In my opinion, Sweden have nailed this from day one. Any sane person with some knowledge about numbers and data can see that now. It serves to show that our lockdown did basically nothing, so not sure why we are going for another one. Have to assume it is down to ignorance or simply emotional decision-making leading us away from the facts.

Sweden`s no lockdown didn`t achieve any tangible benefits either. They have thrown their hat at their herd immunity strategy and are now banking on a vaccine.
With the rise in their numbers, like everywhere else, they have now started using lockdown as well.

Vieira82

cnocbui wrote: »

Are you for real? Instead of incarcerating the few vulnerable your warped idea of fairness is to incarcarate the majority of society, including that vulnerable subset.

Sheer stroke of genius and tour-de-force of logic, that. :rolleyes:

Ah such a closed minded I wouldn't expect you to have any ethics or humanity left in you to understand this. So keep chatting, it's easy to understand to people that actually have a sense of being human and being part of a society... thankfully we're still the majority.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

Sweden`s no lockdown didn`t achieve any tangible benefits either. They have thrown their hat at their herd immunity strategy and are now banking on a vaccine.
With the rise in their numbers, like everywhere else, they have now started using lockdown as well.

Nice try at muddying the waters. They never imposed a lockdown, not nationally or locally. They never ordered workplaces to close like here for no good reason. They never stopped people travelling where they wanted. They requested people voluntarily refrain from some things in one region. Not a lockdown, not even close. The Swedes are too smart to ruin their economy for questionable goals with questionable results. It helps they have a great healthcare system, better testing and tracing and more icu beds of course.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Are you for real? Instead of incarcerating the few vulnerable your warped idea of fairness is to incarcarate the majority of society, including that vulnerable subset.

Sheer stroke of genius and tour-de-force of logic, that. :rolleyes:

Those "few vulnerables" make up 20-25% of the population at a conservative estimate. Using your Barringtons friends formula an even higher percentage.

Your Barrington friends are all in favour of incarcerating over a quarter of the population from any contact with the rest of the population based on a herd immunity theory that has failed where it has been attempted. And whats the plan for multi-generation families. Not everyone under 60 lives in a nursing home. In fact a very small number of those vulnerable do.We have close to 700,000 alone over 65 in this country, according to Nursing Homes Ireland there are less than 30,000 residing in nursing homes.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Nice try at muddying the waters. They never imposed a lockdown, not nationally or locally. They never ordered workplaces to close like here for no good reason. They never stopped people travelling where they wanted. They requested people voluntarily refrain from some things in one region. Not a lockdown, not even close. The Swedes are too smart to ruin their economy for questionable goals with questionable results. It helps they have a great healthcare system, better testing and tracing and more icu beds of course.

You dont have to take my word for it. Johan Nojo the infection diseases doctor for the Upsalla region. "It`s more a lockdown situation, but a local lockdown"
Their economy without lockdown performed worse than ours during lockdown and their unemployment levels are no better than our own.


Nice attemt at a dodge though on the question. Do you like another poster here favour the proposal of this Barrington outfit of pursuing herd immunity by allowing the virus to run loose unhindered ?

321123

charlie14 wrote: »

You dont have to take my word for it. Johan Nojo the infection diseases doctor for the Upsalla region. "It`s more a lockdown situation, but a local lockdown"
Their economy without lockdown performed worse than ours during lockdown and their unemployment levels are no better than our own.


Nice attemt at a dodge though on the question. Do you like another poster here favour the proposal of this Barrington outfit of pursuing herd immunity by allowing the virus to run loose unhindered ?

You have a tendancy to just skip posts you don't like and then just go and find stuff online that isn't even accurate. This is my post from yesterday:

321123 wrote: »

Just had a chat with my partner who is Swedish and listened to the press conference regarding the new recommendations for Uppsala.

Uppsala is a university town and the virus has gone from mostly just spreading among students to more the general public. So in order to stop the spread they have taken these steps.

It is a two week specific ask that people limit the social interaction to people they live with or relatives and that public transportation is avoided if it is not absolutely necessary to get to work that can't be done from home or to go to education.

Shops are asked to limit the customers if necessary but no specific limit is mentioned.

Anders Tegnell was asked about restaurants and bars and said that people should avoid meeting up there in larger groups but that family and close friends is fine as long as it is in smaller groups. And they have no plans to work towards closing or regulating them.

