Sweden avoiding lockdown

tobefrank321

Anyone else think the hard lockdown brigade have lost all credibility with recent posts?

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

I was responding to insults from you.

You're clearly trying to derail this thread with lies and insults. It was going ok until you started getting involved.

You've said repeatedly I don't mention Scandinavian countries. This is a lie.

Everyone in this thread knows you don't mention Scandinavian countries. There's a reason you e.g. recently compared Sweden to Poland & Hungary but have not even once substantively compared it to Finland, Norway or Denmark. Hyperbole and exaggeration are rhetorical devices, not lies - but I'm aware that that distinction is probably at too high a level for you.

I asked you to show where I've lied, and what statements i've made that have discredited me, seeing as how you've repeatedly accused me of both. Please do so, rather than shouting loudly to hide a lack of an actual argument.

I can easily show where you've lied e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115552606&postcount=7125 where both I and another user responded to show that the stats aren't up to date - but you didn't acknowledge your error - or where you've been discredited e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115352115&postcount=6656

See, it isn't that hard. It's called backing up what you post, you could try it some time. Instead you're yet again waffling about 'credibility', as if you'd even recognise it if you came across it.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

They have 1100 beds if required.
They have 252 in icu.
What proportion of 1100 is 252?
They have 550 beds filled of which 252 are covid patients.

Less than a quarter of their entire icu beds are filled with covid patients.

Tony, you damage your credibility with posts like this.

261 in ICU Frank, be factual please.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

261 in ICU Frank, be factual please.

261 out of 1100 ICU beds.

I replied to your earlier post about plans to send patients abroad. Turns out it was untrue.

Johanna Sandwall, the board's operations chief, told The Local that there were currently no plans to seek help from neighbouring countries.

TonyMaloney

tobefrank321 wrote: »

They have 1100 beds if required.
They have 252 in icu.
What proportion of 1100 is 252?
They have 550 beds filled of which 252 are covid patients.

Less than a quarter of their entire icu beds are filled with covid patients.

Tony, you damage your credibility with posts like this.

Frank, I don't know what to say to you.

This is just weird. Have a read of the news, then get back to me.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone in this thread knows you don't mention Scandinavian countries. There's a reason you e.g. recently compared Sweden to Poland & Hungary but have not even once substantively compared it to Finland, Norway or Denmark. Hyperbole and exaggeration are rhetorical devices, not lies - but I'm aware that that distinction is probably at too high a level for you.

What do you call this then?

tobefrank321 wrote: »

So much for the rest of Scandinavia doing well.

Today Norway reported 21 deaths, their highest ever daily total.

Denmark reported 3132 cases, their highest ever daily cases and 14 deaths.

Finland reported 840 cases, their highest ever number of daily cases and 9 deaths.

Not even sure why I'm feeding you at this stage.

greyday

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone in this thread knows you don't mention Scandinavian countries. There's a reason you e.g. recently compared Sweden to Poland & Hungary but have not even once substantively compared it to Finland, Norway or Denmark. Hyperbole and exaggeration are rhetorical devices, not lies - but I'm aware that that distinction is probably at too high a level for you.

I asked you to show where I've lied, and what statements i've made that have discredited me, seeing as how you've repeatedly accused me of both. Please do so, rather than shouting loudly to hide a lack of an actual argument.

I can easily show where you've lied e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115552606&postcount=7125 where both I and another user responded to show that the stats aren't up to date - but you didn't acknowledge your error - or where you've been discredited e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115352115&postcount=6656

See, it isn't that hard. It's called backing up what you post, you could try it some time. Instead you're yet again waffling about 'credibility', as if you'd even recognise it if you came across it.

