Sweden avoiding lockdown

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

More misrepresenting Frank, why continue when you have been challenged about it repeatedly?
You don't mind comparing to Norway, do you mind comparing with its other neighbours?
Where did I say they were identical? (hint, closest neighbours are not considered identical)
Did you also do a comparison with Denmark and Finland?

Sweden is a major industrial power and open economy was my point.

What's Denmark known for? Lego and the Little Mermaid?

Norway, Denmark and Finland are not in the same league as Sweden

And do your own research in future!

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Sweden is a major industrial power and open economy was my point.

What's Denmark known for? Lego and the Little Mermaid?

Norway, Denmark and Finland are not in the same league as Sweden

And do your own research in future!

Why would I bother, your disparaging remarks about Sweden's closest neighbours says it all really, you are likely to grasp many many straws rather than admit Sweden has allowed multiples of people die from Covid when compared to its closest neighbours, with 20X times the death rate of Norway, your excuses just don't add up.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Sweden is a major industrial power and open economy was my point.

What's Denmark known for? Lego and the Little Mermaid?

Norway, Denmark and Finland are not in the same league as Sweden

And do your own research in future!

You're right, they're not, they're actually better economically and socially. In Nordic countries Sweden is the ugly duck of the lot and loads of Swedes migrate to the other three countries for work... covid just showed that difference even more. So you are right but on an inverted way

greyday

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&ei=uFW1X67cM-a21fAPrYilkAg&q=denmark+gdp&oq=denmark+gdp&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCAAQkQIyBQgAEJECMgYIABAHEB4yAggAMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgIIADICCAAyAggAOgQIABBHOgQIABANOgcIABCxAxBDOgQIABBDOgoIABCxAxCDARBDUNjGA1i96ANg9usDaABwAngAgAFgiAHXB5IBAjE0mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBCMABAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiumI-ay4ztAhVmWxUIHS1ECYIQ4dUDCAw&uact=5


Not in the same league, they are doing just as well if not better than Sweden in terms of GDP when you adjust for population size.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Why would I bother, your disparaging remarks about Sweden's closest neighbours says it all really, you are likely to grasp many many straws rather than admit Sweden has allowed multiples of people die from Covid when compared to its closest neighbours, with 20X times the death rate of Norway, your excuses just don't add up.

You said Sweden was an abysmal failure. Up to this week it had 3 times our deaths while having 3 times our elderly population.

We had 62% of our deaths in care homes, Sweden less than 50%.

Sweden also appears to have sent hundreds of elderly to ICU, we sent 8 patients to ICU who were over 85.

Do you agree Ireland is equally an abysmal failure and the only thing that saved us from being much worse was our comparatively low number of over 65s?

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

You're right, they're not, they're actually better economically and socially. In Nordic countries Sweden is the ugly duck of the lot and loads of Swedes migrate to the other three countries for work... covid just showed that difference even more. So you are right but on an inverted way

Wow. A personal animosity towards Sweden and all things Swedish. Who would have thought! Did you tell your Swedish friends what you think of their country?

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

You said Sweden was an abysmal failure. Up to this week it had 3 times our deaths while having 3 times our elderly population.

We had 62% of our deaths in care homes, Sweden less than 50%.

Sweden also appears to have sent hundreds of elderly to ICU, we sent 8 patients to ICU who were over 85.

Do you agree Ireland is equally an abysmal failure and the only thing that saved us from being much worse was our comparatively low number of over 65s?

No mention of there massive advantage Sweden had with 50% of single occupancy households, didn't expect so
Ireland tried to shield its elderly but failed abysmally, Sweden decided to allow the virus to run its course with minor suggestions on how to limit spread, I much prefer to try and do the right thing and fail than to do the wrong thing and fail.
If Sweden had no care home deaths they would still be at multiples of deaths than their closest neighbours.
Sweden now had consistently over 4k infections per day and death rate is rising constantly, by any measure they have failed when compared to their nearest neighbours and will soon be heading back towards the top of the charts for death rate per million.

