Sweden avoiding lockdown

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

https://www.thelocal.se/20201211/sweden-to-send-mass-text-banging-home-christmas-covid-rules

Rules should not be seen as voluntary............

Are there penalties for rule breaks?

TonyMaloney

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I have asked you, quite simply, whether you will advocate a lockdown next winter (regardless of whether there is any epidemic) to save lives from respiratory illness in the colder months? Such a measure across Europe would probably save many many thousands of lives, right?

I'm not advocating for a lockdown right now. Why would I call for an arbitrary lockdown next winter?

As I said in my last post, I think we can learn a lot from this pandemic about how to fight not only future deadly epidemics, but more common respiratory diseases.
There's a range of non-mandatory public health things we can do - that would have had no chance prior to covid - which could have enormous benefit for society. I'd like to see us a bit more Japanesy in that regard.
We can, and should, save many thousands of lives in this way. Lockdown isn't required.

Your big gotcha just doesn't work for most of us.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Are there penalties for rule breaks?

Why would you need penalties for such a compliant nation?

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Why would you need penalties for such a compliant nation?

Got it in one I suppose.

Do you think asking Irish people to not view rules as voluntary would work? It would work for maybe 75% of people.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Got it in one I suppose.

Do you think asking Irish people to not view rules as voluntary would work? It would work for maybe 75% of people.

Thats the point, if only 75% of people follow the rules we end up back with high infection numbers like Sweden, Lockdowns are tough for some people but sometimes tough love is all the works with certain people.

greyday

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/11/who-accused-conspiring-italy-remove-damning-covid-report

Looks like some people could be going to prison in Italy criminal negligence charges are proven, Hopefully other Countries will look
at similar measures to deter experimenting with peoples lives in the future.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/11/who-accused-conspiring-italy-remove-damning-covid-report

Looks like some people could be going to prison in Italy criminal negligence charges are proven, Hopefully other Countries will look
at similar measures to deter experimenting with peoples lives in the future.

Hopefully indeed, including in Ireland. Those who sent covid patients to nursing homes without a test, exposing everyone in the home to covid in particular. I will never understand how they could do this. Almost anyone could get a test back in the spring- eventually they had to cut back testing because of the backlog. But they wouldn't test patients sent to nursing home. Unforgiveable and hopefully they are sued at the very least.

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Frank, I can handle to you being obstinate. I'll get through eventually.

But these constant groundless projections of yours are just bloody lazy.
Do a bit of research before posting this stuff. Please. So I don't have to.

By the way Tony, its blatantly obvious from that graph Hungary and Poland are not testing properly. Their deaths have been in line with Czechia and Switzerland if not worse. Their confirmed cases appears to be hugely understated. No wonder covid is out of control in both countries.

If they did proper testing, all 4 lockdown countries would look like Czechias on the chart.

niallo27

Are we still comparing Sweden to its neighbouring countries, how is it doing against Denmark lately.

niallo27

niallo27 wrote: »

Are we still comparing Sweden to its neighbouring countries, how is it doing against Denmark lately.

What 'neighbouring countries'? As Frank has conclusively proven, Sweden is the only country in Northern Europe. The rest are mythical, wrongly used to justify lockdown/restrictions/mask wearing by fanatics.

TonyMaloney

niallo27 wrote: »

Are we still comparing Sweden to its neighbouring countries, how is it doing against Denmark lately.

It's still doing absolutely terribly compared to Denmark, why?

charlie14

niallo27 wrote: »

Are we still comparing Sweden to its neighbouring countries, how is it doing against Denmark lately.

Sweden 7,380 deaths. 160 reported for yesterday.
Denmark 927 deaths. 9 reported for yesterday.

TonyMaloney

tobefrank321 wrote: »

By the way Tony, its blatantly obvious from that graph Hungary and Poland are not testing properly. Their deaths have been in line with Czechia and Switzerland if not worse. Their confirmed cases appears to be hugely understated. No wonder covid is out of control in both countries.

If they did proper testing, all 4 lockdown countries would look like Czechias on the chart.

Hungary and Poland are run by incompetent and terrible right wing populist governments. Vacuous malign bastards that don't give a crap about anyone.

Btw Poland openly embraced sweden's herd immunity strategy soon after Johan Giesecke visited and lectured the country and the government on their supposed failed lockdown strategy.

As for testing, it wouldn't surprise me if those goons did inadequate testing but I don't know much about it other than what we can see on worldometers.

