Sweden avoiding lockdown

PintOfView

patnor1011 wrote: »

I am not clinging to anything and what you implied came from your head not mine. I never said anything like that or even mentioned vaccines so stop being dishonest trying to put words in my mouth.

Ivermectin was being used extensively in India as a treatment and was advised to use as a prophylactic too. Pick your fight with Indian health body or their experts and explain to them they are wrong.
It is not used in a few areas in India, it is rather not used in few areas and they do have higher mortality and cases compared to areas where it is used. Easily verifiable facts.

You're suggesting it's fairly clear that Ivermectin is working, and that this is easily verifiable!

When I looked up ivermectin it seems to have mixed reviews, with no trials yet showing conclusive results.
Can you link to the ones that you found that mention it is extensively used in India, and
where it mentions that the areas using it have lower mortality?

ghostfacekilla

Economy back to pre-pandemic levels according to the Irish times. Some of the lax and not so often adhered to restrictions were lifted June 1st. Vaccinating anyone 40 or over in Stockholm currently. The end is in sight perhaps without a hard lockdown.
I don’t think many here care too much about the deaths. An unfortunate but necessary sacrifice for the greater society.

patnor1011

charlie14 wrote: »

Actually that I did find strange. No mention whatsoever of vaccines by you, just Ivermectin.
Are you implying that you believe Ivermectin is more effective than vaccines for the prevention of serious illness and deaths ?

This is the same India health body that believed they had achieved herd immunity, so with no data on Ivermectin having any ability to prevent infection, if I was asking them any question it would be why the world`s largest manufacturer of vaccines by June 5th. had just 13% of its population having received their first dose and just 3.3% being fully vaccinated.

I am not implying anything. I do not compare ivermectin to vaccines, you do.
What I have said is coming from India which decided to use it as a treatment and as a prevention too. Since they do it for some time and are quite populous countries whatever they come with will be interesting material to study.
Quite promising and positive outcome so far.

Quote from article about ivermectin use in India
****************
While ivermectin is yet to be approved as a treatment for COVID-19, doctors around the world, including in the United States, are offering the drug to their patients. And for doctors who refuse to administer the drug to patients suffering severe COVID-19, judges have had to order them to do so.

In their legal notice, the Indian Bar Association cited the case of 80-year-old Judith Smentkiewicz, who made a full recovery after being on a ventilator and told she only had a 20 percent chance of survival. Her family obtained a court order that allowed her to receive additional doses of ivermectin after doctors were hesitant to give her more than one dose, according to Buffalo News.

Smentkiewic’s family and attorneys say they believe that ivermectin saved her life.

Ivermectin is on the WHO’s list of essential medicines and has a high safety profile with more than 3.7 billion doses having been distributed in over 30 years.

Since the drug was first given to humans in 1987, there have only been 4,600 adverse events and 16 deaths reported on the pharmacovigilance database, according to Dr. Tess Lawrie in an interview on March 6. Lawrie is director of Evidence-based Medicine Consultancy Ltd. and co-founder of the BIRD panel, which includes international expert scientists and doctors who are advocating for the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19.

Remdesivir, an anti-viral drug, is the only FDA-approved therapy for treating hospitalized COVID-19 patients. The drug has shown no effect on mortality and a minuscule benefit on time of recovery that even the WHO has recommended against its use last November.

A treatment course of remdesivir is a little over $3,000, while ivermectin ranges between $3 to $12 a treatment, according to Kory.

He also said that places in India where ivermectin is used preventatively or as early treatment, such as Goa and Uttar Pradesh, are seeing COVID-19 cases declining versus states that have banned the drug.

“Every one of those states, the curves are now precipitously declining,” said Kory.

“But there’s a state in India called Tamil Nadu whose minister there basically effectively outlawed ivermectin and went all-in on remdesivir, bought a whole bunch of remdesivir, [and] the cases and deaths in that state are skyrocketing,” he added.

The Epoch Times has reached out to the chief minister in Tamil Nadu for comment.

According to data by the Johns Hopkins University Center for Systems Science and Engineering, Tamil Nadu saw 20,421 new cases and 434 deaths on June 6, while Goa recorded 403 new cases and 16 deaths, and Uttar Pradesh reported 1,037 cases and 85 deaths.

