Sweden avoiding lockdown

j@utis

the incredible pudding wrote: »

ICU numbers are down a good bit, as are the general daily rates of death and infection (though not a steep fall and it's gotten flatter, it's at least a lot better than Christmas).
Life hasn't changed much here other than alcohol not being served from 8pm and most shops having someone keep track of the number of people within (as there's now legal requirements per number of persons allowed per space of the place).
Mask wearers are still in the minority from what I've experienced, even on public transport during the times that they're now being "recommended".

Thank you so much for this posts! That's what I want to hear, i.e. about QUALITY of life in Sweden, not those pitiful posts clinging onto the deaths or excess deaths and failing to prove their point.

j@utis

j@utis wrote: »

Thank you so much for this posts! That's what I want to hear, i.e. about QUALITY of life in Sweden, not those pitiful posts clinging onto the deaths or excess deaths and failing to prove their point.

strange how some people were big followers of the 4th-class primary logic spreadsheets here but not once it became clear that Sweden had its worst excess mortality per capita and excess deaths in over 100 years

now the numbers are not appealing it seems....

whippet

Deleted User wrote: »

While this is regrettable, plenty of people in Ireland and all across Western Europe have had to bury their mothers, fathers, mother in laws etc too, and in many cases far more of them per head of population than Swedes have. And in Ireland we have spectacularly failed to protect our nursing homes, which we could have with simple measures like daily rapid antigen testing, focused protection, and earlier in the pandemic by controlling visits not moving patients from hospitals with COVID outbreaks into them - over 4000 of them, both measures overseen by NPHET and the HSE.

My 94 year old aunt contracted COVID in a nursing home, luckily she barely got sick, but several other residents died.

What's your point exactly?

What my point exactly is? Due to the lockdown in Ireland my mother is still alive - the same can’t be said for my brother’s mother in law in Sweden.

I have been in regular contact with him during the last year and there isn’t the same glowing approval of the Swedish government’s handling of this as there is from some on here who always seem to think the grass is greener.

His mother in law contracted the virus through the grandchild - who contracted it in school in January ... that chain of events couldn’t have happened in Ireland with the guidance and regulations.

so that is my point !

whippet

whippet wrote: »

What my point exactly is? Due to the lockdown in Ireland my mother is still alive - the same can’t be said for my brother’s mother in law in Sweden.

I have been in regular contact with him during the last year and there isn’t the same glowing approval of the Swedish government’s handling of this as there is from some on here who always seem to think the grass is greener.

His mother in law contracted the virus through the grandchild - who contracted it in school in January ... that chain of events couldn’t have happened in Ireland with the guidance and regulations.

so that is my point !

having somebody you know dying is unfortunately not good-enough a point if it contradicts their Sweden-policy-outcome agenda

my sympathies for your brother's family.

j@utis

glasso wrote: »

strange how some people were big followers of the 4th-class primary logic spreadsheets here but not once it became clear that Sweden had its worst excess mortality per capita and excess deaths in over 100 years

now the numbers are not appealing it seems....

It's was interesting to see the final numbers and so what? I still admire Swedish peoples' courage and determination.

greyday

j@utis wrote: »

It's was interesting to see the final numbers and so what? I still admire Swedish peoples' courage and determination.

That could also be described as lack of empathy for the elderly and vulnerable but each to their own.

j@utis

j@utis wrote: »

It's was interesting to see the final numbers and so what? I still admire Swedish peoples' courage and determination.

support in opinion polls for the government , public health policy and Tegnell was dropping significantly as of latest surveys as of mid-Dec (haven't seen newer ones to gauge any more recent trend even though they have had bad death figures since then)

https://fortune.com/2020/12/17/public-confidence-sweden-anders-tegnell-coronavirus/

Public confidence in Sweden’s controversial COVID-response architect ‘in a downward spiral’

thebaz

charlie14 wrote: »

It would depend on what you look on as horrific.
Sweden annual deaths 2019 were 88,766, For 2020 deaths were 97,741. A
10.4% increase.