Sweden of course had very limited testing until recently.

greyday

Average death rate for last 7 days is 64 using incomplete data,

TonyMaloney

Sweden are facing a probable disaster in their hospitals
https://www.thelocal.se/20201211/is-the-second-wave-overloading-swedens-intensive-care-units

That doubling of their ICU capacity was a temporary thing. They dismantled much of it during the summer. Probably because tegnell told them all there'd be no second wave because of their acquired immunity.

Now 8,400 cases on Wednesday. Their current hospitalisations and ICU cases arise from infections picked up weeks ago when they had a fraction of the cases they have now.

It's an utterly dire situation

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

It's still doing absolutely terribly compared to Denmark, why?

Sure it is.

Yesterday Denmark reported 3,132 cases. Its highest ever tally. To put that in context, its over twice Ireland's highest ever with Denmark having a slightly larger population. Its also the equivalent to about 6000 cases in Sweden. Today they reported something similar.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Sure it is.

Yesterday Denmark reported 3,132 cases. Its highest ever tally. To put that in context, its over twice Ireland's highest ever with Denmark having a slightly larger population. Its also the equivalent to about 6000 cases in Sweden. Today they reported something similar.

Were you told that opening up too early is as bad as shutting down too late?
Sweden are on a terrible upward trajectory even with the severe restriction by Swedish standards they have brought in, 447 deaths notified this week.

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Sweden are facing a probable disaster in their hospitals
https://www.thelocal.se/20201211/is-the-second-wave-overloading-swedens-intensive-care-units

That doubling of their ICU capacity was a temporary thing. They dismantled much of it during the summer. Probably because tegnell told them all there'd be no second wave because of their acquired immunity.

Now 8,400 cases on Wednesday. Their current hospitalisations and ICU cases arise from infections picked up weeks ago when they had a fraction of the cases they have now.

It's an utterly dire situation

And the nonsense continues.

Did you read the article?

During the spring peak, Sweden more than doubled its available intensive care places after mounting an impressive operation to increase the number to 1,100.

According to the latest figures from the National Board of Health and Welfare, Sweden on Wednesday December 9th had 673 intensive care beds equipped with a ventilators.

How much spare intensive care capacity is there in Sweden as a whole?

According to the latest figures from the Swedish Board of Health and Welfare, 550 of the intensive care beds equipped with a ventilator were occupied on Wednesday December 9th, of which 261 were filled with patients with Covid-19.

This amounts to 18 percent spare capacity.

So you're "dire situation" is 18% of spare capacity of icu beds filled with covid patients.

And you wonder why its difficult to take the pro hard lockdown group seriously?

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

What 'neighbouring countries'? As Frank has conclusively proven, Sweden is the only country in Northern Europe. The rest are mythical, wrongly used to justify lockdown/restrictions/mask wearing by fanatics.

Reported.

I mention the other Scandinavian countries on a regular basis.

You're adding nothing but lies at this stage.

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Hungary and Poland are run by incompetent and terrible right wing populist governments. Vacuous malign bastards that don't give a crap about anyone.

Btw Poland openly embraced sweden's herd immunity strategy soon after Johan Giesecke visited and lectured the country and the government on their supposed failed lockdown strategy.

As for testing, it wouldn't surprise me if those goons did inadequate testing but I don't know much about it other than what we can see on worldometers.

Sweden of course had very limited testing until recently.

Right - so Poland and Hungary are not testing properly hence their numbers are understated. The volume of cases in the 4 lockdown countries including Switzerland you posted was massively more than Sweden.

Not a very helpful graph to your cause.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Reported.

I mention the other Scandinavian countries on a regular basis.

You're adding nothing but lies at this stage.

Reported.

You ignore Scandinavian countries on a regular basis.

You're never added anything other than lies at any stage.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Reported.

You ignore Scandinavian countries on a regular basis.

You're never added anything other than lies at any stage.

Read the thread then comment. Rather than popping in occasionally with hit and run insults.

I've mentioned the other Scandinavian countries countless times.

I've yet to see you mention countries outside Scandinavia, specifically ones who are doing badly, unless you can show me otherwise. Don't worry you're not alone in that. To use your own flawed logic its as if these countries don't exist.

greyday

Sweden considering sending ICU patients abroad.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Read the thread then comment. Rather than popping in occasionally with hit and run insults.

I've mentioned the other Scandinavian countries countless times.

I've yet to see you mention countries outside Scandinavia, specifically ones who are doing badly, unless you can show me otherwise. Don't worry you're not alone in that. To use your own flawed logic its as if these countries don't exist.

Frank, you've repeatedly accused me of lying. You've repeatedly said I have no credibility. Could you please point out a single lie I've made, or a specific statement I've made that discredits me?

