Sweden avoiding lockdown

biko

Widdensushi wrote: »

So Norway are doing exceptionally well, Sweden are doing average, maybe Norway should have their own thread?

Sure why not.

TallyRand

Swedish aren’t looking so bad in the broad picture.
Everything still humming fairly well there and comfortably mid table on the deaths list, you can compare them to the worst or the best (as many do each way) but the facts show they are very mid table and that surely that equals a massive success

charlie14

biko wrote: »

Teachers in a Swedish town were not allowed by local government to wear PPE (facemasks).

After a furore of complaints the local government have now changed their minds.

Sweden, 2021.

https://omni.se/halmstad-infor-forbud-mot-munskydd-i-skolorna/a/GaBj9q
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/just-nu-kommunen-andrar-sig-haver-munskyddsforbud

Halmstad municipal authority have said it was due to a lack of clarity.
"Our previous position was based on following the Public Health Agency`s recommendations".


Like other municipal and regional authorities in Sweden, they havenow decided to go their own way and let teachers wear PPE.

TallyRand

TallyRand wrote: »

Swedish aren’t looking so bad in the broad picture.
Everything still humming fairly well there and comfortably mid table on the deaths list, you can compare them to the worst or the best (as many do each way) but the facts show they are very mid table and that surely that equals a massive success

Ireland has comparatively low road deaths compared to the whole world. We have one of the best health systems compared to the whole world. We're very high-table on pretty much any sort of spending for anything good when compared to the rest of the world.
'THE FACTS SHOW THAT IRELAND IS A MASSIVE SUCCESS IN EVERY POSSIBLE THING'


That's why scientists/experts in any area compare countries that are grouped together as being similar (whether demographically, geographically, economically, politically, culturally or otherwise).


It's only armchair experts on the internet who decide that
1) It's WRONG to compare Sweden with the countries that it is demographically, geographically, economically and culturally closest to because that makes Sweden look bad
&
2) It's RIGHT to compare Sweden with literally any country in the world that makes it look good.

It's as if these people have no idea that 'nordic countries' are routinely grouped together as being a unique block disparate from the rest of Europe.

Oh, they are unaware. Because they're risibly ignorant.

charlie14

TallyRand wrote: »

Swedish aren’t looking so bad in the broad picture.
Everything still humming fairly well there and comfortably mid table on the deaths list, you can compare them to the worst or the best (as many do each way) but the facts show they are very mid table and that surely that equals a massive success

If Sweden is a massive success, then what does that make the other Nordic countries. Or Ireland for that matter ?

TallyRand

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ireland has comparatively low road deaths compared to the whole world. We have one of the best health systems compared to the whole world. We're very high-table on pretty much any sort of spending for anything good when compared to the rest of the world.
'THE FACTS SHOW THAT IRELAND IS A MASSIVE SUCCESS IN EVERY POSSIBLE THING'


That's why scientists/experts in any area compare countries that are grouped together as being similar (whether demographically, geographically, economically, politically, culturally or otherwise).


It's only armchair experts on the internet who decide that
1) It's WRONG to compare Sweden with the countries that it is demographically, geographically, economically and culturally closest to because that makes Sweden look bad
&
2) It's RIGHT to compare Sweden with literally any country in the world that makes it look good.

It's as if these people have no idea that 'nordic countries' are routinely grouped together as being a unique block disparate from the rest of Europe.

Oh, they are unaware. Because they're risibly ignorant.

Well let’s only compare it with European countries then? Belgium is the basket case it seems, not Sweden. Btw I wasn’t doing the binary comparisons to A or B, just observing Sweden is relatively decent shape all things considered

To your other point, yes Ireland actually is a massive success in general world terms in the grand scheme of things . There’s about 7 billion people who’d chop of their left arm to live here.

TallyRand

charlie14 wrote: »

If Sweden is a massive success, then what does that make the other Nordic countries. Or Ireland for that matter ?

They look poor compared to other nordics and similar to Ireland WITHOUT stopping medical screenings and many other medical procedures and keeping their kids educated and their whole economy ticking.

Sweden fcuked up same way as everyone else by not sorting the retirement homes out quick enough.

