Sweden avoiding lockdown

charlie14

Bit cynical wrote: »

Some in Sweden might call it a lockdown but of course that does not make it a lockdown. By international standards they do not have a lockdown.

One of the first lockdowns was Wuhan. By that standard you could not call ours a lockdown either.
There is no international standard measurement for lockdown. Just different variations.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

One of the first lockdowns was Wuhan. By that standard you could not call ours a lockdown either.
There is no international standard measurement for lockdown. Just different variations.

There very much is. Legally enforceable restrictions, fines and penalties, backed by legislation and laws.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Tegnell wanted to be a celebrity, he will get his wish.

Tony Holohan is a "celebrity". Not sure what point you are making here.

The chief public health official or officials are all household names in every country, eg Faucci in the US.

AlmightyCushion

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There very much is. Legally enforceable restrictions, fines and penalties, backed by legislation and laws.

Was our first lockdown, a lockdown then? Much of it was just advisory and guidelines. I don't think any of it was legally enforceable.

tobefrank321

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Was our first lockdown, a lockdown then? Much of it was just advisory and guidelines. I don't think any of it was legally enforceable.

From memory, a guy in Limerick attempted to open his pub and the gardai were into him within minutes and ordered him to shut down. There were various pieces of legislation used at varying times for other areas. It was patchy at best but there was legislation.

A number of people were caught at checkpoints and fined.

But of course the legislation that would have made the biggest difference was forcing people to quarantine for two weeks after coming here from abroad. That legislation was never enacted.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Whether you like mink or not is beside the point. Sounds like you'd wipe out every species you dislike. The minks in mink farms are not destroying the environment.

By the way, most if not all mink farms in Europe are intended for the Asian market, mostly China.

You realise covid 19 is here for years and will continually jump species - mink, bats, cats, monkeys, you name it - eliminating herds or large groups of animals based on hunches is ethically wrong.

No wonder species are dying out.

The Danish carried out a study that's being questioned by other scientists, not least because anti bodies are not the primary means of immunity.

They are in the process of slaughtering 17 million mink based on no firm evidence. Again ethically wrong. Where and when does it stop - if it jumps to other species? which it will.

It is not indigenous mink that are destroying the environment here. We don`t have any. What we have are Notrh American mink which escaped from mink farms and are creating havoc to the environment



From your post it would appear you also believe the policy on foot and mouth disease is also incorrect

What do you propose the policy there should be ?



Would it be such a great loss if a none indigenous species actually did die out here or anywhere in Europe ?
It`s not as if they add anything other than provide pelts for clothing for those rich enough to buy them, while providing in intensively farmed environments a breeding ground for Covid-19 mutation.
If nothing else mink farming highlights the dangers from the intensive farming of any species

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There very much is. Legally enforceable restrictions, fines and penalties, backed by legislation and laws.

In our first lockdown there was little or none of any of those.
Not much different to Sweden now.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

It is not indigenous mink that are destroying the environment here. We don`t have any. What we have are Notrh American mink which escaped from mink farms and are creating havoc to the environment



From your post it would appear you also believe the policy on foot and mouth disease is also incorrect

What do you propose the policy there should be ?

The jury is out on the mass slaughter the UK did to control foot and mouth and the latest science is only infected animals should be killed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-13299666

In Ireland we killed far fewer animals and there was no mass cull.

Bit cynical

charlie14 wrote: »

One of the first lockdowns was Wuhan. By that standard you could not call ours a lockdown either.
There is no international standard measurement for lockdown. Just different variations.

True and if Ireland with our level 5 shut down is not a lockdown then Sweden's recent recommendations most certainly do not constitute a lockdown.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The jury is out on the mass slaughter the UK did to control foot and mouth and the latest science is only infected animals should be killed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-13299666

In Ireland we killed far fewer animals and there was no mass cull.

Then if they want to keep their mink farms in Sweden do that.
Test them and cull those infected.
Just don`t sit around letting the virus mutate hoping everything will work out alright which is what they are doing now.
Basically what the government and the Public Health Authority have been doing for the past 6 weeks as regards their human population as well.

greyday

charlie14 wrote: »

Then if they want to keep their mink farms in Sweden do that.
Test them and cull those infected.
Just don`t sit around letting the virus mutate hoping everything will work out alright which is what they are doing now.
Basically what the government and the Public Health Authority have been doing for the past 6 weeks as regards their human population as well.

Safety first is not the Swedish mindset at the moment, we can expect that to change over the next number of weeks as the death rate ratchets up a notch or two, I would not be surprised to see Tegnell relieved of his duties soon as politicianswWill need to shift blame when the population understands what has been done to them against all the best advise from practically every other Country.

grogi

greyday wrote: »

Safety first is not the Swedish mindset at the moment, we can expect that to change over the next number of weeks as the death rate ratchets up a notch or two, I would not be surprised to see Tegnell relieved of his duties soon as politicianswWill need to shift blame when the population understands what has been done to them against all the best advise from practically every other Country.

