Sweden avoiding lockdown

biko

Re-reading the first few pages of this thread is quite eye opening.

biko

Sweden turns down offer of help from Norway.
https://direkte.vg.no/nyhetsdognet/news/sverige-takker-nei-til-norsk-corona-hjelp.KlTDhbP3H

Norway opens to send health personnel to Sweden to help with the corona crisis, writes NRK on Saturday.

On Saturday night, VG asked Sweden if they needed help. Sweden says no.

The Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs refers to the National Board of Health and Welfare, which forwards a response from emergency manager Johanna Sandwall.

Stormyteacup

charlie14 wrote: »

Average yearly deaths in Ireland are 31,000. Saving 5,000 is quite an achievement I would have thought.

It cost 64 billion to bail out Irish banks and that didn`t save a single life.

Perhaps yes, but will we do that next year to save 5,000 lives?

Re second point, yes agreed and there are many people wouldn’t have rather seen that 64 billion spent somewhere else.

Stormyteacup

odyssey06 wrote: »

Could our spending have been more targeted?
Probably.
Had we entered lockdown (or shut down foreign travel) a week earlier how many lives could we have saved?

If we hadn't entered lockdown in first wave, and our ICU was overwhelmed, our extra deaths would be more than 5000.

And in the context of this thread, how much did Sweden spend?
20 billion euros?
https://www.government.se/government-of-sweden/ministry-of-finance/central-government-budget/economic-measures-in-2020-in-response-to-covid-19/

Yes and after first lockdown we had enough information to target spending.

20 billion extra in Sweden’s budget with over twice our population - and have a good look at what they are spending it on. They have shored themselves up for long term repercussions of their light restrictions- whereas we have thrown ours into a black hole.

is_that_so

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Yes and after first lockdown we had enough information to target spending.

20 billion extra in Sweden’s budget with over twice our population - and have a good look at what they are spending it on. They have shored themselves up for long term repercussions of their light restrictions- whereas we have thrown ours into a black hole.

Is that really true?

The Irish economy rebounded sharply in the third quarter of 2020, growing by a near record 11.1 per cent, as the easing of coronavirus restrictions triggered a resurgence in activity across all sectors. We could be looking at 1% growth for the year.


The Swedish Finance Ministry’s latest estimate for 2020 points to a 4.6% contraction.

Bit cynical

is_that_so wrote: »

Is that really true?

The Irish economy rebounded sharply in the third quarter of 2020, growing by a near record 11.1 per cent, as the easing of coronavirus restrictions triggered a resurgence in activity across all sectors. We could be looking at 1% growth for the year.


The Swedish Finance Ministry’s latest estimate for 2020 points to a 4.6% contraction.

I would say we need to be a little careful using GDP as a measure of the Irish economy given the dominance of foreign multinationals, transfer pricing etc.

is_that_so

Bit cynical wrote: »

I would say we need to be a little careful using GDP as a measure of the Irish economy given the dominance of foreign multinationals, transfer pricing etc.

Sweden are in an economic pickle, ours may not be a whole lot better but we are definitely not the illusory black hole claim from above.

TonyMaloney

Sweden are looking to take health care staff from the private sector onto the state books to help alleviate the pressure they're facing in their hospitals.
It'll cost a fortune.

I also think they're facing the prospect of a strict lockdown in the near future.

hmmm

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Sweden are looking to take health care staff from the private sector onto the state books to help alleviate the pressure they're facing in their hospitals.
It'll cost a fortune.

I also think they're facing the prospect of a strict lockdown in the near future.

Sweden's ICU staff are resigning in huge numbers. Just goes to show that even if the hospital capacity itself can be expanded, you can't force staff to work in Covid wards at full capacity for months on end.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-12-12/swedish-covid-workers-are-quitting-leaving-icus-short-staffed

We're well past time of looking at Sweden for inspiration. They have huge numbers of deaths, they are asking their neighbours for ICU space and cases continue to rise, their economy is no better than the rest - they got this completely wrong.

biko

During the 2010 swine flu Sweden vaccinated 60% of the population.
The costly mass vaccination is estimated to have saved six (6) lives.
https://www.svd.se/massvaccinering-raddade-sex-liv

charlie14

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Perhaps yes, but will we do that next year to save 5,000 lives?

Re second point, yes agreed and there are many people wouldn’t have rather seen that 64 billion spent somewhere else.

With both the bank bail-out and this pandemic economically it is no different.
It was then, and still is now, a case of needs must.
There is an extra dimension to this pandemic that was not there with the banking crisis in that it is also about saving lives.


