Sweden avoiding lockdown

Wolf359f

tobefrank321 wrote: »

You've posted a variation of this countless times on this thread. And each time its been pointed out to you that the same happened in every country. Something like 860 over 85s died in Ireland. But only 8 over 85s ended up in ICU. And 655 over 75-84s died but only 64 ended up in ICU.

What happened the rest?

Figures here

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casesinireland/epidemiologyofcovid-19inireland/COVID-19_Daily_epidemiology_report_(NPHET)_20201106%20-%20website.pdf

The idea that Sweden treated their elderly differently to other countries doesn't hold up. And they appear to have admitted far more elderly to ICU than Ireland. Based on the very high death rate in Irish nursing homes its us who sacrificed our old to protect hospitals.

There's a difference in approach between Sweden and Ireland regarding elderly people in nursing homes.

Sweden gave patients morphine which I believe it detrimental to patients with respiratory illnesses.
Ireland patients were given oxygen, the exact same treatment they would receive in hospital.

You know very well, for multiple reasons why an elderly patient would not be ventilated. In Ireland, it certainly wasn't for lack of ICU capacity. It was down to end of life care, patient comfort, patient wishes or a DNR etc..

tobefrank321

Wolf359f wrote: »

There's a difference in approach between Sweden and Ireland regarding elderly people in nursing homes.

Sweden gave patients morphine which I believe it detrimental to patients with respiratory illnesses.
Ireland patients were given oxygen, the exact same treatment they would receive in hospital.

You know very well, for multiple reasons why an elderly patient would not be ventilated. In Ireland, it certainly wasn't for lack of ICU capacity. It was down to end of life care, patient comfort, patient wishes or a DNR etc..

You do know that covid 19 leads to a very painful miserable death and that oxygen to an elderly patient is not going to save them if its at a very advanced stage. As I also posted, morphine administration happened in the UK so not exceptional to Sweden.

No-one has provided proof on here that morphine administration was exclusive to Sweden. I await that proof.

As for not ventilating an elderly patient, you are speaking to the converted. Try telling the Swedish critics on here!

As for the claim in Ireland they provide oxygen, there is no evidence of oxygen being applied in this case:

https://www.thesun.ie/news/5894594/family-appeal-inquiry-nursing-home-covid-19-death/

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

You do know that covid 19 leads to a very painful miserable death and that oxygen to an elderly patient is not going to save them if its at a very advanced stage. As I also posted, morphine administration happened in the UK so not exceptional to Sweden.

No-one has provided proof on here that morphine administration was exclusive to Sweden. I await that proof.

As for not ventilating an elderly patient, you are speaking to the converted. Try telling the Swedish critics on here!

As for the claim in Ireland they provide oxygen, there is no evidence of oxygen being applied in this case:

https://www.thesun.ie/news/5894594/family-appeal-inquiry-nursing-home-covid-19-death/

again and again and again with the lies. You should now rename yourself to Doctor Tobealiar....

No it is not hopeless for the elderly, and yes you can save them, it takes more time obviously than a healhly person and AGAIN there's loads of articles on this that you choose to ignore.

Not even going to reply to your other reply because biko did it in a perfect fashion.

It's really sad to see you choose lies and falsehoods instead of admiting you're wrong. But then again when I caught you before you also did not have the guts to admit you are wrong...

Vieira82

the incredible pudding wrote: »

That article clearly does not support what you're saying? Where does it state they were saved by the public authorities? How many of these private institutions (they're private in Sweden and in Ireland too btw) were then taken over by the state and given all the equipment and trained professionals to save all these poor people when they were incredibly strained in the public hospitals?
Also, as an aside, your arguments might be framed a little better if you attack people less.

dude... the article talks about the military intervening in Spain for ex... if you don't want to read that, that is your problem. Governments noticed it was a problem and dealt with it by trying to save lives.

Very different from having the resources and deciding people to be let to die because they're old. That's textbook eugenics and you should not wish that any government does that to any population because welll...

you grow old too... and one day it can be you in that position...

but it's typical of self-centered individuals to not even noticing that... that they too will grow old and be also being killed deliberately...

