Sweden avoiding lockdown

Vieira82

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

What is the explanation for countries who suppressed covid better having higher excess deaths so?

oh really? show me the data that "proves" this I'll love to see it

Vieira82

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

It has been admitted by the government that the deaths with or suspected of having covid will be higher than those who die because of covid.
There's no conspiracy or secret around this, it's just because of covids status as a notifiable disease that everything must be reported, but even though everything is reported not everyone of those deaths gets covid as cause of death on the death cert. This is why the figures Tony reports are not going to be the same as what is reported on death certs.
Read your own link properly and you will see that it doesn't refute what I have posted being the case

Dude... how about yo read the article... it could not be clearer than this:

"“There should be no period of complete recovery from COVID-19 between illness and death. A death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to another disease (e.g. cancer) and should be counted independently of pre-existing conditions that are suspected of triggering a severe course of COVID-19.”"

again, you choose to ignore this that is written clearly! Do I really need to explain this in detail? xD

Literrally, it's been weeks I've been saying this. And still no budge from your side at all... it's like you have the evidence, you have the info, you choose to ignore it...

yosemitesam1

Vieira82 wrote: »

oh really? show me the data that "proves" this I'll love to see it

Sweden Vs most of the rest of the countries on the table of excess deaths you linked would be a very good place to start.
But it looks like you don't actually have an alternative explanation?

Vieira82

PokeHerKing wrote: »

The graphs in that article show that Sweden had nearly 100% less deaths in the months Jan-March before their covid spike. So it looks to have counteracted the spike in April/May.

Couldnt tell you why that is but they're the only country with that kind of deficit for the first 3 months of the year in comparison with their rolling 5 year averages.

exactly, and because people don't understand basic maths and stats sudently Sweden is immune to covid and had no deaths from this. It's an absurd logic where over 5k people dead simply disappear in the minds of people that don't understand maths..

It's like those thousands of people that died in WTC. Since because between 2000 and 2010 there where 9 years without similar terrorist attacks then those people did not die at all on sept 11 2001 according to this "flawless" logic xD

Vieira82

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Sweden Vs most of the rest of the countries on the table of excess deaths you linked would be a very good place to start.
But it looks like you don't actually have an alternative explanation?

duuude... that is not what the data says

you're literally talking about nothing! Come on! show me here, post here data that proves what you're saying, I dare you

nofools

Bit cynical wrote: »

This is the problem. Even if Covid-19 was a completely harmless infection, people are still going to die of various causes and if they happen to have detectable levels of the virus they are going down as a Covid-19 death.

This is why analysis of excess deaths is important.

It is a very blunt instrument, so many factors at play represented in a single number.

mcsean2163

Goldengirl wrote: »

To be honest it is only up for debate on these threads or on social media forums where anti restrictions and conspiracy theorists gather.
Here in Ireland while they say we haven't we have been locked down or restricted since March , except for a brief respite in the Summer so we haven't seen the virus infect a significant number of the population yet .
In spite of this our health service has taken the hit because it was weak to begin with from years of underfunding and mismanagement by successive governments and health authorities.
All very general so far ..but here it is ... I challenge any here who don't believe in how serious an illness Covid is , to come and look after just 3 or 4 people with it for a day in an acute ward or one person in ICU !
Also if that isn't good enough I could direct ye to a hospital in Paris where I have a friend in a cancer ward there , or Belgium where another colleague of mine is working .
Or if you want I have a friend in Wisconsin working in a free clinic caring for patients who are dying in large numbers because the state has a Republican governor who is a Covid denier .
I am not directing this at you personally but am disappointed to say the least to see this stupid debate still going on .

People everywhere are at home minding themselves, bar the few
Other care and treatment IS ongoing .
While numbers being seen are reduced we have seen a lot of efficient practices being adopted which probably would have benefited the health service years ago .
It is possible that deaths from car accidents , and other causes are being avoided.
Swedish people are restricting themselves despite their health advisors , who have been shown to be unbelievably reckless.

I think most sane people will accept this as true without having to " poke the open wounds " themselves .
Let's face it some people on here ad nauseum every day have little to do except question everything .
Frontline workers don't have that luxury .