Frank jumped the shark a long time ago and is feeling insulted now that he is the last one to realise it.
He was happy to compare Sweden to Ireland until recently, once Ireland became best in class it didn't serve his viewpoint.
He then refuted Swedens absolute failure against its neighbours with shockingly bad excuses.
Now he has moved on to Countries that closed too late or opened too early and warns us that Ireland is on a terrible road with low infections and deaths as reopening from the low base which is part of the roadmap will apparently see infections and death rates skyrocket ignoring the models which say we will be between 1200-1400 infections per day by second week of January, not great numbers but we have handled those numbers admirably over the last two months, at the same time he says Sweden with nearly 8k infections today look sustainable to him, credibility is lacking in Franks arguments for a long long time IMO.

TonyMaloney

Frank, how would you like an extended stay in one of these in mid-winter Sweden?

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Frank, I don't know what to say to you.

This is just weird. Have a read of the news, then get back to me.

I think we can both agree you shot yourself in the foot with your recent posts - first the graph that showed 4 lockdown countries with massive case numbers and then saying Swedens ICU is almost at full capacity when its not.

If you want a dire ICU situation, Germany is a good example with 4340 in ICU.

8 times the population of Sweden, 17 times the number of ICU patients.

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Frank, how would you like an extended stay in one of these in mid-winter Sweden?

Resorting to pictures now after losing the argument? Do you want me to post similar pictures from hard lockdown countries?

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

261 out of 1100 ICU beds.

I replied to your earlier post about plans to send patients abroad. Turns out it was untrue.

673 beds at the moment, please be factual Frank, your have some terrible habits of cherry picking what suits your failed analysis of Swedens strategy.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Frank jumped the shark a long time ago and is feeling insulted now that he is the last one to realise it.
He was happy to compare Sweden to Ireland until recently, once Ireland became best in class it didn't serve his viewpoint.
He then refuted Swedens absolute failure against its neighbours with shockingly bad excuses.
Now he has moved on to Countries that closed too late or opened too early and warns us that Ireland is on a terrible road with low infections and deaths as reopening from the low base which is part of the roadmap will apparently see infections and death rates skyrocket ignoring the models which say we will be between 1200-1400 infections per day by second week of January, not great numbers but we have handled those numbers admirably over the last two months, at the same time he says Sweden with nearly 8k infections today look sustainable to him, credibility is lacking in Franks arguments for a long long time IMO.

Ireland had 15 deaths yesterday. Finland was also best in class. It had 840 cases yesterday, a new high.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

673 beds at the moment, please be factual Frank, your have some terrible habits of cherry picking what suits your failed analysis of Swedens strategy.

That's before surge capacity which can boost it to 1100.

Do you agree they are well below covid ICU admissions from where they were in the spring?

Failed analysis? I'm not the one who consistently posts unsourced outlandish statements that turn out to be untrue - that's you

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

261 out of 1100 ICU beds.

I replied to your earlier post about plans to send patients abroad. Turns out it was untrue.

Might patients be sent to Finland, Denmark or Norway?

Sweden's medical newspaper Dagens Medicin on Thursday quoted Sten Rubertsson, a doctor at the health board, saying that a new plan to increase the number of available intensive care beds was likely to be announced within days, and might even involve patients being sent to be treated in Norway, Denmark and Finland.

TonyMaloney

tobefrank321 wrote: »

I think we can both agree you shot yourself in the foot with your recent posts - first the graph that showed 4 lockdown countries with massive case numbers and then saying Swedens ICU is almost at full capacity when its not.

If you want a dire ICU situation, Germany is a good example with 4340 in ICU.

8 times the population of Sweden, 17 times the number of ICU patients.

Frank. Sten Rubertsson, chief physician at the National Board of Health and Welfare has today stated that Sweden will soon have to ask for help from neighbouring countries to cope with their ICU burden.

Do you think he's just completely and utterly nuts or something? Do you think he's simply unaware of their own capacity.

Cop the **** on to yourself

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

That's before surge capacity which can boost it to 1100.

Do you agree they are well below where they were in terms of ICU from the spring?

Frank Frank Frank, You have lost all credibility at this stage, number of ICU beds quoted from different time of year, out of date number of people in ICU and now you want to deflect.....its tiresome at this stage.
They are also now closing schools in Stockholm for 14 to 16 year olds.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Might patients be sent to Finland, Denmark or Norway?