Look at your rigorous and intellectual rebuttals e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115354468&postcount=6658 or https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115541261&postcount=7075



Mocking you deliberately ignoring the existence of Sweden's neighbours for months isn't against any forum rule - it's also richly deserved. Regardless, I've also included more actual evidence, stats and links to credible sources in a handful of posts than you have in your 3-500 or so. I'd advise you to mull that over for a while, but I know you'll just reply with "you LIAR you have NO credibility" or something along those lines, as per usual.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Sweden considering sending ICU patients abroad.

You've a habit of making statements of fact without bothering with links or sources.

Nevermind, I found it.

https://www.thelocal.se/20201211/is-the-second-wave-overloading-swedens-intensive-care-units

"If we reach a situation where we cannot handle this ourselves, we will definitely ask our brother and sister countries for assistance," he said. "It's really hard to know when that's going to occur, or if it's going to occur at all."

He pointed out that Uppsala Region, where he works, already sometimes sends serious burn patients to be treated in Bergen and neonatal patients to Turku in Finland, and noted that Sweden's neighbours had all offered to treat coronavirus patients earlier in the year.

"During the peak of our problems in the spring, we got offers from our neighbours, saying that they were willing to help us if we ended up in a situation where we couldn't make sure all the patients are safe."

Johanna Sandwall, the board's operations chief, told The Local that there were currently no plans to seek help from neighbouring countries.

"There are no such plans right now," she said. "Right now we have sufficient capacity nationally to meet our care needs."

In summary there are no plans currently to send patients abroad.

You also appear to have credibility issues based on posts recently.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

You've a habit of making statements of fact without bothering with links or sources.

Careful now, or the level of irony in your post could be so high it potentially ends the universe.

TonyMaloney

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Sure it is.

Yesterday Denmark reported 3,132 cases. Its highest ever tally. To put that in context, its over twice Ireland's highest ever with Denmark having a slightly larger population. Its also the equivalent to about 6000 cases in Sweden. Today they reported something similar.

Today Sweden announced 7,370 new cases, 160 deaths, and that it may have to rely on neighbouring countries like Denmark to help meet their ICU needs.

Denmark went into something akin to our level 5 yesterday. The timing of it is quite horrible for the Danes. They're not due to come out of it until Jan 3rd.
And with the cases shooting up you'd imagine there'll be a significant number of deaths accordingly.

I haven't read much on their recent situation but at a guess I'd say they moved too late.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Frank, you've repeatedly accused me of lying. You've repeatedly said I have no credibility. Could you please point out a single lie I've made, or a specific statement I've made that discredits me?

Look at your rigorous and intellectual rebuttals e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115354468&postcount=6658 or https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115541261&postcount=7075



Mocking you deliberately ignoring the existence of Sweden's neighbours for months isn't against any forum rule - it's also richly deserved. Regardless, I've also included more actual evidence, stats and links to credible sources in a handful of posts than you have in your 3-500 or so. I'd advise you to mull that over for a while, but I know you'll just reply with "you LIAR you have NO credibility" or something along those lines, as per usual.

I was responding to insults from you.

You're clearly trying to derail this thread with lies and insults. It was going ok until you started getting involved.

You've said repeatedly I don't mention Scandinavian countries. This is a lie.

TonyMaloney

tobefrank321 wrote: »

And the nonsense continues.

Did you read the article?



So you're "dire situation" is 18% of spare capacity of icu beds filled with covid patients.

And you wonder why its difficult to take the pro hard lockdown group seriously?

What?

Frank, no. You're reading that all wrong.

Sweden currently have 18% ICU capacity remaining overall. During the first wave they never went bellow 30%.

They still have rapidly rising cases. No sign of a peak yet. So that means rising ICU, regular hospitalisations and deaths for weeks to come at least.
And if they breach capacity everything gets significantly worse.

It's a ****ing awful state of affairs

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

What?

Frank, no. You're reading that all wrong.

Sweden currently have 18% ICU capacity remaining overall. During the first wave they never went bellow 30%.

They still have rapidly rising cases. No sign of a peak yet. So that means rising ICU, regular hospitalisations and deaths for weeks to come at least.
And if they breach capacity everything gets significantly worse.

It's a ****ing awful state of affairs

They have 1100 beds if required.
They have 252 in icu.
What proportion of 1100 is 252?
They have 550 beds filled of which 252 are covid patients.

Less than a quarter of their entire icu beds are filled with covid patients.

Tony, you damage your credibility with posts like this.