Agree, when people are working they don't really care that much about covid19. However, for the sizeable portion of the population made unemployed by covid19 it matters a lot.

I've just returned to work having stopped in March. Covid19 is now a nuisance rather than a madness.

charlie14

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Agree, when people are working they don't really care that much about covid19. However, for the sizeable portion of the population made unemployed by covid19 it matters a lot.

I've just returned to work having stopped in March. Covid19 I'd now a nuisance rather than a madness.

I hope you are correct for Sweden`s sake, but the way numbers are going there now it is looking more than just a nuisance.

Goldengirl

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Agree, when people are working they don't really care that much about covid19. However, for the sizeable portion of the population made unemployed by covid19 it matters a lot.

I've just returned to work having stopped in March. Covid19 I'd now a nuisance rather than a madness.

My point exactly ..what is a nuisance or annoyance to some, like you , is in fact / in reality / in the up-front-in-your- face , a serious and life threatening disease to those who are vulnerable and who contract it , and that would be a lot of people by the time it got a chance to infect everyone , more so than any other virus doing the rounds that we have seen in this country .

So when you have worked a day on duty looking after one of these poor unfortunates , then you can come back to me and say it is just a nuisance !

mcsean2163

Goldengirl wrote: »

My point exactly ..what is a nuisance or annoyance to some, like you , is in fact / in reality / in the up-front-in-your- face , a serious and life threatening disease to those who are vulnerable and who contract it , and that would be a lot of people by the time it got a chance to infect everyone , more so than any other virus doing the rounds that we have seen in this country .

So when you have worked a day on duty looking after one of these poor unfortunates , then you can come back to me and say it is just a nuisance !

I won't be doing that, I'm don't work in a hospital.

I'm just telling it as it is. I'm to tired from work to care that much anymore.

Before I looked at our national debt, the average age of death being over 82 and thought it was madness. As far as I'm concerned, China now has a huge advantage on the technology front as Western economies have run themselves into the ground. I hope we recover because there's a real chance things could go badly wrong.

It seemed awful in March but seems not that bad this time around. I know how difficult March to may was for front line staff.

My point is that when people are working they don't have the energy to be that upset by covid19. It's about getting through the day. I fully believe that nphet have no clue what it's like to be an unemployed theatre owner/ restauranteur etc. My heart goes out to those people.

mcsean2163

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I won't be doing that, I'm don't work in a hospital.

I'm just telling it as it is. I'm to tired from work to care that much anymore.

Before I looked at our national debt, the average age of death being over 82 and thought it was madness. As far as I'm concerned, China now has a huge advantage on the technology front as Western economies have run themselves into the ground. I hope we recover because there's a real chance things could go badly wrong.

It seemed awful in March but seems not that bad this time around. I know how difficult March to may was for front line staff.

My point is that when people are working they don't have the energy to be that upset by covid19. It's about getting through the day. I fully believe that nphet have no clue what it's like to be an unemployed theatre owner/ restauranteur etc. My heart goes out to those people.

All great points. The only thing I'd say is that it makes life a lot harder going from work to home - in my case the same place now - with no respite and no social contact outside my family or the odd work zoom call. Its like being in prison. Every day is like evey other day.

mcsean2163

[Deleted User] wrote: »

All great points. The only thing I'd say is that it makes life a lot harder going from work to home - in my case the same place now - with no respite and no social contact outside my family or the odd work zoom call. Its like being in prison. Every day is like evey other day.

It's definitely not as bad now but particularly in the first lockdown, the added bonus of seeing my children suffer from the social distancing, no school and no sport. We live in Dublin 8, not a farm in the country.

I was really desperate for schools to open, not so much for myself but for the kids. It's very different to when I grew up and everyone played outside. Now with two parents working, it's all this organised playdates etc.

Anyway, as I say, back at work but can appreciate how like a prison it can be for anyone working especially young people as there's very little outlets allowed in the restrictions anymore.

I'd the same prison in many jobs but at least there was the weekend and actual holidays. We paid a fortune this year to stay in s house in Leitrim that was beside a road that it seemed the local rally drivers were practising on. I feel your pain!

Vieira82

mcsean2163 wrote: »

It's definitely not as bad now but particularly in the first lockdown, the added bonus of seeing my children suffer from the social distancing, no school and no sport. We live in Dublin 8, not a farm in the country.

