Sweden avoiding lockdown

ArthurDayne

charlie14 wrote: »

Have you by chance noticed the title of this thread, Sweden avoiding lockdown, or do you just write reams hoping to distract from it ?


Sweden are no longer avoiding lockdown, so obviously they now no longer agree with you and are now among the "lockdown advocates" you are working so hard to disparage.

Yes, I have noticed. Have you noticed that Ireland has opened up, despite the inevitable consequence of more infections and more Covid deaths? Does that mean that Ireland has “abandoned” its strategy? I dare say that Ireland opening up for December does not mean that you suddenly deem the lockdown strategy pointless, or that it represents any admission on your part that the severity and length of lockdown which Ireland pursued was unjustified.

Do you agree with that? Yes? Good. Now, why don’t you apply it consistently then to those “reams” that you also write on this page? The page is called Sweden avoiding lockdown because that is precisely what Sweden has tried to do. It has adopted a strategy where it tries to take action which is commensurate to the actual risk — if lockdown becomes commensurate to the risk then lockdown it is. If it is not commensurate, then avoid it. This is in itself not a controversial point — it was a central theme to the fears that motivated the severity of the March shutdown, but has been (if I might be cheeky for a moment) abandoned in favour of an argument that the strategy was only ever aimed at a zero sum game of which country could save more lives from Covid.

Whether you agree with what Sweden deems to be commensurate is of course a matter for you — but you don’t get to set the parameters for what is discussed on this page simply because nuances are pointed out that are inconvenient to the logical and moral consistency of your argument. I do not “disparage” the advocates of lockdown ... I ask of them only consistency.

JJayoo

Sweden what's that all about

Ficheall

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The people who actually live in Sweden and post on here would disagree about them being in lockdown. One of them said that apart from the closure of a few things its pretty much business as usual.

It looks like they just increased some of their existing restrictions.

Like the Irish "lockdown" then?

Ginger n Lemon

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Yes, I have noticed. Have you noticed that Ireland has opened up, despite the inevitable consequence of more infections and more Covid deaths? Does that mean that Ireland has “abandoned” its strategy? I dare say that Ireland opening up for December does not mean that you suddenly deem the lockdown strategy pointless, or that it represents any admission on your part that the severity and length of lockdown which Ireland pursued was unjustified.

Do you agree with that? Yes? Good. Now, why don’t you apply it consistently then to those “reams” that you also write on this page? The page is called Sweden avoiding lockdown because that is precisely what Sweden has tried to do. It has adopted a strategy where it tries to take action which is commensurate to the actual risk — if lockdown becomes commensurate to the risk then lockdown it is. If it is not commensurate, then avoid it. This is in itself not a controversial point — it was a central theme to the fears that motivated the severity of the March shutdown, but has been (if I might be cheeky for a moment) abandoned in favour of an argument that the strategy was only ever aimed at a zero sum game of which country could save more lives from Covid.

Whether you agree with what Sweden deems to be commensurate is of course a matter for you — but you don’t get to set the parameters for what is discussed on this page simply because nuances are pointed out that are inconvenient to the logical and moral consistency of your argument. I do not “disparage” the advocates of lockdown ... I ask of them only consistency.

Yep. Money ran out.

Funny that, we re open things in 1 of the coldest months of the year.

Ireland is now following Swedish strategy of living with covid.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Yep. Money ran out.

Funny that, we re open things in 1 of the coldest months of the year.

Ireland is now following Swedish strategy of living with covid.

Which strategy is that ?
Sweden`s old strategy of never ever having to use lockdown because their strategy was so superior to everyone else, or their latest strategy using lockdown like everyone else ?

Perhaps it`s nothing to do with the massive rise in numbers .
With it being cold in Sweden this time of year as well it`s to protect people from the weather :rolleyes:

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Which strategy is that ?
Sweden`s old strategy of never ever having to use lockdown because their strategy was so superior to everyone else, or their latest strategy using lockdown like everyone else ?

Perhaps it`s nothing to do with the massive rise in numbers .
With it being cold in Sweden this time of year as well it`s to protect people from the weather :rolleyes:

avoiding lockdown.


Read the name of the thread pal

Charlie you must be fuming all these restaurants gastro pubs retail re open in Ireland. Complete disregard for increase covid cases and covid deaths.

greyday

https://www.coronatracker.com/country/sweden/

Oh Look, The WHO website has caught up...,....spoofer Concbui will be happy his go to website data has caught up with the others, unfortunately it will be behind the real number at about 3PM today.

https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se


Looks like that 2.4% more deaths was actually correct

greyday

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

avoiding lockdown.