Sweden's medical newspaper Dagens Medicin on Thursday quoted Sten Rubertsson, a doctor at the health board, saying that a new plan to increase the number of available intensive care beds was likely to be announced within days, and might even involve patients being sent to be treated in Norway, Denmark and Finland.

Might...important word.

His boss who will have the final say said there was NO Plans to send patients abroad.

Discredited again greyday.

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Frank. Sten Rubertsson, chief physician at the National Board of Health and Welfare has today stated that Sweden will soon have to ask for help from neighbouring countries to cope with their ICU burden.

Do you think he's just completely and utterly nuts or something? Do you think he's simply unaware of their own capacity.

Cop the **** on to yourself

No he didn't Tony. You're 3rd discredited assertion today.

He said they might have to send patients abroad. His boss said they had no plans to do that.

Tony, I feel you're also heading for wind up territory. Every one of your posts have been easily discredited.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

Frank Frank Frank, You have lost all credibility at this stage, number of ICU beds quoted from different time of year, out of date number of people in ICU and now you want to deflect.....its tiresome at this stage.
They are also now closing schools in Stockholm for 14 to 16 year olds.

And another statement without a link. When you continually make big statements without links it also feels you're on a wind up.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

That's before surge capacity which can boost it to 1100.

Do you agree they are well below covid ICU admissions from where they were in the spring?

Failed analysis? I'm not the one who consistently posts unsourced outlandish statements that turn out to be untrue - that's you

You lost Frank, with comrades like Lemon on your side you could never win, the sources you have provided have in most parts disproved practically all your conclusions while you disappear when challenged, remember the GDP one, we had such a laugh when we added any two of its closest neighbours together to show it surpassed Swedens with very little population difference, oh how we laughed Frank.

greyday

tobefrank321 wrote: »

No he didn't Tony. You're 3rd discredited assertion today.

He said they might have to send patients abroad. His boss said they had no plans to do that.

Tony, I feel you're also heading for wind up territory. Every one of your posts have been easily discredited.

You utter fool, they have obviously considered it for when it gets worse over coming weeks, they have an agreement from earlier in the year.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

You lost Frank, with comrades like Lemon on your side you could never win, the sources you have provided have in most parts disproved practically all your conclusions while you disappear when challenged, remember the GDP one, we had such a laugh when we added any two of its closest neighbours together to show it surpassed Swedens with very little population difference, oh how we laughed Frank.

OK - you're obviously a wind up merchant. Not sure why I didn't see it earlier.

Welcome to ignore.

tobefrank321

greyday wrote: »

You utter fool, they have obviously considered it for when it gets worse over coming weeks, they have an agreement from earlier in the year.

But before I put you on ignore I'll take the time to report this nugget.

as for the rest, just more of your usual unsourced rubbish.

greyday

Thanks Frank, as I said earlier, reading your constant BS was getting tiresome, if you put everyone on ignore then yourself, Fintan, Lemon and Cnocbui can convince yourselves ye were right when all the evidence says ye lost 250-nil, are you related to a certain leader in North Korea by any chance?

sydthebeat

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/11/sweden-may-have-send-coronavirus-patients-finland-infections/

Sweden may have to send coronavirus patients to Finland as infections spiral

The warning from a senior doctor comes as ICU beds in Stockholm reach 99 per cent capacity


Sweden may be forced to seek emergency help from Finland, Norway, or Denmark, as its hospitals struggle to cope with the number of coronavirus patients, a senior doctor has warned.

Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare earlier this week contacted health authorities in other Nordic countries to start discussions over how they could best relieve Sweden of some of its load under the Nordic Public Health Preparedness agreement.

"A couple of days ago they initiated the first contacts with the other Nordic countries so that they are aware that this is still a valid agreement if the need arises," Dr Göran Karlström, who is responsible for coordinating intensive care capacity between Sweden's regions, told The Telegraph.

Dr Karlström said that intensive care capacity was currently tighter than at any other stage in the pandemic.