Nice to see a post at last that didn't blatantly misrepresent, keep practicing.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Wow. A personal animosity towards Sweden and all things Swedish. Who would have thought! Did you tell your Swedish friends what you think of their country?

ahahaha

gotta love your attempts at being a word magician. Dude... they're the ones that migrated OUT of Sweden... they know very well what their country is about and talking with a few of them they've been a bit ashamed of this whole covid thing recently...

But you that never even spoke with a Swede knows better of course

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

No mention of there massive advantage Sweden had with 50% of single occupancy households, didn't expect so
Ireland tried to shield its elderly but failed abysmally, Sweden decided to allow the virus to run its course with minor suggestions on how to limit spread, I much prefer to try and do the right thing and fail than to do the wrong thing and fail.
If Sweden had no care home deaths they would still be at multiples of deaths than their closest neighbours.
Sweden now had consistently over 4k infections per day and death rate is rising constantly, by any measure they have failed when compared to their nearest neighbours and will soon be heading back towards the top of the charts for death rate per million.

Nice to see a post at last that didn't blatantly misrepresent, keep practicing.

Single occupancy is not the biggest factor. Its actually average household size that matters more. So in Sweden you could have one house with a single occupant, while the neighbouring house might have 10 occupants.

Here's UN figures on average household size.

https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/ageing/household_size_and_composition_around_the_world_2017_data_booklet.pdf

Search for Europe. You will find Sweden is just below average for household size in Europe at 2.2. The average in western europe seems to be 2.3

For Germany the average household size is 2.1

In summary its not much good having a lot of single occupancy houses if you also have a lot of houses with large occupancies to balance it. And that's why average is a better measurement.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Single occupancy is not the biggest factor. Its actually average household size that matters more. So in Sweden you could have one house with a single occupant, while the neighbouring house might have 10 occupants.

Here's UN figures on average household size.

https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/ageing/household_size_and_composition_around_the_world_2017_data_booklet.pdf

Search for Europe. You will find Sweden is just below average for household size in Europe at 2.2. The average in western europe seems to be 2.3

For Germany and Switzerland, the average household size is 2.1

In summary its not much good having a lot of single occupancy houses if you also have a lot of houses with large occupancies to balance it. And that's why average is a better measurement.

Of course Frank, it doesn't suit your narrative, neither does the GDP of its neighbours when adjusted for population.

In 2019, the EU-27 recorded 195.0 million households with on average 2.3 members per household. The largest average household size was recorded in Croatia (2.8 members), while the smallest was observed in Sweden (1.8 members), followed by Denmark, Germany, Finland and Estonia (each with 2.0 members).

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Of course Frank, it doesn't suit your narrative, neither does the GDP of its neighbours when adjusted for population.

In 2019, the EU-27 recorded 195.0 million households with on average 2.3 members per household. The largest average household size was recorded in Croatia (2.8 members), while the smallest was observed in Sweden (1.8 members), followed by Denmark, Germany, Finland and Estonia (each with 2.0 members).

And again I don't believe its makes a huge difference.

You're the one highlighting high infection rates in Sweden as evidence of their failure to contain this.

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

ahahaha

gotta love your attempts at being a word magician. Dude... they're the ones that migrated OUT of Sweden... they know very well what their country is about and talking with a few of them they've been a bit ashamed of this whole covid thing recently...

But you that never even spoke with a Swede knows better of course

Why? They are far from the worst.

Somehow I'm dubious of some of these conversations you're having.

There's a number of Swedes posting on here and or living there or with partners there. They paint a different picture to yours.

Vieira82

tobefrank321 wrote: »

And again I don't believe its makes a huge difference.

You're the one highlighting high infection rates in Sweden as evidence of their failure to contain this.

because high infection rates are proof of success... says the guy just a few posts ago bashing countries with high infection rates... absolutely ridiculous how your arguments have degenerate completely xD

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

And again I don't believe its makes a huge difference.