Read the name of the thread pal

Charlie you must be fuming all these restaurants gastro pubs retail re open in Ireland. Complete disregard for increase covid cases and covid deaths.

Sweden are now copying every other Country but unfortunately are too late and not restrictive enough, Ireland has followed the plan and are seeing the benefit while most of the rest of Europe are not able to contain it at present as they locked down too late, the difference a week or two makes to the spread is crucial in the efforts to suppress the virus as a lot of Europe are now finding out, heeding the lessons of the UK's first late lockdown would have benefitted all those Countries who are now suffering horrendous death tolls.
Reduce infections, change behaviours and its possible to open up with some restrictions, Sweden chose to ask people to be good boys and girls while the virus was spreading wildly within the population, at 6K infections per day they are in serious trouble which their recent lockdown will take a couple of months to rectify.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

avoiding lockdown.


Read the name of the thread pal

Charlie you must be fuming all these restaurants gastro pubs retail re open in Ireland. Complete disregard for increase covid cases and covid deaths.

The title is old news. Sweden is now using lockdown.



Not overly surprised at you hoping to ignore that.

You did the same when it became clear Giesecke and Tegnell had sold you a pup on herd immunity.;)

greyday

https://www.thelocal.se/20201208/readers-reveal-these-are-the-coronavirus-measures-wed-like-to-see-in-sweden

Seems foreigners living in Sweden want far stricter measure introduced into law, they also want the Government to explain how the recommendations are to be interpreted, I guess this happens when the message from Tegnell has been at best confusing when in reality it has been plain stupid especially with regards to masks and forcing children whose parents have covid to go to school until recently.

StefanFal

Just watching SVT now. Lofven and Lena Hallengren holding a press conference since 13:30. "The situation has not improved" so same precautions advised regarding distancing etc. The big one being only 8 allowed at your household over Christmas period.

Interesting what kind of numbers Tegnell will be reporting for the weekend. I'm betting its going to be massive.

greyday

StefanFal wrote: »

Just watching SVT now. Lofven and Lena Hallengren holding a press conference since 13:30. "The situation has not improved" so same precautions advised regarding distancing etc. The big one being only 8 allowed at your household over Christmas period.

Interesting what kind of numbers Tegnell will be reporting for the weekend. I'm betting its going to be massive.

We should be seeing a small drop by now if the restrictions are working.

PHG

As someone who lives in Stockholm the word lockdown seems odd. I look at this page every few days and there seems to be some polarisations, so here is my current experience here. I am not fully up to speed on the schools situation as I have no kids.

- My gf and I were able to go to a restaurant for dinner and to a cafe for lunch on Sat. There are fewer tables and less people queuing but business is still flowing
- In the restaurant and cafe we were asked to wash our hands before sitting down
- As an estimate, maybe 10% of people are wearing masks on public transport and shops
- There only seems to be perspex up in local shops and the odd bar or shop
- We were able to go for a few drinks after dinner on Sat. There was meant to be only table service but the barman was lazy and we could go to the bar, though the place was empty and had to close at 10pm.
- My gf and I are working from home but she still has the option to go to the office if she wants. I can go to my workplace if it is a must but they have asked people to work from home unless they are an essential worker.
- There are restrictions to queue for some shops, but not all. In nike the other week we were handed face masks upon entry but it is the only shop to have done so
- Gyms have always been open excl. a 3 week period back in March/April.
- There is nothing stopping us travelling to neighbouring counties by public transport and never was
- There are restrictions of 8 people to go to places. That said, how often so a group of 8 or more go for dinner or to a cafe
- Sports are not happening
- We know of probably 10+ positive cases close to us (thankfully none have been hospitalised)
- Not many people are using the alcohol when entering the shops
- It is well known her ehtat the oerall numbers are likely quite higher as the testing during the first few months was barely happeining
- My gf had a test about weeks ago due to her office having a number of cases. It arrived in a taxi the next day and received results in 48hours. We have heard that the testing system is struggling atm. Her test was free and done via a website or app.


To us it doesn't feel like a lockdown (whatever that is) just some restrictions where required and to be more vigilant. To say Ireland copied Sweden or vice versa is in my opinion stupid. There are gaping differences in the culture and the current level of restrictions in both countries. Both countries are trying to do what is plausible for each country based on the circumstances (whether right or wrong, who knows).

