Sweden avoiding lockdown

Vieira82

99nsr125 wrote: »

Actually that was me you gave that response too and it very effectively proves you are in fact going around in circles.

Notably however, I never claimed herd immunity as a cure-all but our most likely, most realistic and best chance as vaccine development is a decades long process and countless diseases that devastated us in the past still circulate. Bubonic plague, TB , leprosy even mumps, measles and polio all still circulate.

There is no eradicating Covid, indeed there have been waves of flu in the past that hit the world but we didn't give them a separate name. The moniker makes the hysteria without it we would have the normal trolleywatch figures instead.

yes there is a way to erradicate covid, all viruses are possible to be erradicated. Look at the history of WHO and how many virulent diseases they have erradicated. Took time, humongous collective effort but it´s possible.

But you are avoiding a question indeed, because it is impossible to have herd immunity in just 8 months. Absolutely impossible.

Also saying this is just a flu just reveals how terrible your knowledge of this is. Yes, it has already killed more than the flu in a year, no it has not killed as many as the Spanish Flu, yet.

A coronavirus is not a flu virus, genetically they are very different and produce different outcomes in a host body.

If you can't understand this, that it's the most basic of information available about it then it's your own problem for being in denial trying to fob this off. 8 months on....

MelbourneMan

99nsr125 wrote: »

Flattening the curve you understand doesn't save anyone. Doesn't reduce the final number of cases or deaths or hospitalizations and so on. It just makes it appear like we have a handle on it when in reality we simply never have.

This is a quite incorrect understanding that I cannot allow go unchecked. 'Flattening the curve' as it is commonly termed does indeed reduce cases, hospitalisation, and deaths. That such a statement can be published here unrestrained by the moderation is astonishing. We must all work together as a society to ensure only accurate information on the virus is communicated.

sheepysheep

Vieira82 wrote: »

yes there is a way to erradicate covid, all viruses are possible to be erradicated. Look at the history of WHO and how many virulent diseases they have erradicated. Took time, humongous collective effort but it´s possible.

But you are avoiding a question indeed, because it is impossible to have herd immunity in just 8 months. Absolutely impossible.

Also saying this is just a flu just reveals how terrible your knowledge of this is. Yes, it has already killed more than the flu in a year, no it has not killed as many as the Spanish Flu, yet.

A coronavirus is not a flu virus, genetically they are very different and produce different outcomes in a host body.

If you can't understand this, that it's the most basic of information available about it then it's your own problem for being in denial trying to fob this off. 8 months on....

How does someone who posts so much drivel not even have the most basic comprehension of what their talking about.

Only 2 infectious have ever been eradicated, smallpox and rinderpest. And one of those was in cows!

joseywhales

Being realistic, the hope is probably to make it into a third world disease like many others.

mcsean2163

Vieira82 wrote: »

That is 100% a lie. Other countries do not or did not have these policies at all under covid or regular times. It's an extreme situation ONLY when the patient has no other chance of survival. And not used if a person just gets sick

Actually in Portugal we had a number of care homes with cases and always there was a huge drive to save everyone and clean the care home.

One particular case back in April became famous as of the 10 workers 9 got infected and so the care home was down to one worker and the director literally doing everything they could to save the residents. Portuguese Health Officials where swamped trying to control outbreaks in the region but in the end they where able to move the elderly to other facilities while the place was deep cleaned.

This did not happen in Sweden and maybe it doesn't happen in Ireland, I don't know. But two wrongs don't make it right... and 100% that was not the norm to care for the elderly anywhere else during the first wave.

Are you aware that 20% of people entering nursing homes die within 3 months.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/study-reveals-nursing-home-death-rate-1.747254?mode=amp

They're not exactly the promised land. If you've ever had an ill elderly relative moved to ICU, you might understand that sometimes it's more humane to let someone die peacefully.

If you have a relative you care about in a ltcf, might be worth calling in if you can.

mcsean2163

99nsr125 wrote: »

Flattening the curve you understand doesn't save anyone. Doesn't reduce the final number of cases or deaths or hospitalizations and so on. It just makes it appear like we have a handle on it when in reality we simply never have.

Flatten the curve saves people as icu's do not become overwhelmed. That means people can still get ICU treatment if needed and recover.

Also, since infection may not confer immunity, flattening may be essential to save lives if seasonal like influenza.

Sam Quentin

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So Ireland failed to protect its most vulnerable citizens in the same way Sweden did.

The similarities will become evident when the trial takes place for both nations in The Hague.

Sweden’s hearing won’t take as long, they won’t be tried for removing its citizens civil liberties

You do know all countries are doing their very best to protect and save all it's citizens.

99nsr125

MelbourneMan wrote: »

This is a quite incorrect understanding that I cannot allow go unchecked. 'Flattening the curve' as it is commonly termed does indeed reduce cases, hospitalisation, and deaths. That such a statement can be published here unrestrained by the moderation is astonishing. We must all work together as a society to ensure only accurate information on the virus is communicated.