Sten Rubertsson, a doctor working for the Swedish Board of Health and Welfare, said he expected Sweden's 21 regions to release a coordinated plan to increase the number of available intensive care places "within days", ahead of the coming Christmas peak.

"It's not going in a positive direction – it's actually escalating – and if we reach a situation where we cannot handle this ourselves, we will definitely ask our brother and sister countries for assistance," he told The Telegraph.

"Both last Friday and on Wednesday this week, we had an all-time low when 13 regions had less than 25 percent capacity at the same time," he said.

The plan came after Stockholm region on Wednesday called for help from national agencies, warning that 99 percent of its intensive care places had been filled on Tuesday.

Sweden's per-capita death rate last week rose above 50 per 100,000 for the first time since the end of May, according to ECDC figures.

"We are in an extremely serious situation right now and we need help," Stockholm's health director Björn Eriksson said in a press conference.

e said the region had submitted a formal request to the National Board of Health and Welfare, which coordinates healthcare between Sweden's regions, calling for it, in turn, to seek help from the Swedish Armed Forces.

Sweden doubled its number of intensive care places in the spring to 1,100, in one of the country's most impressive achievements of the pandemic.

This meant that spare capacity never dropped below 30 percent, even when hospitalisations hit their April peak. But the extra capacity was wound down over the summer, with a huge field hospital in southern Stockholm dismantled without ever being used.

The country now has only 673 intensive care places, 82 percent of which are full, with more than 90 percent of places full in each of the four worst-hit regions.

At the same time, the onset of winter has increased the number of people needing intensive care for other emergencies. Stockholm was suffering from a shortage of trained doctors and nurses rather than beds or equipment, he stressed. But Johanna Sandvall, the board's crisis chief, said it was not easy to dispatch armed forces medical personnel, as most were reserve officers already at hospitals elsewhere.

"These are personnel who already work as nurses or doctors in a region, but if we were used the reserve officer system so that the Armed Forces just call in reserves and place them somewhere, we would just be creating a hole that the regions can't control," she said.

Rubertsson said there was "nothing strange" in requesting that other Nordic countries take patients or send personnel or equipment, saying that the most challenging patients are already frequently exchanged between the countries, with his own Uppsala region sending burns patients to Norway and neonatal patients to Finland.

"During the peak of our problems in the spring, we got offers from our neighbours, saying that they were willing to help us if we ended up in a situation where we couldn't make sure all the patients are safe," he said.

sydthebeat

some education for frank above

greyday

sydthebeat wrote: »

some education for frank above

He won't believe, I have been telling him all day while he calls me a liar, ironic considering he is the person supplying bogus figures.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

What do you call this then?



Not even sure why I'm feeding you at this stage.

Firstly, I didn't say "have never mentioned". You don't understand the difference between a general statement and an absolute statement.

Secondly, I did say 'substantively compared'.

This post is me, yet again, discrediting your arguments - and yet I'm still waiting for you to show where I've lied, or any statement I've made that discredits me.

This is my third time asking. You repeatedly throw around claims over lies and credibility. Back them up, rather than spoofing.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Firstly, I didn't say "have never mentioned". You don't understand the difference between a general statement and an absolute statement.

Secondly, I did say 'substantively compared'.

Yes I did. Its in a post from about a month ago in response to someone else.

If you'd read all my posts, you'd have seen it. I'm not going to repeat all my posts for you.

You did read all my posts?

tobefrank321

sydthebeat wrote: »

some education for frank above

Nice editing out of the part where Johanna Sandvall, the board's crisis chief, said they had no plans to send any.

You also edited out the standard agreement in scandinavia for ICU cross border support - Sweden routinely takes in icu patients from its neighbours.

You also stated 82% of ICU beds are full - you make no mention of how many are covid patients.

And you make little mention of Swedens ability to increase icu to 1100.

And you didnt bother bolding the part where Sandvall said military personal are trained in icu and can be despatched easily.

Omissions and misrepresentations all round then.

Welcome to the hard lockdown club, you're in good company. The truth is generally optional.