You cannot have a virus that hospitalises and kills large numbers running free with little or no restrictions, and have no economic repercussions.
Sweden tried that and it hasn`t worked with the virus or their economy.

biko

https://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/lakare-portade-aldre-fran-sjukhusvard/
When the pandemic came, a head of department in Bjärred wrote a secret decision that elderly people living at home should not receive care in hospitals.
It concerns 180 people - and that many of them do not know about it.

This is the head of department that blocked 180 elderly from hospital care, Munira Al-Saadi.
Happy to let elderly Swedes die at home.

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

https://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/lakare-portade-aldre-fran-sjukhusvard/
When the pandemic came, a head of department in Bjärred wrote a secret decision that elderly people living at home should not receive care in hospitals.
It concerns 180 people - and that many of them do not know about it.
8
This is the head of department that blocked 180 elderly from hospital care, Munira Al-Saad

Also happened in Ireland. And pretty much every country badly hit by covid including the UK.

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

During the 2010 swine flu Sweden vaccinated 60% of the population.
The costly mass vaccination is estimated to have saved six (6) lives.
https://www.svd.se/massvaccinering-raddade-sex-liv

Swine flu vaccination also happened in Ireland. Promoted by people now sitting on Nphet.

tobefrank321

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Sweden are looking to take health care staff from the private sector onto the state books to help alleviate the pressure they're facing in their hospitals.
It'll cost a fortune.

I also think they're facing the prospect of a strict lockdown in the near future.

Also happened in Ireland. They tried and probably succeded in recruiting from private nursing homes back in the spring.

Expensive private sector contract nurses have been used by the Irish healthcare system for years. A scandal considering all the nurses who often emigrate to Australia, Middle East etc

Did the Swedes take student nurses out of college and put them on the covid frontline?

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Also happened in Ireland. They tried and probably succeded in recruiting from private nursing homes back in the spring.

Expensive private sector contract nurses have been used by the Irish healthcare system for years. A scandal considering all the nurses who often emigrate to Australia, Middle East etc

Did the Swedes take student nurses out of college and put them on the covid frontline?

If Sweden are not using student nurses now, they may soon have no option but too.

A survey by Swedish broadcaster TV 4 found that in 13 of Sweden`s 21 regions, resignations in the health care profession are up from last year at as many as 500 a month. Sineva Ribeiro chairwoman of the Swedish Association of Health Professionals said the situation is "terrible" where increasingly staff are so desperate for time off they see resignation as the only way.

mcsean2163

In the NHS, there is an economic value on a life based on age, severity of illness and likely success.

If we were to analyse the cost of covid19, approximately €23 billion so far and say very crudely the that every life under 45 will be awarded 4 million to survive and every life over 1 million.

2,124 have died. 20 of those were under 45.

Imagine they get full whack. That would've been 2.1 billion plus 80 million, let's call it 2.2 billion. That means if we saved 10 times the amount of people from death, it was still bad economics.

Real people in the real world have died because they have been refused life saving treatments on economics similar to above before covid19.

This covid19 nonsense is bat**** crazy.

Stormyteacup

mcsean2163 wrote: »

In the NHS, there is an economic value on a life based on age, severity of illness and likely success.

If we were to analyse the cost of covid19, approximately €23 billion so far and say very crudely the that every life under 45 will be awarded 4 million to survive and every life over 1 million.

2,124 have died. 20 of those were under 45.

Imagine they get full whack. That would've been 2.1 billion plus 80 million, let's call it 2.2 billion. That means if we saved 10 times the amount of people from death, it was still bad economics.

Real people in the real world have died because they have been refused life saving treatments on economics similar to above before covid19.

This covid19 nonsense is bat**** crazy.

Yes QALY in Ireland is about €45,000 per year - if treatment is not cost-effective you will have to fund-raise to get treatment to prolong the life of a loved one. The drastic measures were understandable until we had a better idea of what we were dealing with, but perspective has been lost.

mcsean2163

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Yes QALY in Ireland is about €45,000 per year - if treatment is not cost-effective you will have to fund-raise to get treatment to prolong the life of a loved one. The drastic measures were understandable until we had a better idea of what we were dealing with, but perspective has been lost.

Wow, didn't know that, so my figures are miles out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.tcd.ie/Economics/assets/pdf/MScEPS/Economic%2520Evaluation/nolan9.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj2hqudjsztAhXWZxUIHVtMBBcQFjABegQIAxAF&usg=AOvVaw16zhzbu4yGB0jMFC-QUvn4

So we've gone bonkers, average age of death is 82 which is life expectancy meaning public money should not be spent on covid19 except for normal respite and normal care.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

If Sweden are not using student nurses now, they may soon have no option but too.