I was really desperate for schools to open, not so much for myself but for the kids. It's very different to when I grew up and everyone played outside. Now with two parents working, it's all this organised playdates etc.

Anyway, as I say, back at work but can appreciate how like a prison it can be for anyone working especially young people as there's very little outlets allowed in the restrictions anymore.

I'd the same prison in many jobs but at least there was the weekend and actual holidays. We paid a fortune this year to stay in s house in Leitrim that was beside a road that it seemed the local rally drivers were practising on. I feel your pain!

Not going to say it's an easy year, or that some had it easy and others had it hard... the reality is this is something that affected everyone be it in Ireland anywhere in Europe or the world.

We're all on the same boat in this, we're all passing through the same conditions and despite some people being positive about others will obviously not be because of challenges they may face like seeing your kids suffer in that way...

I think the main thing we should all be thinking about is how to get through with this, because this won't last forever, not even the Black Plague lasted forever (it did come and go for a number of centuries but that's another story all together).

Going around trying to find justifications for things that are beyond our control at the moment won't change the fact we will have to go through with it... disagreeing with whatever political decision was taken about this at the moment ends up only adding more stress to the situation because presently that cannot be changed.

It can be changed when there's another election and people vote. This was literally what the Portuguese President said a few weeks back in the face of people complaining about restrictions. "you voted for the ones in power, so on the next election you can vote them out"

I said this before and I'll say it again, on an western society level, we dealt terribly with this since the beginning, we only started taking it serious when we saw the cases rise in Italy, in Europe... we "waited" idly for almost two months since the WHO alert to do anything and only when it was too late did EU countries decided to all go into lockdown...

Lockdowns, like WHO always said, are the last measure, the last resort to control this and never the first instance... we passed through the first wave and instead of getting ready for winter... at an European level it was just futile attempts as business as usual and now we're back where we where in March...

This should be a tremendous red card for politicians all around Europe and the EU Union, they failed us in every aspect first with social protection to millions of people who are blameless for this pandemic, then on an economic level for forcing countries in a second lockdown without any visible straightforward support.


This idiotic ideology of wanting to go forward for the economy in the short term (Summer) instead of getting ready for the long term social, health and economic consequences meant that while we "saved" Summer, we're now back in lockdown a few weeks before Christmas.

And I am not saying there should have been a complete lockdown over the Summer, but this was the time to actually get ready for a winter in a pandemic situation, instead, we have Martin playing the drums in an horrid photo op about opening the schools without an actual plan about it... we could have literally avoided everything that happened since the cases started rising in September... instead we saw very little being done in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe too...

So in all aspects this mentality has to change, we have to stop thinking only about the short term economic returns but also think about long term economic, social and health returns for everyone...

This all to say that again, we're stuck in this now, but there has to be a reckoning in the next elections and we have to start thinking outside the same dichotomy FF FG that got us in this mess, and same goes for other countries where the main parties, some in power for decades, failed completely the population...

But for now, the best way to go forward is think each day as a step forward and thinking of putting one step in front of the other and keep walking, it sucks, it may feel daunting, fearful and desperate future, but while we're in the middle of the storm we must keep going and focus on the consequences of all of this when we're out of it...

humberklog

Has Sweden lost its marbles?
Traditionally middle class Swedes go skiing after Xmas. In big groups with families/friends/colleagues. Whilst the EU isn't a travel option, Sweden's ski resorts are booked out for the "Sports Holiday" (apparently that's what the break after Xmas is called in Sweden)

If anyone has been skiing you'll know that it's a Petri dish of germs. You're at altitude and doing serious physical exertion. Creating a lot of mucus which gets on snoods, gloves, goggles, sleeves etc. Then you throw off your gear into a pile on the table or floor in the packed pub or restaurant and party on. Later you return to your villa or apartment which you share with a large group. You don't rent double rooms in hotels when skiing.

This (I believe) is why the outbreak in ski resorts early on in the year was so ferocioudly infectious.
The viral load you're exposed to while skiing is way, way more than any other holiday.

I wish I had an anology to explain what Sweden is about to do after Xmas but I'm at a loss. It's simply ****ing stupid.

