Sweden avoiding lockdown

Not in Kansas

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Covid is a disease which kills over 90% in the over 65 category.

Surely you have phrased that incorrectly?

90% of covid-related deaths are over the age of 65,
not
90% of people over the age of 65 die if they get covid.

FintanMcluskey

glasso wrote: »

or the countries actually geographically near and way more demographically and culturally similar to Sweden than Ireland (i.e Norway, Finland, Denmark) - the ones beside them for example - oh yeah they have Covid death per capita rates of 10% (Finland, Norway) to 30% (Denmark) the rates of Sweden!

ignoring the obvious yet again and seeking to draw a parallel that is pretty much irrelevant.

Have Norway, Finland and Denmark have similar immigration rates as Sweden though?

Sweden’s population consisted of about 20% foreign born in 2018.

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Have Norway, Finland and Denmark have similar immigration rates as Sweden though?

Sweden’s population consisted of about 20% foreign born in 2018.

Norway has 10% of the Swedish covid per capita death rate

They have 17% foreign born population.

Absolutely massive difference... in the Covid per capita death rate that is at 1/10th that of Sweden

tobefrank321

glasso wrote: »

or the countries actually geographically near and way more demographically and culturally similar to Sweden than Ireland (i.e Norway, Finland, Denmark) - the ones beside them for example - oh yeah they have Covid death per capita rates of 10% (Finland, Norway) to 30% (Denmark) the rates of Sweden!

ignoring the obvious yet again and seeking to draw a parallel that is pretty much irrelevant.

Have you looked at a map of Scandinavia recently?

Finlands land borders with the rest of Scandinavia are in the ARCTIC CIRCLE.

Norway shut their border with Sweden, their only easily accessible land border. Their order land borders are also in the Arctic circle.

Sweden's land borders are with Norway and a bridge to Denmark.

Sweden are in the EU, Norway are not. Sweden are more committed to open borders than Norway, which is a problem in the time of pandemic. Norway use quarantine hotels, I don't believe Sweden does that.

If you bothered to look past the fact they were all once Vikings which appears to about as far as most people look into this, you'll see significant differences between the countries.

And I didn't even mention the differences in their economies - Norways exports are over 60% oil and gas, Sweden's less than 10%.

Any proper analsis of covid 19 success and failure stories would lead a person to see its not lockdowns by themselves that work, but control of borders.

The successful countries (regardless of lockdown or not) are islands, countries who quarantine arrivals in hotels, remote countries or brutal dictatorships who can imprison people in their home and drag them off to quarantine if they test positive.

Putting all your eggs in the lockdown basket hasn't worked for a large number of countries.

Go Gemma!

Denmark is more exposed to continental Europe than Sweden and has a fraction of Sweden's Covid death rate.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Have you looked at a map of Scandinavia recently?

Finlands land borders with the rest of Scandinavia are in the ARCTIC CIRCLE.

Norway shut their border with Sweden, their only easily accessible land border. Their order land borders are also in the Arctic circle.

Sweden's land borders are with Norway and a bridge to Denmark.

Sweden are in the EU, Norway are not. Sweden are more committed to open borders than Norway, which is a problem in the time of pandemic. Norway use quarantine hotels, I don't believe Sweden does that.

If you bothered to look past the fact they were all once Vikings which appears to about as far as most people look into this, you'll see significant differences between the countries.

And I didn't even mention the differences in their economies - Norways exports are over 60% oil and gas, Sweden's less than 10%.

Any proper analsis of covid 19 success and failure stories would lead a person to see its not lockdowns by themselves that work, but control of borders.

The successful countries (regardless of lockdown or not) are islands, countries who quarantine arrivals in hotels, remote countries or brutal dictatorships who can imprison people in their home and drag them off to quarantine if they test positive.

Putting all your eggs in the lockdown basket hasn't worked for a large number of countries.

So, Denmark?

tobefrank321

Not in Kansas wrote: »

Surely you have phrased that incorrectly?

90% of covid-related deaths are over the age of 65,
not
90% of people over the age of 65 die if they get covid.

Most people understood what I meant. Over 90% of covid deaths tend to be in the over 65s.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

So, Denmark?

Second worst in Scandinavia, also in the EU.