You're the one highlighting high infection rates in Sweden as evidence of their failure to contain this.

I am asking now as I don't want to misrepresent what you say, do you believe high infections are a barometer of how well/badly a Country is controlling the virus?

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

because high infection rates are proof of success... says the guy just a few posts ago bashing countries with high infection rates... absolutely ridiculous how your arguments have degenerate completely xD

What on earth are you talking about?

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

I am asking now as I don't want to misrepresent what you say, do you believe high infections are a barometer of how well/badly a Country is controlling the virus?

There are a number of "barometers" as well you know.

Deaths
ICU admissions
Cases
Age profiles
Effective Shielding
Treatment of elderly in terms of ICU admissions and nursing homes deaths

For the latter, Ireland has done particularly poorly in comparision to Sweden.

They had 45% deaths in nursing homes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/08/world/a-wave-of-death-in-swedens-nursing-homes-has-exposed-holes-in-a-famously-generous-safety-net.html

We had 56%

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/33/special_committee_on_covid_19_response/reports/2020/2020-07-31_interim-report-on-covid-19-in-nursing-homes_en.pdf

And more tragic news on that today also

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/three-nursing-homes-reported-89-deaths-linked-to-covid-19-hiqa-reports-find-1.4411518

So cases alone are not the only barometer of success.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There are a number of "barometers" as well you know.

Deaths
ICU admissions
Cases
Age profiles
Effective Shielding
Treatment of elderly in terms of ICU admissions and nursing homes deaths

For the latter, Ireland has done particularly poorly in comparision to Sweden.

They had 45% deaths in nursing homes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/08/world/a-wave-of-death-in-swedens-nursing-homes-has-exposed-holes-in-a-famously-generous-safety-net.html

We had 56%

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/33/special_committee_on_covid_19_response/reports/2020/2020-07-31_interim-report-on-covid-19-in-nursing-homes_en.pdf

And more tragic news on that today also

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/three-nursing-homes-reported-89-deaths-linked-to-covid-19-hiqa-reports-find-1.4411518

So cases alone are not the only barometer of success.

I did not say was it the only barometer but you can have your way, (hard to beak that MISREPRESENTING habit for you)Sweden have 10 times more infections per day than we have, they have 5 times more in ICU, their death rate is over 3 times higher than ours and will grow rapidly over next month or so, no need to compare again with their closest neighbours as it paints a shocking picture of the strategy they pursued.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Probably time as a highly effective vaccine is only months from rollout, with trial results better than most could have expected a few months ago.

With the number of new cases and no sign of these new restrictions that were brought in doing anything meaningful, I don`t see there could be much of a case made even if there were no vaccine rollout months away.
Even at 3% deaths to confirmed cases, which is much lower than their first wave ratio, they are looking at over 800 deaths a week.

With vaccines rollout just months away there is no case whatsoever to be made for nothing other than this tinkering around the edges they are doing.
For the sake of their people it is not probably time, it`s past time they swallowed their pride and did it.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

I did not say was it the only barometer but you can have your way, (hard to beak that MISREPRESENTING habit for you)Sweden have 10 times more infections per day than we have, they have 5 times more in ICU, their death rate is over 3 times higher than ours and will grow rapidly over next month or so, no need to compare again with their closest neighbours as it paints a shocking picture of the strategy they pursued.

FFS, I have no interest in misrepresenting anything you say. You asked whether high infections are a barometer and I answered.
You need to look up the meaning of the word misrepresenting and stop using it out of context.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

FFS, I have no interest in misrepresenting anything you say. You asked whether high infections are a barometer and I answered.
You need to look up the meaning of the word misrepresenting and stop using it out of context.

Still think these two countries are "identical"?
Never said they were identical!

Sweden is a major industrial power and open economy was my point.

What's Denmark known for? Lego and the Little Mermaid?