Also to note the refusal to admit that southern european countries actually tried to save their elderly instead of leaving them to die like Sweden, UK and Ireland...

And actually trying to brush it off as everyone did that when they DID NOT. The state intervened in privately owned "care homes" and some of them will face legal action.

Source? read the effin news that's the source...

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

dude... the article talks about the military intervening in Spain for ex... if you don't want to read that, that is your problem. Governments noticed it was a problem and dealt with it by trying to save lives.

Very different from having the resources and deciding people to be let to die because they're old. That's textbook eugenics and you should not wish that any government does that to any population because welll...

you grow old too... and one day it can be you in that position...

but it's typical of self-centered individuals to not even noticing that... that they too will grow old and be also being killed deliberately...

Also to note the refusal to admit that southern european countries actually tried to save their elderly instead of leaving them to die like Sweden, UK and Ireland...

And actually trying to brush it off as everyone did that when they DID NOT. The state intervened in privately owned "care homes" and some of them will face legal action.

Source? read the effin news that's the source...

Here's your Spanish military intervening in Spain. They went into several nursing homes to find large numbers dead.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/this-whole-corridor-is-dead-europe-s-coronavirus-care-home-disaster-1.4256568

MADRID -- Zoilo Patiño was just one of more than 19,000 elderly people to die of coronavirus in Spain’s nursing homes but he has come to symbolize a system of caring for the country’s most vulnerable that critics say is desperately broken.

When the Alzheimer’s-stricken 84-year-old succumbed in March on the same day 200 others died across Madrid, funeral homes were too overwhelmed to take his body and he was instead left locked in the same room, in the same bed, where he died.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/didnt-give-damn-inside-ravaged-spanish-nursing-home-70920583

And here

Robles said staff in some centers had left the nursing homes after cases of COVID-19 were detected. Residents were abandoned to take care of themselves, even though some were sick and in serious condition.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/03/24/820711855/spanish-military-finds-dead-bodies-and-seniors-completely-abandoned-in-care-home

More than 19,000 dead in Spanish nursing homes and that was only up to May.

Keep your nonsense about how great the Spanish handled this coming, it completely undermines your argument.

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

again and again and again with the lies. You should now rename yourself to Doctor Tobealiar....

No it is not hopeless for the elderly, and yes you can save them, it takes more time obviously than a healhly person and AGAIN there's loads of articles on this that you choose to ignore.

Not even going to reply to your other reply because biko did it in a perfect fashion.

It's really sad to see you choose lies and falsehoods instead of admiting you're wrong. But then again when I caught you before you also did not have the guts to admit you are wrong...

Its actually embarrassing how little you know about end of life care in nursing homes. You seem to think all nursing home residents should be ventilated or sent to ICU when you know well that hardly ever happens.

Read this article and familiarize yourself a little. Its written by a hospice physician.

https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20200330.141866/full/

Here's an exerpt.

I have been a geriatrician and hospice physician for many years, and I’ve been involved in disaster planning. I am alarmed that we are not yet thinking ahead. Specifically, we are not:

determining care preferences for people at high risk of dying from COVID-19, so we know whether they want to endure hospitalization and life on a ventilator if they get a bad case;
getting ready to support peaceful course to death in homes and nursing homes for those who otherwise face suffocation;
preparing for prompt and appropriate care of dead bodies; and
developing the ability to test large numbers for immunity, since they could return to work and caregiving.

COVID-19 in older adults and seriously ill persons mostly kills by respiratory failure, progressing over a few hours or days from a sensation of breathlessness to a losing struggle to breathe. Only a minority of elderly persons who are put on ventilators survive to leave the hospital, and most have become more disabled from being very sick and mostly immobile. Older adults already living with eventually fatal illnesses and their families might make decisions to avoid all this and accept that a serious case of COVID-19 is likely the end of their lives.

tobefrank321

the incredible pudding wrote: »

That article clearly does not support what you're saying? Where does it state they were saved by the public authorities? How many of these private institutions (they're private in Sweden and in Ireland too btw) were then taken over by the state and given all the equipment and trained professionals to save all these poor people when they were incredibly strained in the public hospitals?
Also, as an aside, your arguments might be framed a little better if you attack people less.