No it's not, it's unquestionably correct.

Check up on statistical physics and mathematics.

The area under the curve is the same regardless of the peak. Elongation of the parabola does not change any of the other factors, so your time scale may have changed but everything else remains the same.

Nobody is saved, meanwhile you doom millions across the world, shortening there lives, through poverty, killing many more through deprivation.

For Ireland, for 5 million people a single hour taken away from the population is the equivalent of 7 lives. That's twice the current fatality rate and doesn't account for any of the other term effects of most notably prosperity destruction and resource misallocation causing deaths of people we currently can and do cure.

Our only hope is a vaccine that may never arrive or most likely arrive too late

99nsr125

Vieira82 wrote: »

yes there is a way to erradicate covid, all viruses are possible to be erradicated. Look at the history of WHO and how many virulent diseases they have erradicated. Took time, humongous collective effort but it´s possible.

But you are avoiding a question indeed, because it is impossible to have herd immunity in just 8 months. Absolutely impossible.

Also saying this is just a flu just reveals how terrible your knowledge of this is. Yes, it has already killed more than the flu in a year, no it has not killed as many as the Spanish Flu, yet.

A coronavirus is not a flu virus, genetically they are very different and produce different outcomes in a host body.

If you can't understand this, that it's the most basic of information available about it then it's your own problem for being in denial trying to fob this off. 8 months on....

Yes it's not, it's actually less virulent

The cfr rate for those under 70 is half of cfr rate for flu but this is lost in the hysteria.

Geuze

Vieira82 wrote: »

Right! So because the same thing hapenned in Ireland! your argument now is that it's normal for this to happen and we should continue to do so.

Shouldn't you be AGAINST this instead of defending and actually be appalled at what they let happen in Ireland and not literally wishing/defending a continuation of the same?

It is medically correct to not send 85 year olds to ICU.

99nsr125

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Flatten the curve saves people as icu's do not become overwhelmed. That means people can still get ICU treatment if needed and recover.

Also, since infection may not confer immunity, flattening may be essential to save lives if seasonal like influenza.

It does not and cannot reduce the number of cases, it just elongates the timeframe.

You're conflating resource shortage with cfr of covid

You manage your resources as best you can but this in itself does nothing to reduce case numbers and the number of those who ultimately succumb

Graham

99nsr125 wrote: »

It does not and cannot reduce the number of cases, it just elongate the timeframe

Tosh

Flattening the curve means we have the resources to treat those cases.

Something we wouldn't be able to do if our health services became overwhelmed.

99nsr125

Graham wrote: »

Tosh

Flattening the curve means we have the resources to treat those cases.

Something we wouldn't be able to do if our health services became overwhelmed.

You're mixing resource allocation with case numbers
They are not the same.

You could similarly say we should not allocate healthcare to anybody with covid because it uses resources originally assigned to other ailments. Of course thay is ultimately correct, resources should be expanded to cope with the new threat.

Each year choices are made with respect to healthcare budgets for different sectors. These choices ultimately result in the deaths of people.

Breast Cancer has a high profile but also high survivability rate yet Prostate Cancer kills more, so should we take resources away from breast cancer screening, the harsh answer would be yes but that's a lowering of the standard of treatment when the actual answer is to increase the under resourced.

Irrespective of resource allocation cases of cancer remain consistent

Graham

99nsr125 wrote: »

You're mixing resource allocation with case numbers

The main point of flattening the curve was to make sure our health services were not overwhelmed.

Try parking 3 cars in the sam parking space at the same time, then compare that to parking 3 cars in the same space at different times. You'll see how it works.

JimmyVik

Graham wrote: »

The main point of flattening the curve was to make sure our health services were not overwhelmed.

Try parking 3 cars in the sam parking space at the same time, then compare that to parking 3 cars in the same space at different times. You'll see how it works.

I dont think they understand that its the difference between being left in a tent in the car park and being in the ICU with all the equipment to save you.

Vieira82

sheepysheep wrote: »

How does someone who posts so much drivel not even have the most basic comprehension of what their talking about.

Only 2 infectious have ever been eradicated, smallpox and rinderpest. And one of those was in cows!

ah would you look at that let's spit on WHO's cup of tea a bit more will we?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases

Count at least FIVE that you in your little first world Irish cottage don't have to worry about anymore. And some of those returned because of stupid anti-vaxxers....

But facts? What do they matter right?

Also nice try to nitpick anything I write. Since you have no other arguments besides "oh yeah! oh yeah!" you have to go and find anything to try and break an argument.

Guess what? Contrary to all of the side you defend. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when I am wrong. I'll wait here for you and all your friends in this thread to have the guts to admit your failures on this topic. So far none of you never did so, all you do is devolve into insults, sarcastic comments and nitpicking bs...