TonyMaloney

greyday wrote: »

We should be seeing a small drop by now if the restrictions are working.

Compliance with the new restrictions/advice is very poor. No surprise given the messaging has been all over the shop since the start.

For instance, they've had similar advice to our own on public transport for some time now - avoid it unless you really have to use it, basically.
However public transport is still operating at just over half of what it used to be pre-covid.
https://citymapper.com/cmi

and of course there's this:

“Face masks may be needed in some situations. Those situations have not arisen in Sweden yet, according to our dialogue with the (healthcare) regions,” Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s chief epidemiologist, told a news conference on Thursday.

Stats published for Sweden just now;

19,000 cases since last reported on Friday

153 deaths for same

Same stats for Norway;

906 new cases

6 deaths

Guess which country has lighter restrictions?

I'll give you a hint, it's the country that people in this thread argue doesn't exist.

JimmyVik

Deleted User wrote: »

Stats published for Sweden just now;

19,000 cases since last reported on Friday

153 deaths for same

Same stats for Norway;

906 new cases

6 deaths

Guess which country has lighter restrictions?

I'll give you a hint, it's the country that people in this thread argue doesn't exist.

:eek:

greyday

PHG wrote: »

As someone who lives in Stockholm the word lockdown seems odd. I look at this page every few days and there seems to be some polarisations, so here is my current experience here. I am not fully up to speed on the schools situation as I have no kids.

- My gf and I were able to go to a restaurant for dinner and to a cafe for lunch on Sat. There are fewer tables and less people queuing but business is still flowing
- In the restaurant and cafe we were asked to wash our hands before sitting down
- As an estimate, maybe 10% of people are wearing masks on public transport and shops
- There only seems to be perspex up in local shops and the odd bar or shop
- We were able to go for a few drinks after dinner on Sat. There was meant to be only table service but the barman was lazy and we could go to the bar, though the place was empty and had to close at 10pm.
- My gf and I are working from home but she still has the option to go to the office if she wants. I can go to my workplace if it is a must but they have asked people to work from home unless they are an essential worker.
- There are restrictions to queue for some shops, but not all. In nike the other week we were handed face masks upon entry but it is the only shop to have done so
- Gyms have always been open excl. a 3 week period back in March/April.
- There is nothing stopping us travelling to neighbouring counties by public transport and never was
- There are restrictions of 8 people to go to places. That said, how often so a group of 8 or more go for dinner or to a cafe
- Sports are not happening
- We know of probably 10+ positive cases close to us (thankfully none have been hospitalised)
- Not many people are using the alcohol when entering the shops
- It is well known her ehtat the oerall numbers are likely quite higher as the testing during the first few months was barely happeining
- My gf had a test about weeks ago due to her office having a number of cases. It arrived in a taxi the next day and received results in 48hours. We have heard that the testing system is struggling atm. Her test was free and done via a website or app.


To us it doesn't feel like a lockdown (whatever that is) just some restrictions where required and to be more vigilant. To say Ireland copied Sweden or vice versa is in my opinion stupid. There are gaping differences in the culture and the current level of restrictions in both countries. Both countries are trying to do what is plausible for each country based on the circumstances (whether right or wrong, who knows).

This is why infections are out of control and death rate is increasing consistently in Sweden.
Irish restrictions are not much different to Swedens now that we are out of level 5 for Christmas, obviously looser restrictions will lead to a rise of infections in January which may results in another rise in levels of restrictions.
We are down to about 300 infections per day while Sweden is close to 6K infections per day, its not going to be easy for Sweden to reduce this number without better enforcement of restrictions.

Vieira82

Deleted User wrote: »

Stats published for Sweden just now;

19,000 cases since last reported on Friday

153 deaths for same

Same stats for Norway;

906 new cases

6 deaths

Guess which country has lighter restrictions?

I'll give you a hint, it's the country that people in this thread argue doesn't exist.