Like every other country when there are large numbers in hospitals due to Covid, Sweden postpones many screening and surgical procedures..

Thanks for update , thankfully it is not as high as many predicted a few months back when I last checked . Given the newness and mystery of this virus, and how it effects different people differently , no country is going to escape mortality increases;
The secondary medical issues due to lockdown - increased alcoholism / mental health and other medical issues should be far less severe in Sweden, given society is far more open - I believe they are asking its people to behave in a social distance manner , and I would expect its people are behaving so.

charlie14

j@utis wrote: »

It's was interesting to see the final numbers and so what? I still admire Swedish peoples' courage and determination.

So is this going to be the latest spin on Tegnell, Giesecke and the Public Health Authority strategy, courage and determined ?


They were certainly determined to keep going with naturally acquired herd immunity as late as October when it was plain to see it had failed. But then it is easy to be courageous with other peoples lives.

Tegnell even had to admit after the regional authorities finally put a stop to it that attempting it was immoral. It didn`t just suddenly become immoral. It was as immoral the first day he and the rest of that PHA crew dreamt it up as the day he finally admitted it.

j@utis

greyday wrote: »

That could also be described as lack of empathy for the elderly and vulnerable but each to their own.

Millions of children die worldwide every year from preventable causes but we don't feel the same about them because... we lack empathy or that they're not covid deaths? the human nature is simply that we primarily care about our closest ones, and we knew long time ago how to keep them safe and keep doing so. Swedish governments' approach is very similar to ours - leave it in the hands of people just in the different manner.

charlie14

thebaz wrote: »

Thanks for update , thankfully it is not as high as many predicted a few months back when I last checked . Given the newness and mystery of this virus, and how it effects different people differently , no country is going to escape mortality increases;
The secondary medical issues due to lockdown - increased alcoholism / mental health and other medical issues should be far less severe in Sweden, given society is far more open - I believe they are asking its people to behave in a social distance manner , and I would expect its people are behaving so.

No problem, but any predictions I saw on this thread, (my own included) were that Sweden`s excess deaths would be much lower than 10.4%.
Some even predicted they would be lower than 2019 or 2018.

Not sure no countries are going to escape mortality increases, especially in Northern Europe. For 2020 Norway has.

It is more or less speculation on what you term secondary medical issues, but when there is severe pressure on health systems due to a primary medical issue it`s an unfortunate fact of life that secondary medical issues become just that. Secondary medical issues.

thebaz

charlie14 wrote: »

They were certainly determined to keep going with naturally acquired herd immunity as late as October when it was plain to see it had failed. But then it is easy to be courageous with other peoples lives.

As said I have been out of the Covid media loop, but are people not saying India has reached herd immunity ?

Having been to India a few times , I expected India to have been really devastated by Covid, and it appears to have escaped the horror many expected last summer.

charlie14

j@utis wrote: »

Millions of children die worldwide every year from preventable causes but we don't feel the same about them because... we lack empathy or that they're not covid deaths? the human nature is simply that we primarily care about our closest ones, and we knew long time ago how to keep them safe and keep doing so. Swedish governments' approach is very similar to ours - leave it in the hands of people just in the different manner.

Our government has not left our approach in the hands of people for the very same reason that Sweden are no longer doing either.

Simply because there are a cohort that do not give a toss for the welfare of anyone other than themselves.

mcsean2163

Neighbor moving to Switzerland. Apparently restrictions are similar to Sweden in Switzerland.

I wonder what our plan is. We're well into February, is there any sign of us reopening? Will children be allowed to go to school play sport etc.?

Maybe Sweden accidentally got it right?

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

As said I have been out of the Covid media loop, but are people not saying India has reached herd immunity ?