So don't worry, I'm more a man you'll ever be as I know to admit my mistakes and am happy to make them and admit them

charlie14

99nsr125 wrote: »

Actually that was me you gave that response too and it very effectively proves you are in fact going around in circles.

Notably however, I never claimed herd immunity as a cure-all but our most likely, most realistic and best chance as vaccine development is a decades long process and countless diseases that devastated us in the past still circulate. Bubonic plague, TB , leprosy even mumps, measles and polio all still circulate.

There is no eradicating Covid, indeed there have been waves of flu in the past that hit the world but we didn't give them a separate name. The moniker makes the hysteria without it we would have the normal trolleywatch figures instead.

All that is correct if you ignore reality.
Main one being your continually ignoring that vaccine development is not decades away. It is in the here and now with some in the final stages of development and other approaching that stage.



Citing Bubonic plaque, TB, Leprosy, Mumps, Measles and Polio in support of your naturally acquired herd immunity theory is a nonsense.
The human race had eons to acquire herd immunity for all of them and was going nowhere until antibiotics and vaccines were developed to virtually wipe out some and greatly reduce the mortality rates of the rest.

sheepysheep

Vieira82 wrote: »

ah would you look at that let's spit on WHO's cup of tea a bit more will we?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases

Count at least FIVE that you in your little first world Irish cottage don't have to worry about anymore. And some of those returned because of stupid anti-vaxxers....

But facts? What do they matter right?

Also nice try to nitpick anything I write. Since you have no other arguments besides "oh yeah! oh yeah!" you have to go and find anything to try and break an argument.

Guess what? Contrary to all of the side you defend. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when I am wrong. I'll wait here for you and all your friends in this thread to have the guts to admit your failures on this topic. So far none of you never did so, all you do is devolve into insults, sarcastic comments and nitpicking bs...

So don't worry, I'm more a man you'll ever be as I know to admit my mistakes and am happy to make them and admit them

To Begin: Let me state. Christ almighty!

I didn't spit on WHO. Great work being done by great people.

You literally made up a 'Fact', attempted to give it credibility by linking it to WHO and posted it.

It's not nitpicking. Just pointing out some classic trolling behaviour.

What five have been eradicated?
Which have been 'returned' by antivaxxers'?

Within the context of the discussion on vaccines, it's important to point out that a Covid-19 vaccine may not be the panacea some people are hoping for unfortunately.

If your self conception of your manliness has been formed by the amount of mistakes you make on this thread alone then you are indeed one might hell of a man.

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So Ireland failed to protect its most vulnerable citizens in the same way Sweden did.

The similarities will become evident when the trial takes place for both nations in The Hague.

Sweden’s hearing won’t take as long, they won’t be tried for removing its citizens civil liberties

Are you not perhaps losing the run of yourself Fintan.

Vieira82

sheepysheep wrote: »

To Begin: Let me state. Christ almighty!

I didn't spit on WHO. Great work being done by great people.

You literally made up a 'Fact', attempted to give it credibility by linking it to WHO and posted it.

It's not nitpicking. Just pointing out some classic trolling behaviour.

What five have been eradicated?
Which have been 'returned' by antivaxxers'?

Within the context of the discussion on vaccines, it's important to point out that a Covid-19 vaccine may not be the panacea some people are hoping for unfortunately.

If your self conception of your manliness has been formed by the amount of mistakes you make on this thread alone then you are indeed one might hell of a man.

Dude... read the article I linked!!! Measles came back because of anti-vaxxers in the last decade! Polio, Smallpox. Rabies eradicated in Europe, Rubella is also practically on the way out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles#Europe

Typical to call a troll when you have zero arguments, as always When there's no arguments all you lot can achieve is cheap attacks without any basis. Feel free to continue to talk I'll be happy to prove you wrong once more.

99nsr125

Vieira82 wrote: »

Dude... read the article I linked!!! Measles came back because of anti-vaxxers in the last decade! Polio, Smallpox. Rabies eradicated in Europe, Rubella is also practically on the way out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles#Europe

Typical to call a troll when you have zero arguments, as always When there's no arguments all you lot can achieve is cheap attacks without any basis. Feel free to continue to talk I'll be happy to prove you wrong once more.

Changing the goalposts to leave out the rest of the world does not remove the existence of a disease.

We reduced them through vaccination, proven, safe and effective vaccination but they are still with us, we are still vulnerable to them and we live with them.

JimmyVik

99nsr125 wrote: »

Changing the goalposts to leave out the rest of the world does not remove the existence of a disease.

We reduced them through vaccination, proven, safe and effective vaccination but they are still with us, we are still vulnerable to them and we live with them.

I think you are the one moving the goal posts.