Not sure why there is an obscene amount of people on here dying to wag the finger at Sweden, I think they’ll come out of this a lot better than others.....do you agree?

charlie14

TallyRand wrote: »

They look poor compared to other nordics and similar to Ireland WITHOUT stopping medical screenings and many other medical procedures and keeping their kids educated and their whole economy ticking.

Sweden fcuked up same way as everyone else by not sorting the retirement homes out quick enough.

Not sure why there is an obscene amount of people on here dying to wag the finger at Sweden, I think they’ll come out of this a lot better than others.....do you agree?

Like every other country Sweden cancelled medical screening and other medical procedures during both their first and the present wave and their economy is better than some, worse than others.

The title of this thread is Sweden avoiding lockdown. There are some on here still in denial that Sweden`s strategy during their first wave was herd immunity and stuck with that strategy long after it was obvious it was unachievable. Some here were even cheerleaders for the strategy Their Public Health Authority were still prepared to stick with that strategy until the local authorities had enough and started imposing their own lockdowns.
The Public Health Authority strategy gained Sweden nothing other than justifiable finger wagging.


Tegnell did get one thing right though. Attempting acquired herd immunity is immoral. Every bit as immoral when he said that as when himself and Giesecke put the strategy in place.

If they had imposed a lockdown from the outset like their Nordic neighbours they would have a lot less Covid deaths ...... do you agree ?

Ficheall

How is this thread still going? Are there also people claiming Bill Clinton did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinski?

Ficheall

Ficheall wrote: »

How is this thread still going? Are there also people claiming Bill Clinton did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinski?

Probably because they proved to the world that lockdown really didn’t help anywhere near as much as some seem to think.

No lockdown for months and they are mid table in deaths.

Does lockdown prevent some Covid deaths? Yes probably.

But look at the mountain of issues it is causing in society. Hardly a great trade off.

Polar101

"up to" 160k Swedes might have Long Covid, according to a study.

(Link only in Swedish, but I assume virologists are multilingual)
https://www.expressen.se/tv/nyheter/coronaviruset/var-fjarde-som-insjuknat-i-covid-19-ar-langtidssjuk/

Seweryn

Deleted User wrote: »

Does lockdown prevent some Covid deaths? Yes probably.

But look at the mountain of issues it is causing in society. Hardly a great trade off.

True.

If the only thing that we focus on in our existence is eliminating Cov. at all cost, then lockdowns are great. But there are also other aspects of life to be considered, and we need to make sure we balance things right when chosing one strategy versus the other.
So far almost every country puts too much pressure on one side.

JimmyVik

Seweryn wrote: »

True.

If the only thing that we focus on in our existence is eliminating Cov. at all cost, then lockdowns are great. But there are also other aspects of life to be considered, and we need to make sure we balance things right when chosing one strategy versus the other.
So far almost every country puts too much pressure on one side.

Yeah, like actually being alive

JimmyVik

JimmyVik wrote: »

Yeah, like actually being alive

I think most people want more out of life than simply being alive.

JimmyVik

Deleted User wrote: »

I think most people want more out of life than simply being alive.

Not the ones who died surely.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably because they proved to the world that lockdown really didn’t help anywhere near as much as some seem to think.

No lockdown for months and they are mid table in deaths.

Does lockdown prevent some Covid deaths? Yes probably.

But look at the mountain of issues it is causing in society. Hardly a great trade off.

No lockdown but loads of folk behaved as if there was one and businesses got little help as they were allowed open.

tobefrank321

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I thought posters here were saying Sweden was in lockdown since November?

Something fishy going on here. Maybe a bit of dishonesty?

They've been about to go into lockdown since last August according to some on here. They were also about to export icu patients according to others.
Neither happened.

tobefrank321

Looking at successful versus failed lockdown countries and Portugal and Slovakia are the latest to join the latter, its clear that lockdowns by themselves are not the answer.
Its countries with closed borders and quarantines who succeed and Norway, NZ, Aus etc fall into that camp. The latter use targetted lockdowns now and again but don't have anything like the 3 month long national lockdowns we have in Europe.

tobefrank321

Ficheall wrote: »

How is this thread still going? Are there also people claiming Bill Clinton did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinski?