I'm not against Sweden's approach to the virus. I also don't think it has been successful. But I do wish that they didn't go so far off the reservation that their actions (or.lack of) make it harder and harder to appreciate their approach.

greyday

Tegnell wanted to be a celebrity, he will get his wish.

greyday

It has become obvious that Sweden does not care an iota about the health of people in Europe, we already knew they don't value the lives of their vulnerable.
Radio Sweden reports that 13 of Sweden's 40 mink farms now have coronavirus outbreaks, but the government does not plan to shut down the mink fur industry. In Denmark, a mass cull is under way in mink farms

MJohnston

In Ireland this might not sound like a lockdown, but in Sweden it's a lockdown:
https://twitter.com/maddysavage/status/1328334972080574470

Can we rename this thread please? It's completely inaccurate.

charlie14

greyday wrote: »

It has become obvious that Sweden does not care an iota about the health of people in Europe, we already knew they don't value the lives of their vulnerable.
Radio Sweden reports that 13 of Sweden's 40 mink farms now have coronavirus outbreaks, but the government does not plan to shut down the mink fur industry. In Denmark, a mass cull is under way in mink farms

The whole mink farm attitude in Sweden is the height of stupidity as well as the previous post on Christmas skiing holidays. Especially when they know that for them many of the infections from the first wave were due to people going abroad for Easter ski holidays.


They are all over the place at this point. 1st October they lifted restrictions on visiting care homes and only re-imposed them last Wednesday. Two weeks ago with numbers rising they told the vulnerable it was fine to go back mingling with the rest of the community.
Regional authorities are saying to cut down contacts and the Public Health Authority are saying it`s fine for groups of 8 to meet in restaurants.


The government needs to get a grip on this. There really is no excuse for them not stepping in and taking control anymore regardless of whose toes they are stepping on. Especially now with all the latest positive news on vaccines.

the incredible pudding

I didn't think they'd do it by they've gone and done it!
Finally, some solid communication from them.

the incredible pudding

humberklog wrote: »

Has Sweden lost its marbles?
Traditionally middle class Swedes go skiing after Xmas. In big groups with families/friends/colleagues. Whilst the EU isn't a travel option, Sweden's ski resorts are booked out for the "Sports Holiday" (apparently that's what the break after Xmas is called in Sweden)

It's called "Sportlov" and it's usually between weeks 8-12 in Sweden (so late Feb-March). Different areas have different weeks with Stockholm being quite late last year and the main way it got imported (lot of the early cases were traced to ski resorts in mainland Europe). It's more mid-term than post Christmas and has origins way back in the day to get Kids out exercising to warm themselves up in the coldest months so they wouldn't have to use so much coal to heat them apparently!
Norway and Finland do it too btw (but traditionally on earlier weeks I think)

the incredible pudding

Looks like places like restaurants and anything that's not an 'event' aren't included in this (probably still down to legal reasons and limitations of the public order act) - so it's still just very, very strong guidelines whereby you could go to a restaurant with 7 other people in a room full of other groups as long as they don't have someone playing a piano or accordion in the location at the same time!
So it's mostly still strong words being advocated for folks not to do this or any other activity in public - We'll see if the public will listen.

charlie14

the incredible pudding wrote: »

I didn't think they'd do it by they've gone and done it!
Finally, some solid communication from them.

Good to see they are finally stepping in. They should have done it over a month ago which would have prevented all the mixed messages, but at least its a start on communicating a national strategy.

charlie14

the incredible pudding wrote: »

Looks like places like restaurants and anything that's not an 'event' aren't included in this (probably still down to legal reasons and limitations of the public order act) - so it's still just very, very strong guidelines whereby you could go to a restaurant with 7 other people in a room full of other groups as long as they don't have someone playing a piano or accordion in the location at the same time!
So it's mostly still strong words being advocated for folks not to do this or any other activity in public - We'll see if the public will listen.

Not quite sure what the situation regarding restaurants are on numbers, but it seems the 8 people attending as a group is gone.

greyday

30K infections per week and rising, hopefully the Swedish people think for themselves and ignore their so called experts.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

The restrictions in Sweden were not minimal.
They were communicated as advise but data shows that Swedish people had far less interaction after the advise was issued.
Call it what you want, Sweden had over 30K for last week when we know it takes a couple of weeks to see suppression working, The death rate has climbed steadily the last week.Swedish people have been sold a pup.

