Sweden avoiding lockdown

tobefrank321

And through the wonders of google I came across this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2020/03/27/caught-between-herd-immunity-and-national-lockdown-holland-hit-hard-by-covid-19/

In a national address to the Dutch nation on Monday, March 16th, Prime Minister Mark Rutte said his country would aim to develop immunity to the novel coronavirus among its population by allowing large numbers to contract the illness at a controlled pace.

That's 3 countries that disprove your lie Charlie.

greyday

What do you think about climate change Frank

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

What do you think about climate change Frank

Its real. Next question.

greyday

Are you always honest Frank?

tobefrank321

Bulgaria are on track to overtake Sweden in deaths per million this weekend. Romania some time next week and Switzerland next weekend. Excluding micro states and including Iran, that will push Sweden down to 26th in the world.

Wolf359f

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Bulgaria are on track to overtake Sweden in deaths per million this weekend. Romania some time next week and Switzerland next weekend. Excluding micro states and including Iran, that will push Sweden down to 26th in the world.

It's always a strange position for one to take when they try to compare to countries doing worse off. Like it's justification that Sweden are doing better than xyz, so their policies are better than xyz. You have to to take into account, would Sweden be up there with a high number of deaths if they choose a different course of action?

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

This is a lie.

The UK made a huge deal about going down the herd immunity route. They allowed sports events to continue with full crowds.

They obviously decided in mid March to go for herd immunity.

You do realise don`t you that you have just admitted that Sweden`s strategy was herd immunity.
At least the UK recognised the error of their ways and dropped it.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

And through the wonders of google I came across this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2020/03/27/caught-between-herd-immunity-and-national-lockdown-holland-hit-hard-by-covid-19/



That's 3 countries that disprove your lie Charlie.

Holland also copped themselves on and dropped it.

Now Frank, out of the three, which admitted it was their aim and stuck with it when others like yourself were denying it was the aim.
Amazingly in the face of irrefutable evidence a few are still attempting to do so.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

You do realise don`t you that you have just admitted that Sweden`s strategy was herd immunity.
At least the UK recognised the error of their ways and dropped it.

No such thing. I've said a number of countries, mainly Sweden, Uk and Netherlands entertained herd immunity and then abandoned it in favour of restrictions.

Wolf359f

charlie14 wrote: »

You do realise don`t you that you have just admitted that Sweden`s strategy was herd immunity.
At least the UK recognised the error of their ways and dropped it.

tobefrank321 wrote: »

No such thing. I've said a number of countries, mainly Sweden, Uk and Netherlands entertained herd immunity and then abandoned it in favour of restrictions.

Most people entertain you, that doesn't mean they will agree or follow your beliefs.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

No such thing. I've said a number of countries, mainly Sweden, Uk and Netherlands entertained herd immunity and then abandoned it in favour of restrictions.

We knew from the first antibody test results there was no chance of Sweden reaching herd immunity.
.

So what are you saying ?
Are you sticking to the line, in the face of all the evidence, that Sweden`s strategy was not herd immunity.
Or
Are you saying it was and they gave up on the strategy at some point, and if so when.

Wolf359f

charlie14 wrote: »

We knew from the first antibody test results there was no chance of Sweden reaching herd immunity.
.

So what are you saying ?
Are you sticking to the line, in the face of all the evidence, that Sweden`s strategy was not herd immunity.
Or
Are you saying it was and they gave up on the strategy at some point, and if so when.

How many deaths could they have prevented if they followed what was the normal response to a pandemic worldwide?
I know pretty much all countries made mistakes, but tried as quickly to rectify them.

blowitupref

Wolf359f wrote: »

How many deaths could they have prevented if they followed what was the normal response to a pandemic worldwide?
I know pretty much all countries made mistakes, but tried as quickly to rectify them.

Going by neighbours Norway numbers, many thousands.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

In mid march Tegnall said "The role of children in this epidemic is hard to understand, I think. Evidently they are not the motor of the epidemic as with influenza."

He came to the conclusion against a pile of bullsh*t from just about everyone including his predecessor.

As late as May Tony Holohan here was rejecting reopening schools.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/coronavirus-holohan-dismisses-possibility-of-reopening-schools-early-1.4252401

In October he'd changed his tune, rejecting calls to close schools, 7 months after Tegnall came to this conclusion.

Now almost every country leaves primary schools open.