Its still going because most countries wasted time and money on the wrong strategy. Rather than shutting borders and quarantining arrivals, instead they allowed covid in to become rampant, then went for lockdowns when it was already too late. Only now are many countries including Ireland learning this mistake.

tobefrank321

biko wrote: »

Azerbaijan, also Sweden's size 3,082
Greece, also Sweden's size - 5,646
Portugal, also Sweden's size - 10,469

Like Belgium and Czech Republic they are far away from Sweden.
Norway and Sweden is next door, they are as close as Scotland and England.

In fact Scotland and Norway have the same populations.
Scotland (pop 5.4m) 7,448 deaths
Norway (pop 5.4m) 544 deaths

Portugal had 1766 deaths in the last 7 days, probably the worst week in the whole pandemic for any country. Its roughly equivalent to 53,000 deaths in one week in the US or 7500 deaths a day.

Its obvious they screwed up and despite having the advantage of only a single land border and opting for a harsh lockdown early on, are now on course for one of the worst results in the world. Cases are also at an all time high this week.

Ginger n Lemon

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Portugal had 1766 deaths in the last 7 days, probably the worst week in the whole pandemic for any country. Its roughly equivalent to 53,000 deaths in one week in the US or 7500 deaths a day.

Its obvious they screwed up and despite having the advantage of only a single land border and opting for a harsh lockdown early on, are now on course for one of the worst results in the world. Cases are also at an all time high this week.

They probably didnt have any lockdown since March and are just about getting to start implementing it now right? :pac::pac:

tobefrank321

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

They probably didnt have any lockdown since March and are just about getting to start implementing it now right? :pac::pac:

They had a harsh lockdown. When the world was having a go at Sweden, Portugal was held up as a great example.

Portugal on current trends will end up far worse than Sweden. Proving again that lockdowns by themselves are not a credible long term strategy. I'd call them more of a short term tactic than anything else.

Portugal opened up too much in the summer but then again they depend hugely on tourism. There was no way they could sustain a strict lockdown.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

They had a harsh lockdown. When the world was having a go at Sweden, Portugal was held up as a great example.

Portugal on current trends will end up far worse than Sweden. Proving again that lockdowns by themselves are not a credible long term strategy. I'd call them more of a short term tactic than anything else.

Portugal opened up too much in the summer but then again they depend hugely on tourism. There was no way they could sustain a strict lockdown.

Will you ever have a bit of sense.

The Swedish strategy devised by Tegnell and Gieseck was a failure on all levels. Even the regional authorities recognised that and finally put a stop to it, introducing their own local lockdowns and forcing the government to back them and sideline the Public Health Authority.

The final straw was Tegnell lifting restrictions on care homes, telling the vulnerable it was fine to go out and mingle, and about to raise the numbers at public gatherings to 500 when it was obvious from rising numbers they were in a second wave. Like everywhere else contrary, to all the resistance from the PHA, they have also introduced face masks.


This pretend rubbish from cheerleaders of the original Swedish strategy that nothing has changed is risible nonsense.

At this point I do not know which is worse. The "immoral" herd immunity strategy that cost lives, or with Sweden not only being part of the EU vaccine purchase program, but having their own side deal with AstraZenaca for nothing other than pigheadedness, they haven`t introduced a harder lockdown which would have saved lives until they reach actual herd immunity through vaccination. Or at least until their vulnerable are vaccinated.

greyday

Swedish stats are by their own admission not accurate due to the complexity of actually diagnosing someone with covid after death, god help them when the UK variant takes hold.

Are there many whistleblower scandals in Sweden or are they good citizens that give a nod and a wink when the state goes about trying to protect the Countries reputation?

Its only an innocent question before someone blows their top

biko

I follow a lot of people on Twitter that tweet around Sweden's strategy.
Just like in this thread there are some people that think it is a good strategy, and some who think it is a bad strategy.

Sweden is obsessed with its image abroad. So it's imperative for them to not lose face over this.
For instance when Sweden hit 8000 dead and the King said the strategy had failed - all hell broke loose.
There was a lot of damage control as in various "experts" trying to downplay what he had said. "The King shouldn't get involved in affairs of state" and such.