Uttar Pradesh, one of the most populous states in India with over 200 million people, has been handing out free medical kits containing seven days’ worth of medication, one of which is ivermectin, for COVID-19 positive patients under home isolation.
****************

Denying ivermectin efficiency do not sit well with quite a lot of doctors, scientists and lawyers in India too.
****************
The Indian Bar Association has taken legal action against the World Health Organization’s (WHO) Chief Scientist Dr. Soumya Swaminathan for her alleged role in spreading disinformation on the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19.
The association served a legal notice (pdf) on Swaminathan on May 25, claiming that she was “spreading disinformation and misguiding the people of India, in order to fulfill her agenda” and sought to prevent her from “causing further damage.”

They further say that Swaminathan, in her statements against the use of ivermectin, ignored research and clinical trials from two organizations - the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care (FLCCC) Alliance and the British Ivermectin Recommendation Development (BIRD) - who have presented solid data showing ivermectin prevents and treats COVID-19.

“Dr. Soumya Swaminathan has ignored these studies/reports and has deliberately suppressed the data regarding effectiveness of the drug Ivermectin, with an intent to dissuade the people of India from using Ivermectin,” the plaintiff said in a statement (pdf).

In a May 10 tweet that has since been deleted after the notice was issued, Swaminathan wrote, “Safety and efficacy are important when using any drug for a new indication. WHO recommends against the use of ivermectin for COVID-19 except within clinical trials.”

Swaminathan made the Twitter post soon after Goa’s health minister announced that every Goa resident 18 and older would be given ivermectin as prevention regardless of their COVID-19 status, as part of the state government’s effort to stop the transmission of the virus. India has been hit hard in the second wave of the virus pandemic beginning in March 2021.

The legal notice calls for a clear response from Swaminathan on a number of key points, and the association said that in the case of a failure to provide a clear response, it reserves the right to initiate prosecution under sections of the Indian Penal Code and Disaster Management Act, 2005.

The WHO’s chief scientist didn’t reply to a request for comment.
A link to Merck’s statement on ivermectin was also included in Swaminathan’s tweet. The pharmaceutical company that developed the anti-parasitic drug in the 1980s and held a patent until 1996 said in February of this year that the available data did not support the efficacy and safety of ivermectin beyond what the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) had approved it for.

Merck, in collaboration with Ridgeback Biotherapeutics, is conducting a Phase 3 trial of an investigational anti-viral drug molnupiravir, which the company says has shown to reduce infectious viruses quicker in COVID-19 outpatients. But unlike ivermectin, molnupiravir demonstrated no clinical benefit in hospitalized patients.

The trial is expected to complete later this October and Merck said it will apply for an emergency authorization use for the drug if results are favorable.

Researchers are hoping that molnupiravir will impair the virus’s ability to replicate so as to prevent severe illness and hospitalization, something that ivermectin has demonstrated to do in a meta-analysis of 57 clinical trials involving more than 18,000 patients, according to ivmmeta.com, a website that provides real-time meta-analysis of ivermectin studies.

In 23 early treatment studies, there was a 78 percent improvement in patients given ivermectin, and in 14 preventative trials, an 85 percent improvement was shown. As for the studies involving late treatment, there was a 45 percent improvement in 20 studies.

Proponents of ivermectin say the drug can treat all stages of COVID-19 and reduce hospitalization and mortality rates due to its anti-viral and anti-inflammatory properties. But there has been pushback on approving the drug as a COVID-19 treatment by the United States federal health authorities and the WHO.

The FDA says it hasn’t approved ivermectin for COVID-19 and issued a warning in early March informing people to not take the drug meant for animals, as the larger doses intended for animals may be harmful to humans.

While the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the largest medical research agency, is neither recommending for or against using ivermectin to treat COVID-19 in its updated guideline in February. This comes after members of the FLCCC Alliance presented their data to the agency at the beginning of the year.

In April, the NIH announced it would fund a large randomized, controlled study of seven repurposed drugs to treat mild to moderate COVID-19 patients. The research agency said it will begin enrolling for its Phase 3 trial on ivermectin this month.

“Trial enrollment is expected to open this month, and the trial is expected to run for up to 2 years,” an NIH spokesperson told The Epoch Times via email.

The WHO, in its Living Guideline, has advised against the use of ivermectin except in a clinical setting, citing inconclusive data similar to both the FDA and the NIH.

“The current evidence on the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19 patients is inconclusive,” the WHO said in a press release.

“Until more data is available, WHO recommends that the drug only be used within clinical trials.”

Dr. Pierre Kory, President and Chief Medical Officer of the FLCCC Alliance claims there is a concerted effort to censor information on the effectiveness of ivermectin against COVID-19, a disease caused by the virus.

“There are forces that are seeking to make sure that ivermectin is not accepted widely as an effective therapy,” Kory said in an interview on June 1.

