Sweden avoiding lockdown

Hands Like Flippers

greyday wrote: »

We will check in again next week........It looks like a crisis situation to me but Tegnell might find a way to reduce the numbers again.

At a basic level should we not be comparing three things to be fair about it:

1. Infections & deaths.
2. Restrictions on freedoms/affect on economy.
3. Excess deaths with cancer etc.

In the UK for example, it is estimated that there have been 3M missed GP appointments, tens of thousands of missed cancer referrals etc. That is of the main reasons why I object to the cv19 only approach. Maybe in Ireland there has been no adverse affect for people with cancer etc.

FintanMcluskey

greyday wrote: »

We will check in again next week........It looks like a crisis situation to me but Tegnell might find a way to reduce the numbers again.

Yeah I think the conspiracy forum is more suited to that idea.


I notice the only metric to hammer Sweden with is case numbers, irrelevant of course as they increased the ICU capacity as instructed.

Ireland increased its excuse production as to why it’s ICU capacity is not up to standard

greyday

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Yeah I think the conspiracy forum is more suited to that idea.


I notice the only metric to hammer Sweden with is case numbers, irrelevant of course as they increased the ICU capacity as instructed.

Ireland increased its excuse production as to why it’s ICU capacity is not up to standard

And now Tegnell says the hospitals are reaching the ceiling for what they can cope with.

charlie14

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

At a basic level should we not be comparing three things to be fair about it:

1. Infections & deaths.
2. Restrictions on freedoms/affect on economy.
3. Excess deaths with cancer etc.

In the UK for example, it is estimated that there have been 3M missed GP appointments, tens of thousands of missed cancer referrals etc. That is of the main reasons why I object to the cv19 only approach. Maybe in Ireland there has been no adverse affect for people with cancer etc.

1. There is no correlation between any day`s infections and that day`s deaths. It will often be weeks after being infected before some succumb.
The ratio of deaths to infections varies depending on who is infected. Aged or vulnerable it will be higher than younger and healthier.
2. Restrictions reduce the spread of infections, and there is no evidence that Sweden`s strategy has gained any economic benefit.
3. We have no idea yet on excess deaths, but it would be incorrect to assume that during the first wave Sweden`s didn`t cancel screening services and none emergency surgery. Same as anywhere else they sensibly recognised that the last place you want people with underlying conditions or cancer patients with suppressed immunity is in a hospital setting alongside patients with Covid-19.

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

Same as anywhere else they sensibly recognised that the last place you want people with underlying conditions or cancer patients with suppressed immunity is in a hospital setting alongside patients with Covid-19.

Who is they? The last thing a cancer patient wants is for their cancer treatment to be delayed or not diagnosed. And speaking with my haematology consultant, he and his colleagues certainly don't share your view. The opposite in fact, they're frustrated that the government's strategy is ignoring far more serious illnesses. Obviously safeguards need to be put in place to treat cancer patients but the reduction in cancer diagnoses indicate the problem is building up to be a catastrophe.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

Who is they? The last thing a cancer patient wants is for their cancer treatment to be delayed or not diagnosed. And speaking with my haematology consultant, he and his colleagues certainly don't share your view. The opposite in fact, they're frustrated that the government's strategy is ignoring far more serious illnesses. Obviously safeguards need to be put in place to treat cancer patients but the reduction in cancer diagnoses indicate the problem is building up to be a catastrophe.

It`s not my view. Far as I know Sweden did no different.

Bit cynical

charlie14 wrote: »

It`s not my view. Far as I know Sweden did no different.

Your view was that the policy was sensible.

"...they sensibly recognised that the last place you want..."

Now you are trying to back out of it.

charlie14

Bit cynical wrote: »

Your view was that the policy was sensible.

I did. Still do, and I gave the reasons why I thought it sensible.

greyday

One just has to see the number of healthcare workers worldwide that caught the virus to know those with underlying conditions are increasing their chances of catching the virus by visiting hospitals.

charlie14

Bit cynical wrote: »

Your view was that the policy was sensible.

"...they sensibly recognised that the last place you want..."

Now you are trying to back out of it.

greyday

Bit cynical wrote: »

Sweden averaging about 19 per 100,000 per day; Ireland 16 per day over the last 7 days. Higher but I don't think 8 times higher. Daily deaths about 3 times higher in Ireland over the last 7 days per capita.

I think what people fail to take into account is that Sweden report on 4 days of the week so for example Tuesday will report four days worth of deaths (Saturday to Tuesday) in comparison to another country that reports every day. Also people fail to take into account that Sweden has twice the population as Ireland.