However, the King is highly regarded in Sweden as his only concern is the welfare of his subjects and he has no political gains - as opposed to the Social Democratic/Greens government that could lose the next election 2022 over their handling of the crisis.

Breezin

biko wrote: »

I follow a lot of people on Twitter that tweet around Sweden's strategy.
Just like in this thread there are some people that think it is a good strategy, and some who think it is a bad strategy.

Sweden is obsessed with its image abroad. So it's imperative for them to not lose face over this.
For instance when Sweden hit 8000 dead and the King said the strategy had failed - all hell broke loose.
There was a lot of damage control as in various "experts" trying to downplay what he had said. "The King shouldn't get involved in affairs of state" and such.

However, the King is highly regarded in Sweden as his only concern is the welfare of his subjects and he has no political gains - as opposed to the Social Democratic/Greens government that could lose the next election 2022 over their handling of the crisis.

Oh good. Let's all do what the f*&%ing king says.

I've seen a lot of mad things on Boards, but this is a first. Someone actively arguing for the value of monarchy. :eek: Question is, would a dictator not be more efficient and easier to get past the budget responsibility crew?

This must be what they meant when they said Covid 19 would change things forever.

biko

Not sure how you could take that from my post.
It says that the King doesn't have a political agenda. You go on about dictators?
Ah well.


On topic.
A clinic in Sweden who tested Swedes for travel abroad was caught printing negative corona certs, but didn't actually test anything!
The doctor is now fired from his regular job at a nearby hospital and is under investigation by the police.
https://www.gp.se/nyheter/g%C3%B6teborg/gp-avsl%C3%B6jar-svenskar-har-lurats-med-falska-coronadokument-1.39794074

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

Will you ever have a bit of sense.

The Swedish strategy devised by Tegnell and Gieseck was a failure on all levels. Even the regional authorities recognised that and finally put a stop to it, introducing their own local lockdowns and forcing the government to back them and sideline the Public Health Authority.

The final straw was Tegnell lifting restrictions on care homes, telling the vulnerable it was fine to go out and mingle, and about to raise the numbers at public gatherings to 500 when it was obvious from rising numbers they were in a second wave. Like everywhere else contrary, to all the resistance from the PHA, they have also introduced face masks.


This pretend rubbish from cheerleaders of the original Swedish strategy that nothing has changed is risible nonsense.

At this point I do not know which is worse. The "immoral" herd immunity strategy that cost lives, or with Sweden not only being part of the EU vaccine purchase program, but having their own side deal with AstraZenaca for nothing other than pigheadedness, they haven`t introduced a harder lockdown which would have saved lives until they reach actual herd immunity through vaccination. Or at least until their vulnerable are vaccinated.

There is no getting away from the fact that you are the number 1 advocate on here for the hard lockdown strategy that has delivered 2500 deaths in the last 9 days in Portugal and they blasted past Sweden today with 300 notified deaths for one day.

Odd how Sweden follow one approach and will end mid table with cases now declining, their icu admissions pro rata 50% below ours and a fraction of many other countries whereas Portugal followed the approach you cheerleaded and are on course for the worst outcome in the world, by far worse than Sweden.

charlie14

I am not an advocator of hard lockown, but I do understand the phrase "where needs must" Especially during a pandemic where there are vaccines that will reduce infections and deaths.

"Sweden follow one approach". Where have you been since early October ?

You are still on here defending a Public Health Authority approach that the regional authorities, as soon as they had the power to do so, forced the government to sideline by imposing their own local lockdowns. They, like their head of state recognised it for the failure it was, yet you are still posting here as if nothing changed.

Not that I believe there are many similarities between Ireland and Sweden,but if you are making one off pro-rata comparisons between ICU admissions as some attempt at suggesting Ireland with falling numbers will be anywhere close to Sweden, then you are very much mistaken.
At present pro-rata Sweden has 80% more Covid deaths than Ireland and over 40% more people infected.

Ginger n Lemon

Read this and thought of you Charles


Jan. 29, 2021 -- The latest antibody testing data conducted in Delhi, India suggests that the nation's capital may be very close to attaining herd immunity against COVID-19.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210129/herd-immunity-in-sight-for-indias-capitol

Herd immunity arising. everywhere on every continent.

Giesecke was right.