He's clueless. Nowhere does it say the Spanish military saved anyone. Disinfecting a nursing home after half the residents died won't make a difference other than as a PR exercise to fool some people.
19,000 dead in Spanish nursing homes up to end of May. Some example there to be followed!

tobefrank321

Here is the recommended end of life care for covid 19 sufferers in care homes in Ireland (from HSE)

https://hse.drsteevenslibrary.ie/Covid19V2/Regularsubcutaneousmed

Persistent pain and/ or breathlessness (for OPIOID NAÏVE patient)
Morphine sulphate 2.5mg SC q4-hourly

Persistent pain and/or breathlessness (for patient already on a regular oral opioid)
Convert the 24-hour oral opioid dose to a q4-hourly SC regime by:

Dividing the total 24-hour oral dose by two to obtain the 24-hour SC dose,
And then by dividing that number by six to obtain the q4-hourly SC dose
E.g. MST 30mg PO BD

= Morphine sulphate 60mg PO over 24 hours

≈ Morphine sulphate 30mg SC over 24 hours

= Morphine sulphate 5mg SC q4-hourly.

Note: sometimes it may be necessary to round the dose of opioid to the nearest easily measurable dose.

So morphine is also recommended and prescribed in Ireland as palliative care for covid 19 sufferers.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Its irrelevant who did better economically for a short period. Its full year that matters and Sweden are projected to do do least twice as good as us.

The emails exposed that they were hoping for herd immunity as a side effect of their strategy. It wasn't their primary aim. If it was they wouldn't have brought in any restrictions.

I don`t know where you are getting that economic projection from but the I.M.F. projection of GDP for Sweden for 2020 is -4.7%. For Ireland it`s -3%.
Sveriges Riksbank, Sweden`s central bank in their July Monetary Policy Report gave two projection on Sweden`s GDP. One without a second wave, one with.
Without a second wave. -4% for 2020. 7% for 2021.
With a second wave. -5% for 2020. 1% for 2021.

The emails exposed no such thing. They expose exactly what the primary strategy was.

The emails from March between Tegnell and Giesecke and between Tegnell and his Finnish counterpart made it clear what the primary aim was.
The latest emails from March between Tegnell and Peet Tull former head of Sweden`s National Board of Health and Welfare Infection Disease Department only add to that.

Tull saw three ways of dealing with the epidemic.
1. Four week total shutdown.
2. Comprehensive contact tracing of all those infected and a 2 weeks quarantine of their close contacts.
3. Let the infection spread, slowly or fast to reach a hypothetical herd immunity.
Tull suggested option 2. Tegnell replied saying they had already decided on option 3.
Annika Linde state epidemiologist 2005-2013 has said she knew the strategy was herd immunity, thinking it could possibly work until she saw the results of the first antibody tests.
To still stick with the line that herd immunity was a side issue of the strategy is complete head in the sand stuff at this point.


As to restrictions. There were none, or at least none that were going to make the least bit of difference. There were "recommendations". They had the power to bring in restrictions under the Coronavirus Act but never used them and now cannot, as they let the Act lapse in June.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

I don`t know where you are getting that economic projection from but the I.M.F. projection of GDP for Sweden for 2020 is -4.7%. For Ireland it`s -3%.
Sveriges Riksbank, Sweden`s central bank in their July Monetary Policy Report gave two projection on Sweden`s GDP. One without a second wave, one with.
Without a second wave. -4% for 2020. 7% for 2021.
With a second wave. -5% for 2020. 1% for 2021.

The emails exposed no such thing. They expose exactly what the primary strategy was.

The emails from March between Tegnell and Giesecke and between Tegnell and his Finnish counterpart made it clear what the primary aim was.
The latest emails from March between Tegnell and Peet Tull former head of Sweden`s National Board of Health and Welfare Infection Disease Department only add to that.

Tull saw three ways of dealing with the epidemic.
1. Four week total shutdown.
2. Comprehensive contact tracing of all those infected and a 2 weeks quarantine of their close contacts.
3. Let the infection spread, slowly or fast to reach a hypothetical herd immunity.
Tull suggested option 2. Tegnell replied saying they had already decided on option 3.
Annika Linde state epidemiologist 2005-2013 has said she knew the strategy was herd immunity, thinking it could possibly work until she saw the results of the first antibody tests.
To still stick with the line that herd immunity was a side issue of the strategy is complete head in the sand stuff at this point.