So nothing is being closed in Uppsala (not even nursing homes from visitors).

Judge for yourself if that sounds like a lockdown to you. Sounds more like Irish Level 1 or so to me (minus requirement for facemasks).

Hopefully it will have enough effect and Uppsala can go back to more normality in a few weeks. The aim is still to live with the virus on an overall level and in order to do that short targeted recommendations like these are going to be used.

Is that a lockdown to you? In this English interview with Dr Johan Nöjd he explains clearly what it is all about. No mention of lockdown or closing anything: https://www.thelocal.se/20201021/qa-uppsalas-infectious-disease-doctor-explains-new-restrictions

tobefrank321

321123 wrote: »

You have a tendancy to just skip posts you don't like and then just go and find stuff online that isn't even accurate. This is my post from yesterday:



Is that a lockdown to you? In this English interview with Dr Johan Nöjd he explains clearly what it is all about. No mention of lockdown or closing anything: https://www.thelocal.se/20201021/qa-uppsalas-infectious-disease-doctor-explains-new-restrictions

Why take the word of your partner in Sweden when we have the word of our regular armchair Swedish expert whose never even been to Sweden!

Yes lockdown means forced workplace closures such as retail and hospitality as well as limiting people close to their homes. None of that is happening anywhere in Sweden.

mcsean2163

Vieira82 wrote: »

PLOT TWIST there's plenty of countries in the world without:

a) giant corporations

b) high earners

No you don't need them unless they pay their share of tax. If you're ok with your country being a fiscal paradise. Good for you! But that will doom your country economy forever. And sadly so much potential in Ireland being wasted on cattering for corporations and high earners.... but let me guess everything that will take a penny of tax off of them is damaging the economy too right? Right!

Do you have a plan to continue to pay our national debt after coronavirus and in the absence large corporations that will presumably leave after our corporation tax doubles?
If so, I'd love to hear it.

I wonder how your plan will affect life expectancy...

321123

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Why take the word of your partner in Sweden when we have the word of our regular armchair Swedish expert whose never even been to Sweden!

It has become ridiculous as someone living in Sweden to sit and read all the made up **** posted on Boards, other social media and in the comments fields in the legacy media about Sweden at the moment. Both the stuff that no-one cares here about Covid anymore which isn't really true, but also all about Sweden heading into lockdown, that the majority is against the Swedish strategy and other crap.

Will unfollow this thread now. It gives high blood pressure for no reason. Hope the Irish lockdown will have a good effect, that you take care of eachother and that both Sweden and Ireland will come well out of this. Both countries are after all my home.

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

Those "few vulnerables" make up 20-25% of the population at a conservative estimate. Using your Barringtons friends formula an even higher percentage.

Your Barrington friends are all in favour of incarcerating over a quarter of the population from any contact with the rest of the population based on a herd immunity theory that has failed where it has been attempted. And whats the plan for multi-generation families. Not everyone under 60 lives in a nursing home. In fact a very small number of those vulnerable do.We have close to 700,000 alone over 65 in this country, according to Nursing Homes Ireland there are less than 30,000 residing in nursing homes.

Have a good read, Charlie: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115013811&postcount=2368

and https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115013875&postcount=2374

and:

Heartbroken father pleads with NHS hospitals not to delay lifesaving treatments due to Covid after his daughter, 29, died of breast cancer following 10-month wait for diagnosis

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8862853/Father-pleads-hospitals-not-delay-treatments-daughter-29-died-breast-cancer.html

And another:

Devoted mother-of-four, 31, dies from brain cancer after her chemotherapy was stopped for three months due to Covid lockdown

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8864265/Devoted-mother-four-31-dies-brain-cancer.html

and:

One in three lung cancer patients have died since coronavirus pandemic began and referrals plunged by 75% during first lockdown

Experts said one in three people with lung cancer has died during Covid-19 crisis
Some deaths are mislabelled as Covid as a cough is a symptom of lung cancer
UK Lung Cancer Coalition's report says delays to diagnosis, treatment and tests during lockdown could lead to 1,372 avoidable deaths in next five years

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8861519/Coronavirus-UK-Lung-cancer-referrals-plunged-75-lockdown.html

and:

Popular Youtuber, 30, who thought shoulder pain was from arm wrestle with his father dies from rare cancer after failing to get medical treatment when Covid lockdown began

David Macmillan, 30, died from cancer after his shoulder pain went undiagnosed
He was unable to see a GP and Covid pandemic cancelled a meeting with physio
'If someone had examined him we might have found out sooner,' says his mother

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8858721/Youtuber-30-dies-rare-cancer-Covid-lockdown-stopped-seeing-GP-physio.html

Lockdowns are great, kill the young to save the really old. The rise in cancer deaths attributable to the covid-19 response was predicted and now we are beginning to see the terrible consequences.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

Those "few vulnerables" make up 20-25% of the population at a conservative estimate. Using your Barringtons friends formula an even higher percentage.