Norway, Denmark and Finland are not in the same league as Sweden

And do your own research in future!



https://www.google.com/search?client...4dUDCAw&uact=5

Same league alright!

There are a number of "barometers" as well you know.

Deaths
ICU admissions
Cases
Age profiles
Effective Shielding
Treatment of elderly in terms of ICU admissions and nursing homes deaths

For the latter, Ireland has done particularly poorly in comparision to Sweden.

They had 45% deaths in nursing homes.

I asked if high infection rates were a barometer, you seem to like tangents rather than sticking to what is asked.

JimmyVik

I think people are taking it personally here now that Swedens strategy (yes, it was a gamble) clearly has not paid off.
Its time to just step back and look at how they are doing without being personally invested. Sometimes we make an argument and out of pride or stubbornness or whatever, cant change our opinions despite overwhelming evidence.

The simple facts are that Sweden went a different way to most of the world and came up with their own plan, rather than being guided by the best international advice available.

Covid hurt the whole world - and continues to, and wont stop hurting anytime soon. Swedens gamble didnt pay off and they have been hurt far worse than they would have been if they had pursued the lockdown strategy that the rest of the world did.

And in my opinion a death that could have been prevented is never ok. I dont care how old the person is.

greyday

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think people are taking it personally here now that Swedens strategy (yes, it was a gamble) clearly has not paid off.
Its time to just step back and look at how they are doing without being personally invested. Sometimes we make an argument and out of pride or stubbornness or whatever, cant change our opinions despite overwhelming evidence.

The simple facts are that Sweden went a different way to most of the world and came up with their own plan, rather than being guided by the best international advice available.

Covid hurt the whole world - and continues to, and wont stop hurting anytime soon. Swedens gamble didnt pay off and they have been hurt far worse than they would have been if they had pursued the lockdown strategy that the rest of the world did.

And in my opinion a death that could have been prevented is never ok. I dont care how old the person is.

The fallback seems to be that lock down's for years were not sustainable, I have never heard of lock down's lasting years until the Sweden fanboys started to use it in defence of Sweden's strategy, throughout this thread it has been stated lock down's only get used in a crisis situation to get infection rates down to a manageable level but the Sweden fanboys like to insinuate that lock down's are for extended time spans (years in franks case) which shows the complete lack of honesty in their arguments.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

The fallback seems to be that lock down's for years were not sustainable, I have never heard of lock down's lasting years until the Sweden fanboys started to use it in defence of Sweden's strategy, throughout this thread it has been stated lock down's only get used in a crisis situation to get infection rates down to a manageable level but the Sweden fanboys like to insinuate that lock down's are for extended time spans (years in franks case) which shows the complete lack of honesty in their arguments.

You're utterly clueless about all this. But carry on.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

You're utterly clueless about all this. But carry on.

You seem like an expert yourself, from misrepresentation to alternative facts you have very few of equal to you.

greyday

2018 Sweden GDP 556.1Billion (Pop 10.2m)
Norway GDP 434.2 Billion (pop 5.3m), Denmark GDP 355.7 Billion (pop 5.8M), Finland GDP 276.7(POP 5.5m)

If you take any two from the 3 above you see they have higher GDP than Sweden, if you take the highest two you see they would be in a different league to Sweden contrary to what you have posted.

In 2019, the EU-27 recorded 195.0 million households with on average 2.3 members per household. The largest average household size was recorded in Croatia (2.8 members), while the smallest was observed in Sweden (1.8 members), followed by Denmark, Germany, Finland and Estonia (each with 2.0 members).

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

You seem like an expert yourself, from misrepresentation to alternative facts you have very few of equal to you.

Here we go with the misrepresenation again. Tiresome.