As to restrictions. There were none, or at least none that were going to make the least bit of difference. There were "recommendations". They had the power to bring in restrictions under the Coronavirus Act but never used them and now cannot, as they let the Act lapse in June.

The British and Dutch governments also decided on herd immunity in March - they changed their minds later. Because someone decides something in March doesn't mean they don't change their mind after. As you said yourself they appear to have changed their minds once they saw the antibody results.
The question is not what the strategy was then, its what it is now.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The British and Dutch governments also decided on herd immunity in March - they changed their minds later. Because someone decides something in March doesn't mean they don't change their mind after. As you said yourself they appear to have changed their minds once they saw the antibody results.
The question is not what the strategy was then, its what it is now.

I did not say they architects of the herd immunity strategy changed their minds once they saw the antibody results. After the first results were published Tegnell was still picking numbers out of the sky on the possibility of it still working.
I said Annike Linde a former state epidemiologist knew the strategy was herd immunity, not that she was involved in deciding the strategy and she said once the first results became known she new, I think her words were "A dream with no basis in reality".

I do not know of anyone who was involved in the decision ever saying they had changed their minds or got it wrong. Giesecke was still going around the world telling everyone how Sweden had got it right as late as August-September.

If their is a strategy now then I cannot see what it is.
The local authorities as soon as they had the power to make decisions for their own regions started doing, so while at the same time Tegnell was giving press statements that everyone was on the same page as the Public Health Authority.
From what I can see the Public Health Authority then made a dash to catch up while still issuing edicts that were contrary to what the regional authorities were asking of those in their regions.


Hopefully the regional restrictions/recommendations will work, but tbh I have serious doubts. The strategy now appears to be so all over the place it`s more a cross your fingers and hope for the best than an actual strategy.

biko

The problem with giving older Covid patients morphine when they have covid is that it may kill them before Covid does.
Respiratory depression is potentially the most serious side effect induced by morphine and is of great concern to physicians.

In at least one known case medical staff were prevented from euthanising one man on morphine.

The oversight organisation Swedish Health and Care Inspectorate, IVO, state that palliative care was deployed too quickly at the beginning of the pandemic and that the assessments were general rather than individual.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/flera-regioner-palliativ-vard-sattes-in-for-snabbt/&prev=search&pto=aue

biko

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/7563343

Swedish Radio News reports that more than a hundred people have filed complaints to the Swedish Health and Care Inspectorate about the treatment of their elderly relatives with Covid-19.

Complaints range from a refusal of hospital care, to people not receiving oxygen or nutrient drips.

The investigation by Swedish Radio News also shows that in more than 25 cases, relatives say they were neither sufficiently informed nor involved in the decisions.

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/7563343

Same as with other countries. You keep trying to imply Sweden is somehow different and you keep failing. You'd want to be living in a cave for the last year to not come across countless reports of complaints in virtually every country by relatives.

19,000 deaths in Spain nursing homes alone up to May. I doubt relatives were happy with treatment. And I already posted some accounts from Ireland and the UK about anger at governments who abandoned their relatives.

And once more, Sweden admitted many times more elderly to ICU than Ireland.

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

The problem with giving older Covid patients morphine when they have covid is that it may kill them before Covid does.
Respiratory depression is potentially the most serious side effect induced by morphine and is of great concern to physicians.

In at least one known case medical staff were prevented from euthanising one man on morphine.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/flera-regioner-palliativ-vard-sattes-in-for-snabbt/&prev=search&pto=aue

Debunked.

Morphine is an opiate, a strong drug used to treat serious pain. Sometimes, morphine is also given to ease the feeling of shortness of breath. Pain medication can make people confused or drowsy. You might have heard that giving morphine leads to a quicker death. Is that true? Most experts think this is unlikely, especially if increasing the dose is done carefully. Successfully reducing pain and/or concerns about breathing can provide needed comfort to someone who is close to dying.

https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/providing-comfort-end-life

Its lucky you don't work in palliative care to be honest. Sounds like you'd be slow to hand out the morphine.