Having been to India a few times , I expected India to have been really devastated by Covid, and it appears to have escaped the horror many expected last summer.

it's not conclusive re herd immunity there but it may be possible

India has only 6.5% of its population over 65 compared to about 20% in Europe so the consequences for mass-spread are wildly different

The reported cases and deaths in India are only a fraction of the actual it's said

https://www.ft.com/content/07988f31-d511-4af4-8b78-03ecaf2d4df7

there's also speculation there that they had a relatively benign variant and that the general unhygienic nature of the place may have been an advantage

Some experts also point to environmental factors that affect immune systems — although the scientists emphasise this hypothesis needs more serious study. “We are seeing a lot less severe disease than the rest of the world, and a lot more asymptomatic infections,” says microbiologist Gagandeep Kang, who was involved in India’s drive to produce a coronavirus vaccine. “Part of the reason might be prior exposure to lots of other pathogens.”

“We live in an environment where we are exposed to all kinds of pathogens all the time and we learn not to react too much,” she adds.

India does very little viral sequencing that would allow scientists to monitor the particular variant of the disease that is prevalent in the country, something the government is now trying to correct. But Kerala-based health economist Rijo John suggests India has so far seen a less virulent strain than elsewhere.

“It’s pretty generally accepted that in India, we have a very mild form of the virus,” he says. “But the future is hard to predict.” 

there is still caution around re-opening workplaces and schools though

thebaz

glasso wrote: »

there's also speculation there that they had a relatively benign variant and that the general unhygienic nature of the place may have been an advantage

Thanks - kind of makes sense , everyone says never drink the water , one day I accidently did parched in the heat and had no reaction - but I nearly got Rabies , thats another story. Also hardly any obesity in India, and the virus seams to thrive in colder weather.

charlie14

thebaz wrote: »

As said I have been out of the Covid media loop, but are people not saying India has reached herd immunity ?

Having been to India a few times , I expected India to have been really devastated by Covid, and it appears to have escaped the horror many expected last summer.

There was speculation on, Delhi I believe it was, but from antibody test results posted here not long ago, it looked unlikely.


I did see back in August a research paper claiming Manaus Brazil had achieved it with an infection rate of 76% from blood-bank antibody tests.
A few days after publication Manaus had to go back into lockdown due to rising case numbers. The Economist Jan 23rd had a a report on it titled.
" Brazilian city thought it had herd immunity. It was wrong". "A second wave of covid-19 overwhelmed the biggest city in the Amazon"

charlie14

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Neighbor moving to Switzerland. Apparently restrictions are similar to Sweden in Switzerland.

I wonder what our plan is. We're well into February, is there any sign of us reopening? Will children be allowed to go to school play sport etc.?

Maybe Sweden accidentally got it right?

If they got anything accidentally right, it does not look as if it was primary schools.
Like everywhere else, in Sweden doctors and nurses were the highest effected profession with 5,000 cases per 100,000. Primary school teachers were 4,227 per 100,000.

sheepysheep

charlie14 wrote: »

You went nitpicking through my posts and accused me of not understanding the difference between IFR and CFR.


I replied to that, (highlighted above). A reply you have copy and pasted here a number of times but mysteriously with the question mark removed each time.
Any explaination for that ? ( btw in case you are not aware ? denotes a question mark.

And now after all the copy and pasting you do not want to discuss it.
From that I can only assume you have no answer to the question, or you are very aware of the mathematical goobbledygook IFR is.

I have no interest in discussing IFR or CFR with you as you have repeatedly shown you haven't an iota what either is.

Here again is the WHO scientific brief on both CFR and IFR calculations.

https://www.who.int/news-room/commen...-from-covid-19

And here is a quote.

The true severity of a disease can be described by the Infection Fatality Ratio:

And here's you again describing this as goobdlegook.

From that I can only assume you have no answer to the question, or you are very aware of the mathematical goobbledygook IFR is.

It's actually staggering that you continue down this line and that a year into the pandemic you still don't know the importance of this figure.

Your issue is with established WHO standard practice for calculating the severity of an infectious disease. Take it up with them.

I merely highlighted this gobbledygook to reveal how disingenuous you are.

You're just prepared to make up stuff to justify your opinions.

sheepysheep

charlie14 wrote: »

You have also been quite mouthy of me being anti science and vaccines.