Agreed. But they haven't closed non essential retail, restaurants or pubs, although they might as well have, based on all the advice they give.

Its not a compulsory lockdown, its advice and voluntary restrictions on people's movements.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

The whole mink farm attitude in Sweden is the height of stupidity as well as the previous post on Christmas skiing holidays. Especially when they know that for them many of the infections from the first wave were due to people going abroad for Easter ski holidays.


They are all over the place at this point. 1st October they lifted restrictions on visiting care homes and only re-imposed them last Wednesday. Two weeks ago with numbers rising they told the vulnerable it was fine to go back mingling with the rest of the community.
Regional authorities are saying to cut down contacts and the Public Health Authority are saying it`s fine for groups of 8 to meet in restaurants.


The government needs to get a grip on this. There really is no excuse for them not stepping in and taking control anymore regardless of whose toes they are stepping on. Especially now with all the latest positive news on vaccines.

Re the Skiing yes not a good idea.

Re the mink farms, there's no certainty mink strains will impact vaccine development. Faucci said it shouldn't be a problem and he'd know more about this than most.

Where do we draw the line here? If a large number of cats get infected do we slaughter all cats? or Dogs?

You cannot just slaughter entire national herds of animals like the Danes based on a hunch.

tobefrank321

MJohnston wrote: »

In Ireland this might not sound like a lockdown, but in Sweden it's a lockdown:
https://twitter.com/maddysavage/status/1328334972080574470

Can we rename this thread please? It's completely inaccurate.

Except you cannot be fined in Sweden, turned back from a checkpoint, have your business closed down, or have your pub closed down while people party outside the door drinking off license takeaway or be banned from travelling 5 km with a fine if you do.

Bit cynical

MJohnston wrote: »

In Ireland this might not sound like a lockdown, but in Sweden it's a lockdown:
https://twitter.com/maddysavage/status/1328334972080574470

Can we rename this thread please? It's completely inaccurate.

Some in Sweden might call it a lockdown but of course that does not make it a lockdown. By international standards they do not have a lockdown.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Re the Skiing yes not a good idea.

Re the mink farms, there's no certainty mink strains will impact vaccine development. Faucci said it shouldn't be a problem and he'd know more about this than most.

Where do we draw the line here? If a large number of cats get infected do we slaughter all cats? or Dogs?

You cannot just slaughter entire national herds of animals like the Danes based on a hunch.

Large numbers of national herds of cattle have been slaughter in the past due to foot and mouth disease where not all cattle in the herd had the disease.
People have an attachment to cats and dogs due to them being family pets. Mink are not. They are vicious little b**tards and in the wild even here have de-stocked many rivers and destroyed many bird nesting grounds.
I would see the choice between them adding to this pandemic and some well heeled lady having a mink coat a bit of a no-brainer

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

Large numbers of national herds of cattle have been slaughter in the past due to foot and mouth disease where not all cattle in the herd had the disease.
People have an attachment to cats and dogs due to them being family pets. Mink are not. They are vicious little b**tards and in the wild even here have de-stocked many rivers and destroyed many bird nesting grounds.
I would see the choice between them adding to this pandemic and some well heeled lady having a mink coat a bit of a no-brainer

Whether you like mink or not is beside the point. Sounds like you'd wipe out every species you dislike. The minks in mink farms are not destroying the environment.

By the way, most if not all mink farms in Europe are intended for the Asian market, mostly China.

You realise covid 19 is here for years and will continually jump species - mink, bats, cats, monkeys, you name it - eliminating herds or large groups of animals based on hunches is ethically wrong.

No wonder species are dying out.

The Danish carried out a study that's being questioned by other scientists, not least because anti bodies are not the primary means of immunity.

They are in the process of slaughtering 17 million mink based on no firm evidence. Again ethically wrong. Where and when does it stop - if it jumps to other species? which it will.

And the only way to stop covid jumping back and forward from mink is to make mink extinct as covid is too prevalent now and will be for years.