However, as I posted earlier, prescribing morphine is recommended by the HSE for covid 19 end of life care.

Maybe leave the end of life care to qualified doctors in future?

biko

From your own site nih.gov
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4173639/

In current medical practice, the most important group of drugs that depress ventilation are opioids, ... (opiates such as morphine), and ... fenylpiperidines such as fentanyl

It might not happen all the time but it's still a concern.
Of course morphine addicts don't die from asphyxiation. This alone probably isn't enough to kill a fairly healthy person.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Here's your Spanish military intervening in Spain. They went into several nursing homes to find large numbers dead.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/this-whole-corridor-is-dead-europe-s-coronavirus-care-home-disaster-1.4256568



https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/didnt-give-damn-inside-ravaged-spanish-nursing-home-70920583

And here


https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/03/24/820711855/spanish-military-finds-dead-bodies-and-seniors-completely-abandoned-in-care-home

More than 19,000 dead in Spanish nursing homes and that was only up to May.

Keep your nonsense about how great the Spanish handled this coming, it completely undermines your argument.

Nonsense?!? HAAHAHAHA!

gotta love how you choose what information you want to follow and then try to glue pseudo-facts to my words. No one ever said all care home people should be on vents... but of course you and your lies want to create the narrative to suit your needs. Keep going, you have been proven wrong again and again and again.

Lastly the situation in SPain WAS NOT caused by the government like it was in Sweden or herem was discovered to be in that situation and again, information YOU CHOOSE to ignore, the government TOOK ACTION to prevent more deaths in other care homes. And through that EVACUATE Care Homes and desinfect them not doing so AFTER people died.

But facts and actual information? Does that matter to you? NAH! Let's make a false narrative of the Spanish... why not?

I'll let biko continue to actual school you on real information but obviously you're not looking for it. All you want is to talk your ass off on nothing...

You're just looking to lie to prove a point and lie with every single teeth in your mouth of course...

oh would you look at that... FACTS, that I've been stating the whole day...: https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/prosecutor-investigating-handling-of-covid-19-in-seven-catalan-care-homes

So summing things up, there's governments NOT caring about reporting this like SWEDEN, IRELAND, UK

And there's governments that NOTICED the dead in private run Care Homes, not only was it REPORTED openly by the media but those care homes are now under investigation.

But again facts don't matter to you, just babling about end of life care when other users are clearly schooling you about it since YOU YOURSELF know absolutely nothing about it.

So the nonsensical sheep here is actually you.

speckle

Maybe everyone should look to county kerry, first nursing home cases only appearing now in october in listowel . I think its 6 deaths overall in kerry up until recently with two extra now added.

What did they do better? They had thousands of visitors over the summer Irish and from abroad. Even a funfair in dingle this summer.

Full nursing homes like elsewhere and a poorly functioning hospital regarding services and ICU bed availability/circa 5 or 6. No respiratory specialist. That being said they were/are bracing themselves for this round with covid as no immunity from first time in spring. Though we know it was in the southwest by mid february or possibly as early as late january.

Every country needs to take the bits of best practise from each other and or from within and expand, if it is suitable for their country. So take what is best from Sweden and get rid of whats not working here and vise versa.

charlie14

speckle wrote: »

Maybe everyone should look to county kerry, first nursing home cases only appearing now in october in listowel . I think its 6 deaths overall in kerry up until recently with two extra now added.

What did they do better? They had thousands of visitors over the summer Irish and from abroad. Even a funfair in dingle this summer.

Full nursing homes like elsewhere and a poorly functioning hospital regarding services and ICU bed availability/circa 5 or 6. No respiratory specialist. That being said they were/are bracing themselves for this round with covid as no immunity from first time in spring. Though we know it was in the southwest by mid february or possibly as early as late january.

Every country needs to take the bits of best practise from each other and or from within and expand, if it is suitable for their country. So take what is best from Sweden and get rid of whats not working here and vise versa.