Yep! Was chatting with a good friend in Norway yesterday, he went back to work this week after a few weeks of lockdown everything is business as usual with the restrictions of course but Oslo taking this very seriously compared with it's neighbour-

Also another friend just linked me this wsj article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/long-a-holdout-from-covid-19-restrictions-sweden-ends-its-pandemic-experiment-11607261658

TonyMaloney

Not much new in this for many, but a good summary all the same

https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1336130193229017090?s=20

TonyMaloney

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Not much new in this for many, but a good summary all the same

https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1336130193229017090?s=20

Sure, but as tobefrank points out, Norway, Denmark and Finland don't actually exist so it's not fair to compare Sweden to mythical countries. We should only compare Sweden with the worst performing countries in the world, to provide a fair and balanced comparison.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure, but as tobefrank points out, Norway, Denmark and Finland don't actually exist so it's not fair to compare Sweden to mythical countries. We should only compare Sweden with the worst performing countries in the world, to provide a fair and balanced comparison.

FFS - when did I say that?

You've now added lying to your list of traits.

For the record I've said numerous times, Sweden is doing worse than Norway and Finland, but doing better than a large number of other countries.

Keep up the lies, it undermines what little credibility you have left.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

This is why infections are out of control and death rate is increasing consistently in Sweden.
Irish restrictions are not much different to Swedens now that we are out of level 5 for Christmas, obviously looser restrictions will lead to a rise of infections in January which may results in another rise in levels of restrictions.
We are down to about 300 infections per day while Sweden is close to 6K infections per day, its not going to be easy for Sweden to reduce this number without better enforcement of restrictions.

Infections have levelled off and deaths are not much different to last weekend.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Now if you want a real example of infections and deaths increasing consistently, have a look at this.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/hungary/

As for your last point, we will be back up over 1000 infections a day within weeks. That's what happens when you open up after locking down, particularly if you are unable to close borders as we aren't or stop people going about their daily business.

JimmyVik

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Infections have levelled off and deaths are not much different to last weekend.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Now if you want a real example of infections and deaths increasing consistently, have a look at this.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/hungary/

As for your last point, we will be back up over 1000 infections a day within weeks. That's what happens when you open up after locking down, particularly if you are unable to close borders as we aren't or stop people going about their daily business.

Oh but, but, but what about ....
and what about ....


Its over man. Stop. Give people a break.

TonyMaloney

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Infections have levelled off and deaths are not much different to last weekend.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Now if you want a real example of infections and deaths increasing consistently, have a look at this.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/hungary/

As for your last point, we will be back up over 1000 infections a day within weeks. That's what happens when you open up after locking down, particularly if you are unable to close borders as we aren't or stop people going about their daily business.

Cases have not levelled off at all, and they had 65 deaths on November 25th - which means they're probably now approaching the number of deaths per day they saw back in April.

You should have a look at what you're posting before you post it, Frank.

tobefrank321

Vieira82 wrote: »

Yep! Was chatting with a good friend in Norway yesterday, he went back to work this week after a few weeks of lockdown everything is business as usual with the restrictions of course but Oslo taking this very seriously compared with it's neighbour-

Also another friend just linked me this wsj article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/long-a-holdout-from-covid-19-restrictions-sweden-ends-its-pandemic-experiment-11607261658

What does your friend work at, that required them to close or work from home?

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Cases have not levelled off at all, and they had 65 deaths on November 25th - which means they're probably now approaching the number of deaths per day they saw back in April.

You should have a look at what you're posting before you post it, Frank.

It seems obvious you didn't look at it.

Ginger n Lemon

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Cases have not levelled off at all, and they had 65 deaths on November 25th - which means they're probably now approaching the number of deaths per day they saw back in April.

You should have a look at what you're posting before you post it, Frank.

Need to add that bold into collection of classics of this thread.

TonyMaloney

tobefrank321 wrote: »

It seems obvious you didn't look at it.

Frank, cases are still rising albeit at a slower rate.

And I'm pretty sure you still haven't got your head around how they report deaths. 65 deaths on the 25th of November, and all we can say for certain is that they've been steadily rising since then.

TonyMaloney

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Need to add that bold into collection of classics of this thread.

You too?

What a coincidence that neither of you can understand what you're seeing when you look at those graphs.

I've seen others fail to educate you so I'm not particularly keen to try

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

You too?

What a coincidence that neither of you can understand what you're seeing when you look at those graphs.

I've seen others fail to educate you so I'm not particularly keen to try

This is the source that worldometers use.

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

The graph at the top is new cases, middle graph is ICU admissions and bottom graph is deaths.

The bottom graph in particular shows a clear peak on November 24th and then a decline.

Cases at the top show a stabilization after a sharp increase from mid October to Mid November.

The ICU graph is showing a daily decline.