Any chance you'd make a more detailed post next time?

tobefrank321

glasso wrote: »

Go Gemma!

Denmark is more exposed to continental Europe than Sweden and has a fraction of Sweden's Covid death rate.

Reported.

Sweden as a proxy anti-lockdown argument for the Gemma Bros has failed completely :P

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Second worst in Scandinavia, also in the EU.

Any chance you'd make a more detailed post next time?

31.75%

tobefrank321

glasso wrote: »

Sweden as a proxy anti-lockdown argument for the Gemma Bros has failed completely :P

I'll keep reporting childishness like this so keep it up.

Posts like yours demonstrate why this thread always ends up in the gutter.

puzl

And yet you still see the Sweden example being bandied about daily.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

I'll keep reporting childishness like this so keep it up.

reported

tobefrank321

puzl wrote: »

And yet you still see the Sweden example being bandied about daily.

The lessons from Sweden are obvious. Its nothing to do with lockdown vs no lockdown.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Second worst in Scandinavia, also in the EU.

Any chance you'd make a more detailed post next time?

With the same proportion of its population aged over 65 and has pro rata 68% less deaths than the worst in Scandinavia

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

With the same proportion of its population aged over 65 and has pro rata 68% less deaths than the worst in Scandinavia

The point I was making is you can rank the Scandinavian countries in terms of openness of borders and travel, from most open to least.

And if lockdowns were a success, Portugal and a large number of other countries in Europe would be doing much better than Sweden. They aren't.

If Portugal doesn't undermine the lockdown argument I don't know what will.

The success stories are remote countries usually with hotel quarantines - NZ, Aus, China, Norway, etc

Only now Irish politicians have copped this, 9 months too late.

It's amazing to see that how arguments can "pivot" from saying that relatively geographically-isolated Sweden is doing really well with light restrictions and then when the undeniable proof of Sweden's worst year for excess mortality per capita and excess deaths in over 100 years becomes apparent....

A more geographically exposed Denmark only has 30% of its covid per capita death rate

now it's all about border control folks!

tobefrank321

glasso wrote: »

It's amazing to see that how arguments can "pivot" from saying that relatively geographically-isolated Sweden is doing really well with light restrictions and then when the undeniable proof of Sweden's worst year for excess mortality per capita and excess deaths in over 100 years becomes apparent....

A more geographically exposed Denmark only has 30% of its covid per capita death rate

now it's all about border control folks!

It is about border control.

Most of China, NZ and Australia are not locked down.

The idea that if you go into permanent lockdown it will solve the problem isn't backed up by facts.

Once Ireland reopens in a few weeks, we will be back to square one within a forthnight if we don't control cases coming into the country, particularly the new variants.

If Ireland was able to seal its borders like NZ or Aus we wouldn't need long running near permanent lockdowns.

Keep believing lockdowns will get us out of this mess if you want, I don't care.

NZ and Australia got out of it but only with border controls. You can watch sporting matches with full crowds over there any day of the week. They even offered to host the Lions matches!

Meanwhile Europe is stuck with near permanent lockdowns and empty stadiums and closed shops, bars and restaurants. And we are no nearer to getting out of it.

Lockdowns alone are a waste of time, they are only temporary solutions to get you from one crisis to the next. Relying on them ALONE is a terrible strategy which is why most countries are starting to focus on border controls.

I didn't say that border control is irrelevant

it's certainly important - increasingly so when case numbers are getting to a low level where foreign imported cases can affect the situation materially and when possible new variants from abroad could impact also (e.g. the South African variant)

but this thread was / is about Sweden

not border control in Ireland

Sweden's policy has failed in relation to its most relevant comparators and they have acknowledged this themselves.

greyday

Sweden are not even dealing with the UK variant yet, its unlikely they will keep it at bay but let's hope they do.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The point I was making is you can rank the Scandinavian countries in terms of openness of borders and travel, from most open to least.

And if lockdowns were a success, Portugal and a large number of other countries in Europe would be doing much better than Sweden. They aren't.

If Portugal doesn't undermine the lockdown argument I don't know what will.

The success stories are remote countries usually with hotel quarantines - NZ, Aus, China, Norway, etc

Only now Irish politicians have copped this, 9 months too late.