What do you see we could take from Sweden that is best practice ?

the incredible pudding

Vieira82 wrote: »

YOU CHOOSE to ignore, the government TOOK ACTION to prevent more deaths in other care homes. And through that EVACUATE Care Homes and desinfect them not doing so AFTER people died.

...

oh would you look at that... FACTS, that I've been stating the whole day...: https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/prosecutor-investigating-handling-of-covid-19-in-seven-catalan-care-homes

From your own FACTS

https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/prosecutor-investigating-handling-of-covid-19-in-seven-catalan-care-homes -

"That decision came after the Spanish armed forces reported finding residents living with dead bodies in some homes. Defense minister Margarita Robles told a TV channel that soldiers had seen elderly people "totally abandoned" and "people dead in their beds."

"Government admits mistakes in handling care homes"

Sure.... keep hanging on to that belief that some countries care and others don't.

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

Nonsense?!? HAAHAHAHA!

gotta love how you choose what information you want to follow and then try to glue pseudo-facts to my words. No one ever said all care home people should be on vents... but of course you and your lies want to create the narrative to suit your needs. Keep going, you have been proven wrong again and again and again.

Lastly the situation in SPain WAS NOT caused by the government like it was in Sweden or herem was discovered to be in that situation and again, information YOU CHOOSE to ignore, the government TOOK ACTION to prevent more deaths in other care homes. And through that EVACUATE Care Homes and desinfect them not doing so AFTER people died.

But facts and actual information? Does that matter to you? NAH! Let's make a false narrative of the Spanish... why not?

I'll let biko continue to actual school you on real information but obviously you're not looking for it. All you want is to talk your ass off on nothing...

You're just looking to lie to prove a point and lie with every single teeth in your mouth of course...

oh would you look at that... FACTS, that I've been stating the whole day...: https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/prosecutor-investigating-handling-of-covid-19-in-seven-catalan-care-homes

So summing things up, there's governments NOT caring about reporting this like SWEDEN, IRELAND, UK

And there's governments that NOTICED the dead in private run Care Homes, not only was it REPORTED openly by the media but those care homes are now under investigation.

But again facts don't matter to you, just babling about end of life care when other users are clearly schooling you about it since YOU YOURSELF know absolutely nothing about it.

So the nonsensical sheep here is actually you.

What facts and information? You're just posting unsubstantiated nonsense at this stage. And like I said you're utterly clueless about end of life care. You didn't even know morphine was common in end of life care in every country.

So after 19,000 deaths in care homes in Spain the government decided to take action. And you call this "caring"?

Laughable if it wasn't so serious.

Ginger n Lemon

I see total deaths in Sweden in 2020 are on course to finish on 91,014, judging by average daily deaths up to 6th of November.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

55 days worth of official statistics left.

That would be less than 2017 and 2018. Optimist in me still thinks that they may just end up with less deaths than even 2019 which was their mild flu year.

Their strategy seems to have been a success in terms of resulting in no excess deaths in the first 10 months of this deadly pandemic year.

oh sorry. its the cases that we worry about nowadays. Oh yeah a lot of cases in Sweden, disaster, terrible strategy. They "let it rip", awful strategy. :pac:

See Mo Salah getting covid? You guessed it, absolutely no symptoms. Terrible. Egyptian covid cases are through the roof :rolleyes:

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I see total deaths in Sweden in 2020 are on course to finish on 91,014, judging by average daily deaths up to 6th of November.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

55 days worth of official statistics left.

That would be less than 2017 and 2018. Optimist in me still thinks that they may just end up with less deaths than even 2019 which was their mild flu year.

Their strategy seems to have been a success in terms of resulting in no excess deaths in the first 10 months of this deadly pandemic year.

oh sorry. its the cases that we worry about nowadays. Oh yeah a lot of cases in Sweden, disaster, terrible strategy. They "let it rip", awful strategy. :pac:

See Mo Salah getting covid? You guessed it, absolutely no symptoms. Terrible. Egyptian covid cases are through the roof :rolleyes:

Not much there other than your usual rambling nonsense. Your maths hasn`t improved since you were last on here either.

The first Covid-19 death in Sweden was in March. That is 8 months ago not 10.

