Sweden avoiding lockdown

ah now,

literally two meaningless whataboutery posts in a row

that's what it has come to?

charlie14

sheepysheep wrote: »

Yes, it will be interesting to see Irelands excess deaths over that period after the last months deaths.

A number of posters made the point earlier in the year that it would only really be excess deaths which would eventually reveal the true picture.

It's a good objective piece of analysis by the Economist and it really is kryptonite for the 'Immoral Sweden failed murderously brigade'. They ended up in the top half in Europe and fared far better than North and South America also.

Why compare Sweden to countries in North and South America when that Economist article compares Sweden to countries in it`s own bailiwick of Northern Europe on excess deaths due to Covid

tobefrank321

glasso wrote: »

ah now,

literally two meaningless whataboutery posts in a row

that's what it has come to?

This thread could be called whatabout the rest of scandinavia and your posts are a continuation of that.
I've no problem taking Sweden on its own merits without refering to any other country including scandinavian.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

Why compare Sweden to countries in North and South America when that Economist article compares Sweden to countries in it`s own bailiwick of Northern Europe on excess deaths due to Covid

One last time, Ireland and the UK are in the same area.

Are they the same or similar?

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

This thread could be called whatabout the rest of scandinavia and your posts are a continuation of that.
I've no problem taking Sweden on its own merits without refering to any other country including scandinavian.

you revealed your proxy border control agenda when you let your mask slip

go back to that in some other thread maybe?

you've lost the Sweden battle as Sweden itself has conceded by moving to tighten its restrictions and abandon its herd immunity fantasy

failing on an economic basis also is a double blade to the heart for the policy

tobefrank321

glasso wrote: »

you revealed your proxy border control agenda when you let your mask slip

go back to that in some other thread maybe?

you've lost the Sweden battle as Sweden itself has conceded by moving to tighten its restrictions and abandon its herd immunity fantasy

failing on an economic basis also is a double blade to the heart for the policy

Proxy border control? Mask slipping? What are you on about?

As for herd immunity even Charlie admits they gave up on it.

You guys need to get your stories straight!

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

One last time, Ireland and the UK are in the same area.

Are they the same or similar?

In regards to the post I was replying to, geographically alone, much closer than Sweden and North or South America.


On your previous post, the UK played around with Sweden`s herd immunity first wave, and messed around with lockdown this wave to the extent nobody knew what was happening.

America if you hadn`t noticed had Trump, and Portugal for Christmas hadn`t even a recommendation on numbers meeting and then waited too long to re-introduce lockdown.

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

It is about border control.

Most of China, NZ and Australia are not locked down.

The idea that if you go into permanent lockdown it will solve the problem isn't backed up by facts.

Once Ireland reopens in a few weeks, we will be back to square one within a forthnight if we don't control cases coming into the country, particularly the new variants.

If Ireland was able to seal its borders like NZ or Aus we wouldn't need long running near permanent lockdowns.

Keep believing lockdowns will get us out of this mess if you want, I don't care.

NZ and Australia got out of it but only with border controls. You can watch sporting matches with full crowds over there any day of the week. They even offered to host the Lions matches!

Meanwhile Europe is stuck with near permanent lockdowns and empty stadiums and closed shops, bars and restaurants. And we are no nearer to getting out of it.

Lockdowns alone are a waste of time, they are only temporary solutions to get you from one crisis to the next. Relying on them ALONE is a terrible strategy which is why most countries are starting to focus on border controls.

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Proxy border control? Mask slipping? What are you on about?

As for herd immunity even Charlie admits they gave up on it.

You guys need to get your stories straight!

here when you started foaming and frothing about border control in Ireland (in the Sweden thread)

proxy agenda.

Sweden has given up on all of its initial policy because it failed completely.

on a mortality basis and an economic one.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Proxy border control? Mask slipping? What are you on about?

As for herd immunity even Charlie admits they gave up on it.

You guys need to get your stories straight!

rom Tegnell`s PHA changes and those he intended to introduce in October, it was more a case of the local authorities forcing them than them doing it voluntarily.
Even when they and the world and it`s mother knew it was a failure.

tobefrank321

glasso wrote: »

here when you started foaming and frothing about border control in Ireland (in the Sweden thread)

proxy agenda.

Sweden has given up on all of its initial policy because it failed completely.

on a mortality basis and an economic one.

Proxy agenda? What is my agenda in relation to covid 19 border control? I want it kept out like happened in NZ and Aus. What do you want? For it to be brought in?

Those countries aren't even in national lockdown! Their deaths are minimal.

Ireland meanwhile is in near permanemt lockdown with high deaths.

LOCKDOWNS BY THEMSELVES DON'T WORK. They are the equivalent of p*ssing into the wind.

You get it?

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

LOCKDOWNS BY THEMSELVES DON'T WORK. They are the equivalent of p*ssing into the wind.