Just as one example. Noone has to live with measles if they dont want to.

99nsr125

charlie14 wrote: »

All that is correct if you ignore reality.
Main one being your continually ignoring that vaccine development is not decades away. It is in the here and now with some in the final stages of development and other approaching that stage.



Citing Bubonic plaque, TB, Leprosy, Mumps, Measles and Polio in support of your naturally acquired herd immunity theory is a nonsense.
The human race had eons to acquire herd immunity for all of them and was going nowhere until antibiotics and vaccines were developed to virtually wipe out some and greatly reduce the mortality rates of the rest.

*You* are ignoring reality of vaccine development.

Several of the trials have already been halted as has been the case for other vaccine development in the past.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ea4c5e4-abc8-4b7a-8fe2-64ad22ea3978

Early prospects only very rarely make it all the way.

I quoted a mixture of bacterial and viral afflictions which in the case of the virus's confer immunity after recovery.

New people are born without antibodies providing reserves or hosts for the continual presence of them. That's why we vaccinate to protect those without antibodies and limit the number of hosts that allow disease to persist.

Actually we have residual boosted immunity protection from HIV courtesy of smallpox/plagues in Europe.

https://www.nature.com/news/2005/050307/full/news050307-15.html#:~:text=Experts%20argue%20over%20whether%20smallpox%20or%20plague%20should%20take%20the%20credit.&text=Devastating%20epidemics%20that%20swept%20Europe,Europeans%20resistant%20to%20HIV%20infection.

JimmyVik

99nsr125 wrote: »

*You* are ignoring reality of vaccine development.

Several of the trials have already been halted as has been the case for other vaccine development in the past.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ea4c5e4-abc8-4b7a-8fe2-64ad22ea3978

Early prospects only very rarely make it all the way.

I quoted a mixture of bacterial and viral afflictions which in the case of the virus's confer immunity after recovery.

New people are born without antibodies providing reserves or hosts for the continual presence of them. That's why we vaccinate to protect those without antibodies and limit the number of hosts that allow disease to persist.

Actually we have residual boosted immunity protection from HIV courtesy of smallpox/plagues in Europe.

https://www.nature.com/news/2005/050307/full/news050307-15.html#:~:text=Experts%20argue%20over%20whether%20smallpox%20or%20plague%20should%20take%20the%20credit.&text=Devastating%20epidemics%20that%20swept%20Europe,Europeans%20resistant%20to%20HIV%20infection.

Have you left planet earth
Take a breath. Read the thread. Read the news about vaccines.
Youll be much more relaxed.

99nsr125

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think you are the one moving the goal posts.


Just as one example. Noone has to live with measles if they dont want to.

Well quite a significant part of the world does have to

I know it's an obvious question but
Does measles still exist ? and circulate in Ireland

It's a simple question, you already know the answer.

JimmyVik

99nsr125 wrote: »

Well quite a significant part of the world does have to

I know it's an obvious question but
Does measles still exist ? and circulate in Ireland

It's a simple question, you already know the answer.

Indeed it does. Do you have to be worried about it if arent anti-vaxxer>
It's a simple question, you already know the answer.

99nsr125

JimmyVik wrote: »

Have you left planet earth
Take a breath. Read the thread. Read the news about vaccines.
Youll be much more relaxed.

I'm perfectly relaxed, I just do not approve or find it constructive that people are being sold this story that they'll be a vaccine "by the Autumn" , "in time for the election" "by early 2021".

You can't live your life based on a future event that may or may not happen. You can only live based on current circumstances.

JimmyVik

99nsr125 wrote: »

I'm perfectly relaxed, I just do not approve or find it constructive that people are being sold this story that they'll be a vaccine "by the Autumn" , "in time for the election" "by early 2021".

You can't live your life based on a future event that may or may not happen. You can only live based on current circumstances.

Have you been keeping up with the news at all?

suicide_circus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So Ireland failed to protect its most vulnerable citizens in the same way Sweden did.

The similarities will become evident when the trial takes place for both nations in The Hague.

Sweden’s hearing won’t take as long, they won’t be tried for removing its citizens civil liberties

When do you think we'll see Michael, Leo and Eamo on trial in The Hague?

99nsr125

JimmyVik wrote: »

Indeed it does. Do you have to be worried about it if arent anti-vaxxer>
It's a simple question, you already know the answer.

So yes you agree that a disease we can and do vaccinate against still circulates.

Ok
This was the original point, covid is not going away, lockdown will not eradicate it and over zealous lockdown measures will cause more deaths than the disease itself.

Lockdown is not a treatment, it is not a plan, it's what you do when you have no plan, you run from the problem.

We can't run from it, because sooner or later you have to stop running then you have to face it the way you should have in the first place. Only you've lost all the time in-between for nothing.

Also vaccines are not 100-percent effective some people do not have a strong enough immune response