“We have randomized [trials], you have observational [studies], you have case series, you have epidemiologic analyses, and then the clinical experience of doctors. You can’t find a doctor who has incorporated ivermectin into their treatments who will come back and say my patients didn’t get better, you can’t find that doctor,” he added.
**************************

patnor1011

PintOfView wrote: »

You're suggesting it's fairly clear that Ivermectin is working, and that this is easily verifiable!

When I looked up ivermectin it seems to have mixed reviews, with no trials yet showing conclusive results.
Can you link to the ones that you found that mention it is extensively used in India, and
where it mentions that the areas using it have lower mortality?

Article excerpts in previous post.

PintOfView

patnor1011 wrote: »

Article excerpts in previous post.

The article excerpts seem to come from the Epoch Times (possibly behind a pay wall!).

If those excerpts do come from the Epoch Times then the following needs to be kept in mind: (from wikipedia)
"The Epoch Times opposes the Chinese Communist Party,
promotes far-right politicians in Europe,
and has backed President Donald Trump in the U.S.;
a 2019 report by NBC News showed it to be the second-largest funder of pro-Trump Facebook advertising after the Trump campaign.
The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccine misinformation.
In 2020, the New York Times called it a "global-scale misinformation machine".
"

From that I would be wary of what they say, as it may be biased, or wrong, and is unlikely to be balanced!

As regards what they say about ivermectin, in the excerpts you quote, it's food for thought, if what they say checks out.
In the other information I found about ivermectin it did have mixed results, with some possible benefits
but without verification by a properly controlled trial.

It looks like the jury is out on it, with some large trials ongoing.
I think it's a bit early to start proclaiming it's a miracle cure until its safety and effectiveness are verified.
The EMA and WHO, etc., are asking people to only take ivermectin as part of clinical trials.
There must be a reason they are all taking the same line (and I don't believe the reason is some global conspiracy!)

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

If you're thinking of my posting then I'm not referring to recent posts but to posts over the course of the thread.

I can't quote back to the posters' posts as I had to put 2 of the more annoying ones on "ignore".

But just to give an idea- back in Feb this year you had posters on here who were equating those who were pro Sweden's approach with Gemma O'Doherty. There's only so much one can take, I rarely (if ever) put a poster on "ignore" but on thread about Sweden (!?) I found myself having to do it to 2 just to be able to read through the thread properly.

Right, so you were doing exactly what I claimed - making crass generalisations to create a strawman that no-one could debunk.

Also, it was only one user doing the Gemma thing - Glasso posted it a handful of times in early February and then never brought it up again.

https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?thread=2058069294&query=gemma&user=&date_from=&date_to=
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116150902&postcount=8219

If your contributions are largely based on strawmen arguments, I'd suggest you take a longer look at them and perhaps re-evaluate how you approach the topic.

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

I am not implying anything. I do not compare ivermectin to vaccines, you do.
What I have said is coming from India which decided to use it as a treatment and as a prevention too. Since they do it for some time and are quite populous countries whatever they come with will be interesting material to study.
Quite promising and positive outcome so far.

Quote from article about ivermectin use in India
****************
While ivermectin is yet to be approved as a treatment for COVID-19, doctors around the world, including in the United States, are offering the drug to their patients. And for doctors who refuse to administer the drug to patients suffering severe COVID-19, judges have had to order them to do so.

In their legal notice, the Indian Bar Association cited the case of 80-year-old Judith Smentkiewicz, who made a full recovery after being on a ventilator and told she only had a 20 percent chance of survival. Her family obtained a court order that allowed her to receive additional doses of ivermectin after doctors were hesitant to give her more than one dose, according to Buffalo News.

Smentkiewic’s family and attorneys say they believe that ivermectin saved her life.

Ivermectin is on the WHO’s list of essential medicines and has a high safety profile with more than 3.7 billion doses having been distributed in over 30 years.

Since the drug was first given to humans in 1987, there have only been 4,600 adverse events and 16 deaths reported on the pharmacovigilance database, according to Dr. Tess Lawrie in an interview on March 6. Lawrie is director of Evidence-based Medicine Consultancy Ltd. and co-founder of the BIRD panel, which includes international expert scientists and doctors who are advocating for the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19.

Remdesivir, an anti-viral drug, is the only FDA-approved therapy for treating hospitalized COVID-19 patients. The drug has shown no effect on mortality and a minuscule benefit on time of recovery that even the WHO has recommended against its use last November.

A treatment course of remdesivir is a little over $3,000, while ivermectin ranges between $3 to $12 a treatment, according to Kory.