You get it?

oh I get it.

and that is the sole reason for your thousands of posts in the Sweden thread - and why you won't admit (what Sweden themselves have admitted) - that they failed.

because you think that admitting that is admitting that lockdowns might work

it's beyond a joke at this stage.

you only care about your perceived justification of lockdowns not working and can't admit that your great white hope of Sweden proving this somehow has gone down the swanny

it's FRANK-ly pathetic

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Proxy agenda? What is my agenda in relation to covid 19 border control? I want it kept out like happened in NZ and Aus. What do you want? For it to be brought in?

Those countries aren't even in national lockdown! Their deaths are minimal.

Ireland meanwhile is in near permanemt lockdown with high deaths.

LOCKDOWNS BY THEMSELVES DON'T WORK. They are the equivalent of p*ssing into the wind.

You get it?

So you have a solution to the problem of the Northern Ireland border that has been impossible to seal for the last 100 years ?



NZ and Aus. without any land borders still didn`t keep it out and when needed imposed much stricter lockdowns than any we have had.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

So you have a solution to the problem of the Northern Ireland border that has been impossible to seal for the last 100 years ?



NZ and Aus. without any land borders still didn`t keep it out and when needed imposed much stricter lockdowns than any we have had.

Imposed short term localised lockdowns, not longterm national lockdowns.

The Norwegians routinely shut the border with Swedena far longer border. It can be done.

Danno

charlie14 wrote: »

There was nothing preventing Sweden closing it`s borders.

Exactly, if liberal Sweden had to shut her external borders and let the virus fade away within her borders they'd be in a much better place.

There is a thing as too much liberalism.

Someone brought up a point about the Irish border on this thread, funny that when you think about it a bit more - the ones screaming for border closures in Ireland are liberal leftys.

It's a beautifukl sight. (k intentional).

Danno

Danno wrote: »

Exactly, if liberal Sweden had to shut her external borders and let the virus fade away within her borders they'd be in a much better place.

There is a thing as too much liberalism.

Someone brought up a point about the Irish border on this thread, funny that when you think about it a bit more - the ones screaming for border closures in Ireland are liberal leftys.

It's a beautifukl sight. (k intentional).

tobefrank is the big border control man

the jokers who can't admit Sweden failed in their policy might all have as their core reason for not being able to admit that Swden failed as they are against the concept of lockdowns so stick to their forlorn guns.

but then they differ on other points like the border lol - e.g. the bould Fintan and Frank differ here

they are not even united in defeat

sad really.

they should really give up on any hope of Sweden proving anything against lockdowns but just can't admit that they are wrong about Sweden even tho the country itself has heavily tightened its restrictions in the light of its bad mortality and excess deaths record.

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Imposed short term localised lockdowns, not longterm national lockdowns.

So lockdowns don`t work, but then again very severe lockdowns do. That is basically what you are saying.


Unless you can solve the problem of sealing a land border that nobody has even come close to being able too in 100 years, or talk the DUP and the British government into Northern Ireland being part of an all Ireland approach, (good luck with that one), then making comparisons to NZ and Aus on sealing borders and short term localised lockdowns is a nonsense.

FintanMcluskey

Danno wrote: »

Exactly, if liberal Sweden had to shut her external borders and let the virus fade away within her borders they'd be in a much better place.

There is a thing as too much liberalism.

Someone brought up a point about the Irish border on this thread, funny that when you think about it a bit more - the ones screaming for border closures in Ireland are liberal leftys.

It's a beautifukl sight. (k intentional).

The beauty of Covid is that left/right politics is abolished

Left is freedom/ right is lockdown

Danno

glasso wrote: »

tobefrank is the border control man

the muppets who can't admit Sweden failed might all have as their core reason for not being able to admit that that they are against lockdowns in general but differ on other points like the border lol - e.g. the bould Fintan and Frank differ here

they are not even united in defeat

But have Sweden failed? What is your metric to declare that?

Here is a few lines of thought for you to attempt to refute.

* Every country imported Covid-19 though their porous borders.
* There was very little could be done about that early on as authorities scrambled to understand what they were dealing with.
* Following initial restrictions (which Sweden didn't adopt) international travel restrictions were quickly lifted in order to save travel insurance companies who lobbied governments to not cancel foreign travel so they wouldn't have to cream out.
* As covid is a seasonal virus, numbers dropped sharply until early Autumn when holidayers returned home to recommence the spread once more.
* Many EU nations scrambled AGAIN with lockdowns to halt seeded holidayer spread upon their return.
* Fast forward to Christmas - still not learning lessons from the late summer travel many EU nations fail to restrict travel even with newly identified variants emerging.
* Post Christmas Eve many EU nations implement another lockdown thinking the public are absolute fools in believing that lockdowns with open borders will kill Covid.

Ha Ha.

One thing about Sweden, they never locked their borders - their own downfall, but at least they never took their own citizens for absolute fools.

Danno

Danno wrote: »

But have Sweden failed? What is your metric to declare that?

Here is a few lines of thought for you to attempt to refute.