There was nothing preventing Sweden closing it`s borders. Just the same as there was nothing to prevent them initially using lockdown. Those were choices they made not to do when they decided to attempt herd immunity.


When you have already high levels of infections, closing borders is pretty much pointless unless you are stopping the spread of infections you already have.
Using lockdown at the right time and at the right level will do that. All those countries you mention, even with closed borders did that, and with stricter lockdowns than we had.


Where Sweden had a choice of closing borders and failed to do so, in Ireland we had no such choice. For all practical levels we still don`t.



All the Irish security forces, the Norhern Ireland security forces and the British army in a hundred years have not be able to seal the border with Northern Ireland. I would not look at recent high numbers in Ireland`s border counties as unconnected with that.


Unless you can come up with some means of persuading Northern unionists and the British government to agree on an all Ireland approach, similar to the past hundred years then there is no way we can seal our borders.

Again, this is the Sweden thread

Ireland border controls should be discussed in other more relevant threads really one would agree

unfortunately Sweden-proxy arguments are a fail in this regard even though it's blindingly obvious that the hope that they would be an example to be used for other agendas in relation to Ireland was a die-hard wish for some posters

FintanMcluskey

The logic being applied in here is straight from the moon.

Sweden, mid range death rate in the EU with few mitigation measures has been a failure because it didn’t have a lower death rate than the country with the EU’s lowest death rate!??

So by that logic every nation that didn’t better Norway’s death rate is a failure?

But there is still no correlation between stay at home measures and low death rate then

Maybe I’m missing something

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The logic being applied in here is straight from the moon.

Sweden, mid range death rate in the EU with few mitigation measures has been a failure because it didn’t have a lower death rate than the country with the EU’s lowest death rate!??

So by that logic every nation that didn’t better Norway’s death rate is a failure?

But there is still no correlation between stay at home measures and low death rate then

Maybe I’m something

Denmark, Norway and Finland are the best comparators that Sweden has for a basis of comparison of Covid policy outcomes to to the often afore mentioned factors of geography, demographics and culture.

there are differences but they by far offer the best basis for comparison.

this is known.

Sweden's policy outcome has failed miserably in comparison to all three by a factor of multiples varying from 3.3 to 10 on the metric of covid deaths per capita.

Therefore, in relation to its best and most relevant comparators, Sweden's policy has failed on this metric.

Stating that Norway is the best in Europe is mere whataboutery.

maybe you are something...

humberklog

Not to drag it off topic but I'm a bit lost on "Gemma Bros". What's/ Who's that?

charlie14

humberklog wrote: »

Not to drag it off topic but I'm a bit lost on "Gemma Bros". What's/ Who's that?

I`m presuming Gemma O Doherty and her belief that we should have followed Sweden`sstrategy.
At least that is what I think her belief is, but then again she is so off the wall who knows for sure.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

Not to drag it off topic but I'm a bit lost on "Gemma Bros". What's/ Who's that?

Gemma O'Doherty - you may recall her many protests / stunts and court challenges etc against lockdown measures

fair attribution I would have thought given that most of of this thread in terms of the plainly forlorn arguments in favour of Sweden's policy and denial of its failure has been pretty much completely driven by pretence and a proxy-argument agenda hope that it could be proven that lockdowns are a fail and we should go Sweden's way and/or some other non-Sweden agenda points.

Ireland certainly hasn't taken all the right steps but again this is supposed to be a thread about Sweden.

humberklog

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m presuming Gemma O Doherty and her belief that we should have followed Sweden`sstrategy.
At least that is what I think her belief is, but then again she is so off the wall who knows for sure.

She has as far as I'm aware never mentioned Sweden's approach at least not in any meaningful way.

Ah here, lumping a poster in with GO'D just because they've an opposing view of how Sweden handled the virus shows a serious lack of debating ability.

It's just lazy snideness.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

She has as far as I'm aware never mentioned Sweden's approach at least not in any meaningful way.

Ah here, lumping a poster in with GO'D just because they've an opposing view of how Sweden handled the virus shows a serious lack of debating ability.

It's just lazy snideness.

pure pretence and agenda-mongering use of Sweden's policy and bizarre state-of-denial of same in terms of its failure is worse but was blatantly obvious.