If you are so confident on no excess deaths in a year (12 months in case you are not aware), due to Covid-19, then should the number not be that from March 2020 to March 2021 ?

The rest of your post is just noise attempting to ignore the numbers shouting "look over there"

Bit cynical

charlie14 wrote: »

If you are so confident on no excess deaths in a year (12 months in case you are not aware), due to Covid-19, then should the number not be that from March 2020 to March 2021?

Not a valid argument I'm afraid. Ten months of Covid-19 should be enough to gauge the impact on excess deaths in a given year even if it is not the whole year. If it was only one or two months you might have a point.

coppergrass

speckle wrote: »

Maybe everyone should look to county kerry, first nursing home cases only appearing now in october in listowel . I think its 6 deaths overall in kerry up until recently with two extra now added.

What did they do better? They had thousands of visitors over the summer Irish and from abroad. Even a funfair in dingle this summer.

Full nursing homes like elsewhere and a poorly functioning hospital regarding services and ICU bed availability/circa 5 or 6. No respiratory specialist. That being said they were/are bracing themselves for this round with covid as no immunity from first time in spring. Though we know it was in the southwest by mid february or possibly as early as late january.

Every country needs to take the bits of best practise from each other and or from within and expand, if it is suitable for their country. So take what is best from Sweden and get rid of whats not working here and vise versa.

The CSO has a breakdown of deaths by county in table 1 of this report. It confirms your figure of 6 deaths up to the 4th of Sept. Table 2A shows that Kerry had the least deaths per person in the country. At that point it was a less than 1/7th of the national level and if they've had another two deaths since then that figure would be similar - there's a good chance they're doing something right!

charlie14

Bit cynical wrote: »

Not a valid argument I'm afraid. Ten months of Covid-19 should be enough to gauge the impact on excess deaths in a given year even if it is not the whole year. If it was only one or two months you might have a point.

12 months is generally accepted as a year. So using 12 months would give a much more accurate yearly number on excess deaths due to Covid-19 rather than using 9.5 months when there were deaths plus 2.5 before there were any Covid-19 deaths.

Bit cynical

charlie14 wrote: »

12 months is generally accepted as a year. So using 12 months would give a much more accurate yearly number on excess deaths due to Covid-19 rather than using 9.5 months when there were deaths plus 2.5 before there were any Covid-19 deaths.

However, 10 (or 9.5) months is still a good portion of a year. Therefore if you are arguing that there have been a lot of excess deaths due to Covid-19, this should show up in the figures for 2020 when compared with other years.

You would have a valid argument if Covid had only been around for a very short time in 2020. You could then argue that it was not present long enough to have an impact on the figures for the year. However this is not the case.

greyday

Why do you expect excess deaths this year of all years?
People are less like to get infectious diseases due to all the measures which have been brought in, if anything over the course of a year I would expect elderly people to survive longer than normal due to not contracting Covid, flu etc.

Stormyteacup

charlie14 wrote: »

12 months is generally accepted as a year. So using 12 months would give a much more accurate yearly number on excess deaths due to Covid-19 rather than using 9.5 months when there were deaths plus 2.5 before there were any Covid-19 deaths.

So we wait until March to compare 12 month excess deaths.

Why do I have a feeling that even if death figures for that period are average or below, there will be reasons to account for this - and none of them will be that a certain number of people are expected to die in any 12 month period.

Bit cynical

greyday wrote: »

Why do you expect excess deaths this year of all years?
People are less like to get infectious diseases due to all the measures which have been brought in, if anything over the course of a year I would expect elderly people to survive longer than normal due to not contracting Covid, flu etc.

Well I think the point is that Sweden to date has had very minimal restrictions compared to other countries with critics of Sweden pointing out that there is little point to them, that they are a joke etc. As such if Covid-19 is indeed ripping through the country causing devastation in its wake, then we would expect to see a significant impact on excess deaths in any twelve month period that includes a reasonable portion of the outbreak (e.g. ten months).

If that excess does not appear then we would have to look at the published Covid-19 deaths and ask how many of them genuinely had Covid-19 as the primary cause of deaths. Did they merely die with Covid-19 rather than of Covid-19 or did Covid-19 merely bring forward a death that would have occurred anyway?