* Every country imported Covid-19 though their porous borders.
* There was very little could be done about that early on as authorities scrambled to understand what they were dealing with.
* Following initial restrictions (which Sweden didn't adopt) international travel restrictions were quickly lifted in order to save travel insurance companies who lobbied governments to not cancel foreign travel so they wouldn't have to cream out.
* As covid is a seasonal virus, numbers dropped sharply until early Autumn when holidayers returned home to recommence the spread once more.
* Many EU nations scrambled AGAIN with lockdowns to halt seeded holidayer spread upon their return.
* Fast forward to Christmas - still not learning lessons from the late summer travel many EU nations fail to restrict travel even with newly identified variants emerging.
* Post Christmas Eve many EU nations implement another lockdown thinking the public are absolute fools in believing that lockdowns with open borders will kill Covid.

Ha Ha.

One thing about Sweden, they never locked their borders - their own downfall, but at least they never took their own citizens for absolute fools.

Sweden has has its worst year in 2020 for excess deaths and excess mortality per capita in over 100 years

Norway it's land-border neighbour has had no excess mortality in 2020

pretty clear failure for Sweden.

couldn't give a flute about your travel insurance conspiracies to be honest

haha

Danno

glasso wrote: »

couldn't give a flute about your travel insurance conspiracies to be honest

haha

But we'd have damn near zero covid if the neolibs in power hadn't caved to their insurance buddy donors, ha ha. Guess the joke is on us schmucks.

Danno

Danno wrote: »

But we'd have damn near zero covid if the neolibs in power hadn't caved to their insurance buddy donors, ha ha. Guess the joke is on us schmucks.

oh deer

the tinfoil is strong here

Danno

glasso wrote: »

Sweden has has its worst year in 2020 for excess deaths and excess mortality per capita in over 100 years

What happened a 100 years ago then? Was it an iberian flu? Shock horror, history repeats. :rolleyes:

Danno

Danno wrote: »

What happened a 100 years ago then? Was it an iberian flu? Shock horror, history repeats. :rolleyes:

what was the neolib travel insurance company situation in Sweden in 1919?

they should have stopped the biplanes goddammit.

Danno

glasso wrote: »

oh deer

the tinfoil is strong here

Yup, she's the galvanised type. Love it, fits perfectly.

Have been round the block enough times to see how the cozy relationship between state and church/big business works.

Paid enough taxes to bail both out to drive it home.

You?

Still wet behind the ears to it all?

Danno

glasso wrote: »

what was the neolib travel insurance company situation in Sweden in 1919?

they should have stopped the biplanes goddammit.

Bank of "pick a placename out of your..."

Danno

glasso wrote: »

couldn't give a flute about your travel insurance conspiracies to be honest

haha

Happy paying 23% VAT after that fiasco?

That is what they said at the time.

You still believe your government has your interests at heart???

Like fook they do!!!

FintanMcluskey

glasso wrote: »

Sweden has has its worst year in 2020 for excess deaths and excess mortality per capita in over 100 years

Norway it's land-border neighbour has had no excess mortality in 2020

pretty clear failure for Sweden.

couldn't give a flute about your travel insurance conspiracies to be honest

haha

So Sweden can now only be compared to its nearest neighbours

Can we graph Sweden’s population over the last 100 years?

i've no clue what you're on about really

you're obviously a bit deranged

border control is obviously important when case numbers are low in a country and when importation of cases from abroad would materially increase the numbers and start new spreads

fear of new variants now also can play a role

but Sweden's primary differentiating factor was its internal light restrictions and herd immunity concept

this is the primary factor for its high excess mortality per capita and excess deaths in comparison to the other Nordics

and on that count it failed

that's why it tightened its restrictions in the light of that failure

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So Sweden can now only be compared to its nearest neighbours

Can we graph Sweden’s population over the last 100 years?

here's its excess mortality per capita and excess deaths over the last 100 years

Norway has negligible excess for 2020

Sweden's is the highest since the last pandemic

they failed 2020 in that light due to their light restrictions policy which they now have abandoned due to its failure

Danno

glasso wrote: »

this is the primary factor for its high excess mortality per capita and excess deaths in comparison to the other Nordics

and on that count it failed

But Sweden is a fully fledged open borders advocate of the EU!

Sweden suffered no less bad than Portugal, Spain, France, Italy etc... who had all implemented severe restrictions on their citizens. Sweden didn't crucify their own. Yet their mortality rate is not much different than those aforementioned states. Why is that?

If liberal Sweden had to curb or eliminate international travel and let the virus run out of ground last summer then they would have avoided the situation they are in now.

They kept re-importing the disease owing to open border policies!

It's a seasonal virus and if any nation wants to stop it, you close your borders. Then one of two things happen after that: you either eliminate it within, or you let it run rampant within - and you have to time that second-choice action with precision.

Sweden played both games and lost as in they expected the disease to hit critical mass without accounting for imported disease and it's variants.