But Sweden is doing the right thing. The virus is staying with us forever, we need to learn to live with it. Thinking that a (magic) vaccine will solve the issue and everything will be back to old days is beyond naive.

Who is really hiding the head in the sand is Irish government right now. They simply need to make a decision not to reopen pubs and restaurants and not allow mass-crowds events. As a society we can afford to keep people employed there for a reasonable amount of time, provided that the rest can keep going.

greyday

grogi wrote: »

But Sweden is doing the right thing. The virus is staying with us forever, we need to learn to live with it. Thinking that a (magic) vaccine will solve the issue and everything will be back to old days is beyond naive.

Who is really hiding the head in the sand is Irish government right now. They simply need to make a decision not to reopen pubs and restaurants and not allow mass-crowds events. As a society we can afford to keep people employed there for a reasonable amount of time, provided that the rest can keep going.

Completely and utterly incorrect, with two vaccines now near approval we will see a dramatic improvement by next winter followed by incremental improvements.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Completely and utterly incorrect, with two vaccines now near approval we will see a dramatic improvement by next winter followed by incremental improvements.

There's going to be lockdowns until at least the vulnerable group is vaccinated, which is about 1.5 million people in Ireland - probably more than 3 million in Sweden.

Once that happens, there is no way Sweden will have anything resembling lockdown or restrictions or whatever you want to call it, whereas I can see us having them, largely due to our small number of ICU beds.

The poster is right in that regard, its not going to be a silver bullet for many countries, not without also increasing ICU. We may still see countries with lockdowns until Autumn next year, unfortunately.

grogi

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The poster is right in that regards, its not going to be a silver bullet for many countries, not without also increasing ICU. We may still see countries with lockdowns until Autumn next year, unfortunately.

Autumn next year is very optimistic.

From approval, which isn't just around the corner, to mass production, distribution and actuall stubbing people is a long way and it will be years before it happens in meaningful numbers.

Next year we can expect to have medical personel vaccinated. I wouldn't count on more...

greyday

We will have enough to vaccinate all our vulnerable before next winter.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

We will have enough to vaccinate all our vulnerable before next winter.

Winter 2021? Yes of course we will, probably by end of spring 2021.

Hopefully there are several vaccines on the go, one for the vulnerable and maybe another for the less vulnerable, who can be vaccinated also in the spring. Ideally anyone who wants to be vaccinated should get it by May or June, in a best case scenario. But realistically it might take longer and there may not be full uptake.

thebaz

I've pulled away from all media /social media on virus for my sanity - even when we got a vaccine NPHT were still preaching doom and gloom -
2 weeks ago people here were expecting a catastrophic number of deaths in Sweeden by now - has this happened ? the number of deaths is around 6,100, I dont believe the huge number of deths expected, has happened.

greyday

People expect a surge in deaths due to a surge of infections, people saw a number of weeks ago that Sweden were negligent regarding the spread of the virus hence the expectation of the surge in deaths which has just started.
There are likely to be over 6200 deaths by Wednesday with further increases most likely.

biko

When other countries have strict lockdown and Sweden is way worse than it's neighbours.

Swedish PM on the question if facemasks should be mandatory on public transport, "it's not illegal to wear a facemask".
https://www.tv4.se/artikel/1q45dT9e7cQlJrRQPv1Jpe/loefven-det-aer-inte-foerbjudet-att-baera-munskydd

Not sure if laugh or cry..

gozunda

New restictions for Sweden ...

"Sweden limits public gatherings to 8 people"

https://www.thejournal.ie/sweden-covid-19-restrictions-5268831-Nov2020/?amp=1&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=upday

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There's going to be lockdowns until at least the vulnerable group is vaccinated, which is about 1.5 million people in Ireland - probably more than 3 million in Sweden.

Once that happens, there is no way Sweden will have anything resembling lockdown or restrictions or whatever you want to call it, whereas I can see us having them, largely due to our small number of ICU beds.

The poster is right in that regard, its not going to be a silver bullet for many countries, not without also increasing ICU. We may still see countries with lockdowns until Autumn next year, unfortunately.

Once the vulnerable are vaccinated here the situation will be no different to Sweden in that there will be less pressure on ICU`s.
The real question is what is Sweden going to do to protect that over probably more than 3 million.


Regardless of whether you look at attempting herd immunity as unethical and immoral or not, it was a strategic gamble that didn`t pay off.
For them to continue with the same strategy with vaccines on the way doing nothing other than tinkering around the edges would not be short of criminal.

`

charlie14

grogi wrote: »

Autumn next year is very optimistic.

From approval, which isn't just around the corner, to mass production, distribution and actuall stubbing people is a long way and it will be years before it happens in meaningful numbers.

Next year we can expect to have medical personel vaccinated. I wouldn't count on more...

A similar argument 8 months ago was that we would not have a vaccine for years.
Approval for two vaccine are just around the corner and hundreds of millions of both have already been manufactured.
I would expect to see medical staff and the vulnerable being vaccinated from early next year and working down the line, everyone else that wishes to be vaccinated before next Winter.