Your Barrington friends are all in favour of incarcerating over a quarter of the population from any contact with the rest of the population based on a herd immunity theory that has failed where it has been attempted. And whats the plan for multi-generation families. Not everyone under 60 lives in a nursing home. In fact a very small number of those vulnerable do.We have close to 700,000 alone over 65 in this country, according to Nursing Homes Ireland there are less than 30,000 residing in nursing homes.

This quarter of the population. Are they free to do as they please in Ireland or anywhere else? The point of the BD is a short term isolation to allow herd immunity build rapidly in the healthy so the vulnerable are then protected. Its a more realistic target than locking down 100% of the population for months at a time while waiting for a vaccine that may but realistically will not achieve herd immunity 12 months from now.

But then again herd immunity is only a secondary goal of the Swedes, the primary one to avoid lockdowns.

The Swedes are realists, not holding out for some magical vaccine to save them, knowing full well that a vaccine is going to give mixed results. But as I said before their healthcare and their version of the HSE is light years ahead of us.

Thats me

cnocbui wrote: »

Lockdowns are great, kill the young to save the really old.

The idea of lockdown is to "flatten the curve" to avoid overloading health system with infected patients. Unlikely situation would be any better if hospitals would be overcrowded by COVID-19 patients. Hard to prove obvious things though.

charlie14

321123 wrote: »

You have a tendancy to just skip posts you don't like and then just go and find stuff online that isn't even accurate. This is my post from yesterday:



Is that a lockdown to you? In this English interview with Dr Johan Nöjd he explains clearly what it is all about. No mention of lockdown or closing anything: https://www.thelocal.se/20201021/qa-uppsalas-infectious-disease-doctor-explains-new-restrictions

I can only tell you what I read from an interview he gave. I quoted it here earlier. From that for me it was if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Have a good read, Charlie: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115013811&postcount=2368

and https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115013875&postcount=2374

and:



And another:


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8864265/Devoted-mother-four-31-dies-brain-cancer.html

and:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8861519/Coronavirus-UK-Lung-cancer-referrals-plunged-75-lockdown.html

and:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8858721/Youtuber-30-dies-rare-cancer-Covid-lockdown-stopped-seeing-GP-physio.html

Lockdowns are great, kill the young to save the really old. The rise in cancer deaths attributable to the covid-19 response was predicted and now we are beginning to see the terrible consequences.

Any chance you might answer a question anytime soon or am I just supposed to play pass the parcel with you on your terms ?

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

This quarter of the population. Are they free to do as they please in Ireland or anywhere else? The point of the BD is a short term isolation to allow herd immunity build rapidly in the healthy so the vulnerable are then protected. Its a more realistic target than locking down 100% of the population for months at a time while waiting for a vaccine that may but realistically will not achieve herd immunity 12 months from now.

But then again herd immunity is only a secondary goal of the Swedes, the primary one to avoid lockdowns.

The Swedes are realists, not holding out for some magical vaccine to save them, knowing full well that a vaccine is going to give mixed results. But as I said before their healthcare and their version of the HSE is light years ahead of us.

Can we cut the BS for a start ?
Denying at this stage that herd immunity was not the major driver behind Sweden`strategy is like denying the sun rises from the east.
I know the theory behind acquired herd immunity. What I do not know, nor does anyone who predicted the time required to achieve it, We have had two experts here who were sure they knew Giesecke and Levitt where neither were within an ass`s roar of getting it right.
Even if you went for it as I`ve said to you already, not only have the predictions,modelling figures and the one example who thought they had achieved it been near that roar either.


Nobody know if it can be achieved, let alone measure if enough have level of immunity required, what level they have or how long it would last.
It`s a vague theory with no scientific basis.

How many viruses have we gained acquired herd immunity for in this short term you are talking about ?