If you want to be pedantic, you insinuated last night that people did not take account of Swedens population in comparison to Ireland and that the high numbers published during the week were across multiple days, neither of which was true.

the incredible pudding

charlie14 wrote: »

It`s not my view. Far as I know Sweden did no different.

I thought I replied with this information before, they were on hold for about a month in April and reinstated in May.

Vieira82

Posting this image with the honest question. Why are we still debating this instead of looking at what the other countries faring way better than any country in Europe is at the moment? Are we that Eurocentric that we cannot to any degree admit that what other countries in Asia did/are doing should be applied in Europe and avoid any other extreme measures like locking down from happening?


https://miro.medium.com/max/2160/1*aO7H4li2C1xP8V8gUm2Afw.png

Edit: and just as I mention this, today's WHO press conference starts about the success in controlling covid19 in Asia: https://fb.watch/1vX8lurcs7/

Breezin

Vieira82 wrote: »

Posting this image with the honest question. Why are we still debating this instead of looking at what the other countries faring way better than any country in Europe is at the moment? Are we that Eurocentric that we cannot to any degree admit that what other countries in Asia did/are doing should be applied in Europe and avoid any other extreme measures like locking down from happening?


https://miro.medium.com/max/2160/1*aO7H4li2C1xP8V8gUm2Afw.png

Authoritarian regimes, or countries that are easily sealed off, e.g. NZ.


Nothing stopping you starting a thread on Vietnam's response to Covid.

greyday

Its been a while since the threat of death by firing squad was used in Europe.
There is a good article in Der Spiegel about the ordinary Chinese persons outlook on the virus , we certainly dont look down with the same shame on people who do not obey the rules as the Chinese do.

Vieira82

obviously Democracy is still improving in Asia but there's plenty of countries getting there. And despite what has been suggested it's not even the authoritarian countries doing better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#Democracy_Index_by_country_2019

And no Asia is not only China

Bit cynical

Probably also a lot of under-reporting in the poorer Asian countries.

FintanMcluskey

greyday wrote: »

Its been a while since the threat of death by firing squad was used in Europe.
There is a good article in Der Spiegel about the ordinary Chinese persons outlook on the virus , we certainly dont look down with the same shame on people who do not obey the rules as the Chinese do.

The good old days of death by firing squad.

One day hopefully they will come back and we can snipe the next clown that has his mask on below his nose.

Vieira82

the amount of strawman arguments would be overly impressive if it wasn't the same kind of people that always have them. As always, facts don't matter, real information, real data does not matter, just whatever they can answer to validate whatever distorted view of the world they have

Ginger n Lemon

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

Total Swedish deaths at 30th October 2020 for 2020 :75,644
On average 250 deaths per day.

If this continues (as it has been continuing since July....) to 31 December, they ll finish on 91,122 deaths.

Look at their deaths in 2018.

Deadly Covid pandemic indeed :rolleyes:

Tegnell - hats off.

Vieira82

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

Total Swedish deaths at 30th October 2020 for 2020 :75,644
On average 250 deaths per day.

If this continues (as it has been continuing since July....) to 31 December, they ll finish on 91,122 deaths.

Look at their deaths in 2018.

Deadly Covid pandemic indeed :rolleyes:

Tegnell - hats off.

you do realize that logic makes no sense at all? xD

If the country has 5k deaths (lets assume it stays this number for arguments sake) by covid and that puts it at its decade average it is still very bad as it means the country WITHOUT covid would havE LESS 5k deaths.

It means that the country had an EXCESS of 5k deaths in a year it would have LESS 5k deaths than the decade average? How on earth is that a success? xD

Does this information even enter your mind? Or all you want is to be right in an extremely twisted and irrational way? xD

Bit cynical

Vieira82 wrote: »

you do realize that logic makes no sense at all? xD

If the country has 5k deaths (lets assume it stays this number for arguments sake) by covid and that puts it at its decade average it is still very bad as it means the country WITHOUT covid would havE LESS 5k deaths.

It means that the country had an EXCESS of 5k deaths in a year it would have LESS 5k deaths than the decade average? How on earth is that a success? xD

Does this information even enter your mind? Or all you want is to be right in an extremely twisted and irrational way? xD

5k fewer deaths with Covid-19 does not imply 5k fewer deaths overall for the year.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

Total Swedish deaths at 30th October 2020 for 2020 :75,644
On average 250 deaths per day.