Goldengirl

MJohnston wrote: »

In Ireland this might not sound like a lockdown, but in Sweden it's a lockdown:
https://twitter.com/maddysavage/status/1328334972080574470

Can we rename this thread please? It's completely inaccurate.

Could it be ..Sweden avoiding lockdown , or not?

Vieira82

thebaz wrote: »

I've pulled away from all media /social media on virus for my sanity - even when we got a vaccine NPHT were still preaching doom and gloom -
2 weeks ago people here were expecting a catastrophic number of deaths in Sweeden by now - has this happened ? the number of deaths is around 6,100, I dont believe the huge number of deths expected, has happened.

Went back all the way to August and read every post until today. No one said there would be by now a rise in deaths. What was said and proved right was that Swedish cases would continue to rise and people including me got ridiculed for "not looking right at stats" because they release the numbers every three days...

Well we got proven right, and ofc no one said there would be a surmount amount of deaths yet in Sweden, for that to happen you will need to have hospitals reaching capacity like it's happening again in Spain, Italy and Portugal. But don't worry, if things continue like it's shown in this thread you might get the deaths you're so desperately looking for...

grogi

charlie14 wrote: »

A similar argument 8 months ago was that we would not have a vaccine for years.
Approval for two vaccine are just around the corner and hundreds of millions of both have already been manufactured.

No, they haven't. Firstly they are still in trials and testing, with not even hundreds of people analyzed. The data is not peer reviewed and while there might be some trust towards Pfizer (still big pharma though), I wouldn't trust a single world coming from Russian officials mouth about SputnikV before it is properly scrutinized. On top of that Pfizer's jab requires storage in minus 70 degrees, so the whole distribution channels available now are not suitable at all. Modena's vaccine seems to be more stable, but they are less advanced in testing.

We will be able to do small scale vaccination, on mass trial/volunteer basis (thousands to maybe tens of thousands in Ireland). But nothing beyond that will happen until 2022.

Vieira82

grogi wrote: »

No, they haven't. Firstly they are still in trials and testing, with not even hundreds of people analyzed. The data is not peer reviewed and while there might be some trust towards Pfizer (still big pharma though), I wouldn't trust a single world coming from Russian officials mouth about SputnikV before it is properly scrutinized. On top of that Pfizer's jab requires storage in minus 70 degrees, so the whole distribution channels available now are not suitable at all.

We will be able to do small scale vaccination, on mass trial/volunteer basis (thousands to maybe tens of thousands in Ireland). But nothing beyond that will happen until 2022.

You really need to start getting your information properly...

The two vaccines one by Pfizer and the other by Moderna have been tested in thousands of people and are very promising.. Of course more tests are needed still but is very promising. Pfizer for ex tested the vaccine in over 43k test subjects already: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against

Please before posting, get your information right...

grogi

Vieira82 wrote: »

You really need to start getting your information properly...

The two vaccines one by Pfizer and the other by Moderna have been tested in thousands of people and are very promising.. Of course more tests are needed still but is very promising. Pfizer for ex tested the vaccine in over 43k test subjects already: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against

Please before posting, get your information right...

Up to date Phizer have 94 samples. From the same press release: "Upon the conclusion of those discussions, the evaluable case count reached 94 and the DMC performed its first analysis on all cases. "

They did administer the vaccine to thousands (38,955 as of November 8, 2020), but there are no results of that excersize yet.

-- facapalm

94 cases of COVID-19 among participants...

wakka12

https://twitter.com/droppendrapp/status/1328422739389140999

Sad to see nothing but pure giddy delight from so many on twitter about the resurgence in Sweden

charlie14

grogi wrote: »

No, they haven't. Firstly they are still in trials and testing, with not even hundreds of people analyzed. The data is not peer reviewed and while there might be some trust towards Pfizer (still big pharma though), I wouldn't trust a single world coming from Russian officials mouth about SputnikV before it is properly scrutinized. On top of that Pfizer's jab requires storage in minus 70 degrees, so the whole distribution channels available now are not suitable at all. Modena's vaccine seems to be more stable, but they are less advanced in testing.

We will be able to do small scale vaccination, on mass trial/volunteer basis (thousands to maybe tens of thousands in Ireland). But nothing beyond that will happen until 2022.

The testing stages are over for both Pfizer and Moderna and they are now examining the results before submitting all their data for independent verification (peer review) on safety and efficacy before being granted a licence to distribute. Sputnik V is so far a none runner as it has not, nor does it appear the Russian`s are going to submit their data.


Moderna are at the same stage Pfizer were a week ago.


Pfizer were aware from practically the beginning that their vaccine would require being maintained at minus 70 degrees during transportation and have developed storage and refrigeration pods to do just that. When taken from these pods the vaccine will still be fine for a minimum of five days in normal refrigeration conditions. It`s not the first vaccine that required low temperature transportation.


As I have already said there are hundreds of millions of both vaccines already produced and as these companies have devoted so much effort and resources on developing these vaccines in eight month they are not going to be sitting on their laurels when it comes to manufacture and distribution.