A survey by Swedish broadcaster TV 4 found that in 13 of Sweden`s 21 regions, resignations in the health care profession are up from last year at as many as 500 a month. Sineva Ribeiro chairwoman of the Swedish Association of Health Professionals said the situation is "terrible" where increasingly staff are so desperate for time off they see resignation as the only way.

Sweden has 400,000 healthcare staff. 500 a month represents 0.125%. Do you honestly think their healthcare will break down with monthly resignations of 0.125%?

The situation is/was terrible everywhere in Europe including here. First year student nurses pressed into service here without pay on the covid19 frontline for example.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Sweden has 400,000 healthcare staff. 500 a month represents 0.125%. Do you honestly think their healthcare will break down with monthly resignations of 0.125%?

The situation is/was terrible everywhere in Europe including here. First year student nurses pressed into service here without pay on the covid19 frontline for example.

Export.gov October 2019 lists 106,000 registered nurses in Sweden. Not all of those will be employed in the public sector. 10% of Swedes have private health insurance.
While 0.5% a month might not appear to have much effect, if a large number of those are ICU nurses or working on Covid-19 wards it would all add up.
Either way from what the chairwoman of the Swedish Association of Health Professionals had to say, and the appeal to the private sector, hospital staffing numbers do look to be under severe pressure

is_that_so

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Wow, didn't know that, so my figures are miles out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.tcd.ie/Economics/assets/pdf/MScEPS/Economic%2520Evaluation/nolan9.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj2hqudjsztAhXWZxUIHVtMBBcQFjABegQIAxAF&usg=AOvVaw16zhzbu4yGB0jMFC-QUvn4

So we've gone bonkers, average age of death is 82 which is life expectancy meaning public money should not be spent on covid19 except for normal respite and normal care.

A spot of mercy killing on a Monday morning - excellent!

Some Gandhi to go with that.

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."

sydthebeat

is_that_so wrote: »

A spot of mercy killing on a Monday morning - excellent!

Some Gandhi to go with that.

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."

Swedens "greatness" has been measured and found to be very wanting.

A lot of posters here too

greyday

The lads working in the pub trade are fervent supporters of Sweden's semi intentional cull of the elderly.

mcsean2163

If hospitals didn't have a limit, the living would exist solely to care for the dying and as a consequence the living would become part of the dying cohort through starvation etc.

People die. If you want to call reality a cull, fine whatever but just be aware that many many younger people are being culled each year for the same financial reasons.

sydthebeat

mcsean2163 wrote: »

If hospitals didn't have a limit, the living would exist solely to care for the dying and as a consequence the living would become part of the dying cohort through starvation etc.

People die. If you want to call reality a cull, fine whatever but just be aware that many many younger people are being culled each year for the same financial reasons.

the average global life expectancy in 1800 years ago was 29 years of age

in 1950 it was 46

in 2019 its 82


what do you think was the reason for this?

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Also happened in Ireland. And pretty much every country badly hit by covid including the UK.

Nope, in Ireland that decision was only made when hospitals were at max capacity. In Sweden that decision was made despite hospitals having capacity.

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Swine flu vaccination also happened in Ireland. Promoted by people now sitting on Nphet.

22% of Irish people received the Swine Flu vaccine, in sweden it was 60%+

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Also happened in Ireland. They tried and probably succeded in recruiting from private nursing homes back in the spring.

Expensive private sector contract nurses have been used by the Irish healthcare system for years. A scandal considering all the nurses who often emigrate to Australia, Middle East etc

Did the Swedes take student nurses out of college and put them on the covid frontline?

They didn't recruit from private nursing homes. Staff working in private nursing homes on temporary contracts chose to avail of general recruitment into the HSE.


There's a huge difference between those two things, although I'm sure you're going to reply showing that you can't see that.


p.s. still waiting, Mr Credibility

biko

greyday wrote: »

The lads working in the pub trade are fervent supporters of Sweden's semi intentional cull of the elderly.

Not only them.
Swedish journalist Kristoffer Viita thinks it's great old people die off and leave their apartments behind.

https://nyadagbladet.se/inrikes/svt-journalist-jublar-over-att-gamla-dor-av-coronaviruset/

"Uhm, but if a lot of corona old people die, there may finally be some jobs available," Viita writes in a post.

"And think of all the apartments that will become vacant when the old people die. I'm starting to think this virus is God's gift to all millennials and Gen Zs."

biko

On March 8 this year - three days before the World Health Organization declared the covid-19 outbreak a pandemic - the Indian government ordered telecom operators to send text messages with basic information about the disease to the country's about 1.3 billion mobile phones.

In Norway, it took a little longer, they sent mass messages with corona info on March 12th.

In Sweden it was sent today December 14th...

Compare the message from Denmark to Sweden's

TonyMaloney

Sweden have now surpassed the number of hospitalised from the first wave.