To give an example of how clueless you are, you said Sweden was an abysmal faillure. I pointed out that Sweden has a similar death rate among its elderly to us and its fortunate we don't have as many elderly as them. I also pointed out deaths in Irish nursing homes represent 62% while in Sweden its 47%. We have sent only 8 over 85s to ICU, they sent hundreds to ICU over the age of 80. A large number of their deaths are in the over 90s age group. Sweden has one of the highest proportion of over 90s in the world. Another poster said Sweden is using morphine on its elderly covid patients for pallative care. I pointed out the same thing is HSE policy for covid patients here.

In summary you said Sweden were an abysmal failure, not to be followed. Turns out death rate among their elderly is similar to our own. Then you said we also failed to protect our elderly.

COVID 19 IS PRIMARILY A FATAL DISEASE OF THE ELDERLY.

You fail to protect the elderly, you fail.

Ireland and Swden have been almost equal failures. As have France, UK, US, Spain, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Brazil, Mexico, Peru, Belgium, Netherlands and many many more.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

2018 Sweden GDP 556.1Billion (Pop 10.2m)
Norway GDP 434.2 Billion (pop 5.3m), Denmark GDP 355.7 Billion (pop 5.8M), Finland GDP 276.7(POP 5.5m)

If you take any two from the 3 above you see they have higher GDP than Sweden, if you take the highest two you see they would be in a different league to Sweden contrary to what you have posted.

In 2019, the EU-27 recorded 195.0 million households with on average 2.3 members per household. The largest average household size was recorded in Croatia (2.8 members), while the smallest was observed in Sweden (1.8 members), followed by Denmark, Germany, Finland and Estonia (each with 2.0 members).

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/

Norway is in the global top 7 exporters of crude oil. The oil and gas sector constitutes around 18% of Norwegian GDP and 62% of Norwegian exports in 2018.Norway is Western Europe's most important source of natural gas.Norwegian gas account for approximately 31% of EU gas imports (in 2018), with almost all Norwegian exports going to EU.

Heavily dependent on oil and gas exports, unlike Sweden, who are heavily dependent on factories that make stuff.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Here we go with the misrepresenation again. Tiresome.

To give an example of how clueless you are, you said Sweden was an abysmal faillure. I pointed out that Sweden has a similar death rate among its elderly to us and its fortunate we don't have as many elderly as them. I also pointed out deaths in Irish nursing homes represent 62% while in Sweden its 47%. We have sent only 8 over 85s to ICU, they sent hundreds to ICU over the age of 80. A large number of their deaths are in the over 90s age group. Sweden has one of the highest proportion of over 90s in the world. Another poster said Sweden is using morphine on its elderly covid patients for pallative care. I pointed out the same thing is HSE policy for covid patients here.

In summary you said Sweden were an abysmal failure, not to be followed. Turns out death rate among their elderly is similar to our own. Then you said we also failed to protect our elderly.

COVID 19 IS PRIMARILY A FATAL DISEASE OF THE ELDERLY.

You fail to protect the elderly, you fail.

Ireland and Swden have been almost equal failures. As have France, UK, US, Spain, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Brazil, Mexico, Peru, Belgium, Netherlands and many many more.

Are you still comparing Sweden to us Frank?
Still avoiding the comparison with its closest neighbours as it shows how badly they have done?
The game is up Frank, it has been for a while, they had lots of advantages over us and have done more than twice as badly on nearly every metric, Currently more than 5X our ICU rate, 10X infection rate, more than 3X death rate with it very likely to hit 4X around Christmas.
Did you find time to do the comparison with its closest neighbours.....I didnt think you would as you seem to find it hard to find them in the google search bar for some reason.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/



Heavily dependent on oil and gas exports, unlike Sweden, who are heavily dependent on factories that make stuff.

You can leave Norway out if you like, I gave you the option of using any 2 from 3.
The price of Oil/Gas has been subdued the last few years so the skew from high prices is not as pronounced as it used to be.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/



Heavily dependent on oil and gas exports, unlike Sweden, who are heavily dependent on factories that make stuff.

Sweden would not be making much at all without the use of Norway's natural resources