According to Expressen, a Stockholm evening newspaper, 40% of all infections last week were in primary schools.

greyday

charlie14 wrote: »

According to Expressen, a Stockholm evening newspaper, 40% of all infections last week were in primary schools.

That can't be true, Tegnell said children don't spread it and Tegnell along with Frank is always right.

greyday

Sweden has more Covid patients in ICU than we have Covid patients in hospital, some result for a strategy some on here would like us to believe is working.

growleaves

TheRestOfUs wrote: »

He is a war criminal in retrospect.

What rubbish.

Embarrassing military analogies were dropped months ago.

You yourself have said "Mistakes were made" with regards to Tony Holohan and co sending 1000s of infected hospital patients into nursing homes.

growleaves

TheRestOfUs wrote: »

Innocent mistakes in one case and extreme arrogance in the other.

Rubbish.

tobefrank321

TheRestOfUs wrote: »

They will in time, him, trump, bolsanaro and others.

Criminal negligence.

They don't. 23 countries have WORSE deaths per million than Sweden.

You're talking nonsense.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

They don't. 23 countries have WORSE deaths per million than Sweden.

You're talking nonsense.

"Sweden's one of the worst countries in the world for it's coronavirus outcomes, but it's not THE worst. Since it's not THE worst, that somehow makes it average, despite it clearly being far below average. I also won't compare it to it's direct neighbours that are the most similar demographically and geographically, because that would be STUPID"


QUALITY contribution as always.


"Hi, I'm tobefranke321. I erased Norway, Finland and Denmark from the world because I have a weird obsession with Sweden's response to the Coronavirus, and their existence would undermine every single one of my many hundreds of erroneous, false, and misleading posts in this thread on such"





"So normalised for population, Sweden has only had 200% the deaths of Ireland over the last 3 months? That's not so bad! I'm right!"


But hang on, it looks like the rate of deaths plateaued in Ireland weeks ago whereas Sweden is seeing high growth?





"NO, I'M ADDING IRELAND TO THE LIST OF COUNTRIES THAT NO LONGER EXIST BECAUSE THEY INCONVENIENTLY SHOW THAT I'M TALKING ABSOLUTE ****E"


ok m8

https://www.wsj.com/articles/long-a-holdout-from-covid-19-restrictions-sweden-ends-its-pandemic-experiment-11607261658

ArthurDayne

Wolf359f wrote: »

It's always a strange position for one to take when they try to compare to countries doing worse off. Like it's justification that Sweden are doing better than xyz, so their policies are better than xyz. You have to to take into account, would Sweden be up there with a high number of deaths if they choose a different course of action?

Of course they would have less deaths, but this was never the point and yet it has become the lynchpin of an argument which has moved the goalposts from what was being argued in March. This time next year, there will not be a single f**k given by anyone on this site what Ireland’s death statistics for the year are versus anyone else — which is essentially the default position of course. There was no great discussion about it last year, nor shall there be next year.

And yet, if I were to emerge on here next September arguing for a winter lockdown to slow the spread of respiratory or other infectious illness in the cold months, I don’t imagine that there will be many of the lockdown advocates agreeing with me. But why not? Wouldn’t we, as you say, have less deaths and therefore this is a better result?

“Ah no” they will say, “lockdown was a measure commensurate to the risk of such levels of death and illness that the health service would be overrun”. Suddenly, the March lockdown justification will be back in fashion once people realise that this new version of the justification has the logical endpoint of making a hypocrite of oneself next winter.

tobefrank321

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"Sweden's one of the worst countries in the world for it's coronavirus outcomes, but it's not THE worst. Since it's not THE worst, that somehow makes it average, despite it clearly being far below average. I also won't compare it to it's direct neighbours that are the most similar demographically and geographically, because that would be STUPID"


QUALITY contribution as always.


"Hi, I'm tobefranke321. I erased Norway, Finland and Denmark from the world because I have a weird obsession with Sweden's response to the Coronavirus, and their existence would undermine every single one of my many hundreds of erroneous, false, and misleading posts in this thread on such"





"So normalised for population, Sweden has only had 200% the deaths of Ireland over the last 3 months? That's not so bad! I'm right!"


But hang on, it looks like the rate of deaths plateaued in Ireland weeks ago whereas Sweden is seeing high growth?