If this continues (as it has been continuing since July....) to 31 December, they ll finish on 91,122 deaths.

Look at their deaths in 2018.

Deadly Covid pandemic indeed :rolleyes:

Tegnell - hats off.

We you not predicting a few weeks ago the Sweden`s annual deaths this year would be below lasts years figure of 88,766


If Sweden`s daily deaths remain at the normal rate of 250 per day that 91.122 would be near enough correct.
If however Sweden`s daily deaths reached the level for those 9 weeks at the height of their first wave, where daily deaths were on average 317, then annual deaths would be 95,615.
Hopefully with the regional authorities for the majority of the population now going with lockdown levels the numbers will be nowhere close to that.

Ginger n Lemon

Vieira82 wrote: »

you do realize that logic makes no sense at all? xD

If the country has 5k deaths (lets assume it stays this number for arguments sake) by covid and that puts it at its decade average it is still very bad as it means the country WITHOUT covid would havE LESS 5k deaths.

It means that the country had an EXCESS of 5k deaths in a year it would have LESS 5k deaths than the decade average? How on earth is that a success? xD

Does this information even enter your mind? Or all you want is to be right in an extremely twisted and irrational way? xD

I dont usually say this but this is the stupidest post I ever read in this thread.

You really think that all the covid deaths are deaths from covid? Numbers suggest they are deaths with covid. Do you understand the difference?

If you dont understand the difference then all I can tell you is, xD.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

We you not predicting a few weeks ago the Sweden`s annual deaths this year would be below lasts years figure of 88,766


If Sweden`s daily deaths remain at the normal rate of 250 per day that 91.122 would be near enough correct.
If however Sweden`s daily deaths reached the level for those 9 weeks at the height of their first wave, where daily deaths were on average 317, then annual deaths would be 95,615.
Hopefully with the regional authorities for the majority of the population now going with lockdown levels the numbers will be nowhere close to that.

Jaysus Charlie you are so eager to interact with me.. that in bold Charlie, that statement is still on. If you look at deaths over last 8 weeks, trajectory could very well take us there. Will be pretty amazing if it happens huh? My friend.

Real question is, if they end up with 89k deaths same as last year, or 91k deaths same as 2018, 2017, will you be giving Tegnell any recognition for a pretty good covid strategy on how to keep schools, bars, gyms, cinemas, hotels, retail opened every day for 365 days mask free in 2020 and still end up with same deaths as last year or year before?

PS I am very happy you arent disputing statista's figures. I am impressed.

MadYaker

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1103/1175613-coronavirus-global/

Some details on Sweden here and and roundup of europe, over all not good.

Vieira82

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I dont usually say this but this is the stupidest post I ever read in this thread.

You really think that all the covid deaths are deaths from covid? Numbers suggest they are deaths with covid. Do you understand the difference?

If you dont understand the difference then all I can tell you is, xD.

typical of when you're caught in your own stupidity to reflect that on others of course and recourse to cheap insults

How about you show actual proof of what you are saying, something you never do.

Thanks, I'll wait here for your answer

blowitupref

MadYaker wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1103/1175613-coronavirus-global/

Some details on Sweden here and and roundup of europe, over all not good.

Required restrictions in place, their herd immunity strategy binned long ago.

ceadaoin.

Vieira82 wrote: »

you do realize that logic makes no sense at all? xD

If the country has 5k deaths (lets assume it stays this number for arguments sake) by covid and that puts it at its decade average it is still very bad as it means the country WITHOUT covid would havE LESS 5k deaths.

It means that the country had an EXCESS of 5k deaths in a year it would have LESS 5k deaths than the decade average? How on earth is that a success? xD

Does this information even enter your mind? Or all you want is to be right in an extremely twisted and irrational way? xD

No it doesn't. If the country ends up with an average amount of deaths, it suggests that those deaths would have occurred anyway. To have an average amount of deaths would be a very good outcome. The whole point of preventative measures is to keep excess deaths as low as possible, not to prevent them altogether. Otherwise we may as well lockdown every year for flu season or ban driving, drinking and smoking if an average amount of deaths is now unacceptable

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

Total Swedish deaths at 30th October 2020 for 2020 :75,644
On average 250 deaths per day.

If this continues (as it has been continuing since July....) to 31 December, they ll finish on 91,122 deaths.

Look at their deaths in 2018.

Deadly Covid pandemic indeed :rolleyes:

Tegnell - hats off.

Do we know all Swedens deaths to the end of October have been reported? Very efficient