Laughable from someone who did such a forensic trawl of my posts where from the beginning of this thread and others including, the vaccination thread, I have made it very clear as far as I was concerned the only way out of this was through vaccines.
Doubly laughable from someone who has backed Sweden`s scientifically immoral strategy of naturally acquired herd immunity and their position on face masks. A position that was at variance with the advice of their own Royal Academy of Science and their premier research institute, the Karolinska Institute. Even when that institute had mandated face masks for all staff and students.
And you call me a strawman poster

Don't flatter yourself. No forensic trawl necessary. I merely used the search function for 'malaria'. Took 10 seconds.

I remembered this because it was such a trollish statement, even amongst yours.

Again, as pointed out before you invented a vaccine for malaria as well as claiming that it was on the verge of eradication. Feel free to post your scientific research basis for such claims or just come clean and admit that you made it up to suit your agenda, whatever that was.

As I said before, someone who is a 'fan' of science doesn't pollute the narrative with fake data, only seeking to confuse people. That's a well established alt-right fake news ploy.

I'm sure some of your alt-right chums considered it 'nitpicking' when someone points out that the Bills Gates Vaccine conspiracy is bananas, but it's not nitpicking it's just debunking BS

You requested evidence that you make stuff up to embellish your case, and I've provided it .Deal with it.

biko

Out of the 16000 dead in the Nordic countries* 12500 have happened in Sweden.


*Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, and the Aland Islands.

DylanJM

biko wrote: »

Out of the 16000 dead in the Nordic countries* 12500 have happened in Sweden.


*Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, and the Aland Islands.

Why are Sweden only ever compared to their neighbors? How do they stack up against the rest of the EU?

tommybrees

Love this, remember watching TV ads for People starving in Africa and millionaire celebrities clicking there hands ever 5 seconds to say there's another kid dead, all because of a lack of food. Where was people's will to solve this.
You think wrecking people's mental health, tyranny government, business going bust and our constitutional rights being thrown away just so Mary or Paddy that's in a nursing home, which have the best PPE and measures anyway and seems to be doing **** all use, dying of old age or some other UNDERLINING CONDITION is worth it. Cop on.
I was in Dunnes today shopping and if its safe enough to be round literally a hundred other people in there then it should be safe enough for me to go for a walk further than 5km from my home

DylanJM

DylanJM wrote: »

Why are Sweden only ever compared to their neighbors? How do they stack up against the rest of the EU?

As if this hasn't been answered twenty times?

Because Sweden is in Northern Europe. Crossover with Scandinavia and the Nordics.

Denmark, Norway and Finland are the most relevant comparators.

They are geographically and culturally similar. politics also. demographically. genetically (aside from the immigrants). economically even (Norway has oil, the others don't).

If it suits your agenda to make Sweden's numbers look better by comparing them with Bulgaria or whatever nobody is going to stop you anyway.

TonyMaloney

DylanJM wrote: »

Why are Sweden only ever compared to their neighbors? How do they stack up against the rest of the EU?

Very badly.

I'm on my phone right now so can't post graphs, but unsurprisingly Sweden is far worse than the european average in terms of deaths.

Bit cynical

DylanJM wrote: »

How do they stack up against the rest of the EU?

This is the crucial question. Currently the are about 6% above the EU average. This gap is narrowing at the moment and so they will probably end up with fewer deaths per capita than the EU generally.

Bit cynical

Bit cynical wrote: »

This is the crucial question. Currently the are about 6% above the EU average. This gap is narrowing at the moment and so they will probably end up with fewer deaths per capita than the EU generally.

the crucial question mi bollix :pac:

Bit cynical

glasso wrote: »

the crucial question mi bollix :pac:

What in your opinion then is the important question?

it has already been answered.

Sweden in relation to its most relevant comparators - for reasons - see above post.

Categorically stating that "the crucial question" is otherwise is mere "I categorically state that the crucial question is" tactics.

FintanMcluskey

DylanJM wrote: »

Why are Sweden only ever compared to their neighbors? How do they stack up against the rest of the EU?

Because it’s the last grasp at an argument that isn’t supported by the figures.


Sweden is about mid table EU death rate