"NO, I'M ADDING IRELAND TO THE LIST OF COUNTRIES THAT NO LONGER EXIST BECAUSE THEY INCONVENIENTLY SHOW THAT I'M TALKING ABSOLUTE ****E"


ok m8

https://www.wsj.com/articles/long-a-holdout-from-covid-19-restrictions-sweden-ends-its-pandemic-experiment-11607261658

Ah you're back. To hurl more insults combined with shoddy research and putting words in people's mouths. You were probably hoping we'd forget about your shoddy "research" and credibility issues from before? Not to mention posts that make no sense!

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Sweden has more Covid patients in ICU than we have Covid patients in hospital, some result for a strategy some on here would like us to believe is working.

Working better than a large number of countries in Europe currently.

How on earth does it make sense for them to abandon one approach in favour of your approach which is giving such abysmal results in many other countries currently?

Do you want them to follow Slovenia's approach? Who are regularly posting daily death tolls that equate to between 200-300 in Sweden? Looks like the approach you favour isn't working there is it? Or Czechia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. There are 7 other countries in Europe who have a similar population to Sweden. All of them are continually posting more deaths per day than Sweden, usually by a wide margin.

As for the people on here saying "yeh but Sweden are in the same region as..." this is one of the daftest arguments I've seen.

Its like saying Ireland and the UK are in the same region so they should have the same outcome. There are large numbers of countries in the same region that have little in common except their region.

North/South Korea, Canada/US/Mexico, Argentina/Uruguay/Brazil, Turkey/Greece, Spain/Portugal and numerous others.

Its just more of the usual "I know nothing about Scandinavia but I'll offer an opinion anyways" nonsense. Its akin to someone from Sweden saying "Ireland and UK, you guys are the same aren't you?"

Ginger n Lemon

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Working better than a large number of countries in Europe currently.

How on earth does it make sense for them to abandon one approach in favour of your approach which is giving such abysmal results in many other countries currently?

Do you want them to follow Slovenia's approach? Who are regularly posting daily death tolls that equate to between 200-300 in Sweden? Looks like the approach you favour isn't working there is it? Or Czechia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. There are 7 other countries in Europe who have a similar population to Sweden. All of them are continually posting more deaths per day than Sweden, usually by a wide margin.

As for the people on here saying "yeh but Sweden are in the same region as..." this is one of the daftest arguments I've seen.

Its like saying Ireland and the UK are in the same region so they should have the same outcome. There are large numbers of countries in the same region that have little in common except their region.

North/South Korea, Canada/US/Mexico, Argentina/Uruguay/Brazil, Turkey/Greece, Spain/Portugal and numerous others.

Its just more of the usual "I know nothing about Scandinavia but I'll offer an opinion anyways" nonsense. Its akin to someone from Sweden saying "Ireland and UK, you guys are the same aren't you?"

Almost as daft as suggesting Swedish strategy wouldnt work anywhere else because Swedes are "different" to other people.

Now Swedish strategy is being judged by ICU numbers.

At least isnt as daft as "they have high cases, they are snookered" posts.

Last time I checked theyve doubled their ICU this year, something that certain posters dont post about here, ever. Unfortunately.

tobefrank321

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Almost as daft as suggesting Swedish strategy wouldnt work anywhere else because Swedes are "different" to other people.

Now Swedish strategy is being judged by ICU numbers.

At least isnt as daft as "they have high cases, they are snookered" posts.

Last time I checked theyve doubled their ICU this year, something that certain posters dont post about here, ever. Unfortunately.

Very good point. Sweden is currently doing much better in ICU numbers than many of the other similarly sized countries in Europe. Worldometer has them at 249 in ICU and I've no doubt it will rise tomorrow.
Belgium have almost 800, Greece and Czechia nearly 600, Hungary and Austria about 640 and Switzerland almost 500.

Its obvious Sweden are far from the best in Europe, we know that, although its inevitable that deaths and ICU will bounce back in Ireland in a few weeks time. Its also obvious Sweden are far from the worst. They are mid table.

And its also obvious there are a couple posters on here who think Sweden have no restrictions and are working off that belief.

greyday

The pair of ye should enter the daftest person on boards competition, its 50/50 which of ye will win.

We have Countries in Europe that saw Swedens numbers drop during the summer, they wrongfully thought Sweden may have actually got close to herd immunity and followed suit, now they are paying a very heavy price as will Sweden when their death rate soars, Tegnell is already saying he can't understand why they didn't get to herd immunity, The Prime Minister is imploring people not to socialise and their Doctors are highlighting that their Hospitals are close to being at full capacity.
And Yes we should be compared to the UK rather than anywhere else, we have similar cultures and are both Islands, The reason you or the Lemon doesn't want to compare Sweden with its neighbours is because of the utterly shameful death toll in Sweden in comparison to its closest neighbours, grasping at straws seems to be the order of the day with both of ye.
Your argument seems to be that Sweden has done well because Countries that copied them have done less well, well done You

Ginger n Lemon

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Very good point. Sweden is currently doing much better in ICU numbers than many of the other similarly sized countries in Europe. Worldometer has them at 249 in ICU and I've no doubt it will rise tomorrow.
Belgium have almost 800, Greece and Czechia nearly 600, Hungary and Austria about 640 and Switzerland almost 500.

Its obvious Sweden are far from the best in Europe, we know that, although its inevitable that deaths and ICU will bounce back in Ireland in a few weeks time. Its also obvious Sweden are far from the worst. They are mid table.

And its also obvious there are a couple posters on here who think Sweden have no restrictions and are working off that belief.

greyday wrote: »

The pair of ye should enter the daftest person on boards competition, its 50/50 which of ye will win.

We have Countries in Europe that saw Swedens numbers drop during the summer, they wrongfully thought Sweden may have actually got close to herd immunity and followed suit, now they are paying a very heavy price as will Sweden when their death rate soars, Tegnell is already saying he can't understand why they didn't get to herd immunity, The Prime Minister is imploring people not to socialise and their Doctors are highlighting that their Hospitals are close to being at full capacity.
And Yes we should be compared to the UK rather than anywhere else, we have similar cultures and are both Islands, The reason you or the Lemon doesn't want to compare Sweden with its neighbours is because of the utterly shameful death toll in Sweden in comparison to its closest neighbours, grasping at straws seems to be the order of the day with both of ye.
Your argument seems to be that Sweden has done well because Countries that copied them have done less well, well done You

That awkward moment ...

Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Greece and Czech republic have been in 1 of the strictest lockdowns since March, in lockdown for over 4 months this year.

Totally copying Sweden :rolleyes:

That other "we should be compared to UK" is just speechless. Why should we? Did UK close down construction? no. Did UK keep pubs closed for 10 months + ? no. Is Ireland as densely populated as UK? no.

Can you give 1 reason we should be compared to UK other than "we are both Islands"? New Zealand is also an island, should they be compared with us also? :pac:

charlie14

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Of course they would have less deaths, but this was never the point and yet it has become the lynchpin of an argument which has moved the goalposts from what was being argued in March. This time next year, there will not be a single f**k given by anyone on this site what Ireland’s death statistics for the year are versus anyone else — which is essentially the default position of course. There was no great discussion about it last year, nor shall there be next year.

And yet, if I were to emerge on here next September arguing for a winter lockdown to slow the spread of respiratory or other infectious illness in the cold months, I don’t imagine that there will be many of the lockdown advocates agreeing with me. But why not? Wouldn’t we, as you say, have less deaths and therefore this is a better result?

“Ah no” they will say, “lockdown was a measure commensurate to the risk of such levels of death and illness that the health service would be overrun”. Suddenly, the March lockdown justification will be back in fashion once people realise that this new version of the justification has the logical endpoint of making a hypocrite of oneself next winter.

Have you by chance noticed the title of this thread, Sweden avoiding lockdown, or do you just write reams hoping to distract from it ?


Sweden are no longer avoiding lockdown, so obviously they now no longer agree with you and are now among the "lockdown advocates" you are working so hard to disparage.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

Have you by chance noticed the title of this thread, Sweden avoiding lockdown, or do you just write reams hoping to distract from it ?


Sweden are no longer avoiding lockdown, so obviously they now no longer agree with you and are now among the "lockdown advocates" you are working so hard to disparage.

The people who actually live in Sweden and post on here would disagree about them being in lockdown. One of them said that apart from the closure of a few things its pretty much business as usual.

It looks like they just increased some of their existing restrictions.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The people who actually live in Sweden and post on here would disagree about them being in lockdown. One of them said that apart from the closure of a few things its pretty much business as usual.

It looks like they just increased some of their existing restrictions.

Some also said that herd immunity wasn`t the aim.
It didn`t make that true either.