He also said that places in India where ivermectin is used preventatively or as early treatment, such as Goa and Uttar Pradesh, are seeing COVID-19 cases declining versus states that have banned the drug.

“Every one of those states, the curves are now precipitously declining,” said Kory.

“But there’s a state in India called Tamil Nadu whose minister there basically effectively outlawed ivermectin and went all-in on remdesivir, bought a whole bunch of remdesivir, [and] the cases and deaths in that state are skyrocketing,” he added.

The Epoch Times has reached out to the chief minister in Tamil Nadu for comment.

According to data by the Johns Hopkins University Center for Systems Science and Engineering, Tamil Nadu saw 20,421 new cases and 434 deaths on June 6, while Goa recorded 403 new cases and 16 deaths, and Uttar Pradesh reported 1,037 cases and 85 deaths.

Uttar Pradesh, one of the most populous states in India with over 200 million people, has been handing out free medical kits containing seven days’ worth of medication, one of which is ivermectin, for COVID-19 positive patients under home isolation.
****************

Denying ivermectin efficiency do not sit well with quite a lot of doctors, scientists and lawyers in India too.
****************
The Indian Bar Association has taken legal action against the World Health Organization’s (WHO) Chief Scientist Dr. Soumya Swaminathan for her alleged role in spreading disinformation on the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19.
The association served a legal notice (pdf) on Swaminathan on May 25, claiming that she was “spreading disinformation and misguiding the people of India, in order to fulfill her agenda” and sought to prevent her from “causing further damage.”

They further say that Swaminathan, in her statements against the use of ivermectin, ignored research and clinical trials from two organizations - the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care (FLCCC) Alliance and the British Ivermectin Recommendation Development (BIRD) - who have presented solid data showing ivermectin prevents and treats COVID-19.

“Dr. Soumya Swaminathan has ignored these studies/reports and has deliberately suppressed the data regarding effectiveness of the drug Ivermectin, with an intent to dissuade the people of India from using Ivermectin,” the plaintiff said in a statement (pdf).

In a May 10 tweet that has since been deleted after the notice was issued, Swaminathan wrote, “Safety and efficacy are important when using any drug for a new indication. WHO recommends against the use of ivermectin for COVID-19 except within clinical trials.”

Swaminathan made the Twitter post soon after Goa’s health minister announced that every Goa resident 18 and older would be given ivermectin as prevention regardless of their COVID-19 status, as part of the state government’s effort to stop the transmission of the virus. India has been hit hard in the second wave of the virus pandemic beginning in March 2021.

The legal notice calls for a clear response from Swaminathan on a number of key points, and the association said that in the case of a failure to provide a clear response, it reserves the right to initiate prosecution under sections of the Indian Penal Code and Disaster Management Act, 2005.

The WHO’s chief scientist didn’t reply to a request for comment.
A link to Merck’s statement on ivermectin was also included in Swaminathan’s tweet. The pharmaceutical company that developed the anti-parasitic drug in the 1980s and held a patent until 1996 said in February of this year that the available data did not support the efficacy and safety of ivermectin beyond what the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) had approved it for.

Merck, in collaboration with Ridgeback Biotherapeutics, is conducting a Phase 3 trial of an investigational anti-viral drug molnupiravir, which the company says has shown to reduce infectious viruses quicker in COVID-19 outpatients. But unlike ivermectin, molnupiravir demonstrated no clinical benefit in hospitalized patients.

The trial is expected to complete later this October and Merck said it will apply for an emergency authorization use for the drug if results are favorable.

Researchers are hoping that molnupiravir will impair the virus’s ability to replicate so as to prevent severe illness and hospitalization, something that ivermectin has demonstrated to do in a meta-analysis of 57 clinical trials involving more than 18,000 patients, according to ivmmeta.com, a website that provides real-time meta-analysis of ivermectin studies.

In 23 early treatment studies, there was a 78 percent improvement in patients given ivermectin, and in 14 preventative trials, an 85 percent improvement was shown. As for the studies involving late treatment, there was a 45 percent improvement in 20 studies.

Proponents of ivermectin say the drug can treat all stages of COVID-19 and reduce hospitalization and mortality rates due to its anti-viral and anti-inflammatory properties. But there has been pushback on approving the drug as a COVID-19 treatment by the United States federal health authorities and the WHO.

The FDA says it hasn’t approved ivermectin for COVID-19 and issued a warning in early March informing people to not take the drug meant for animals, as the larger doses intended for animals may be harmful to humans.

While the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the largest medical research agency, is neither recommending for or against using ivermectin to treat COVID-19 in its updated guideline in February. This comes after members of the FLCCC Alliance presented their data to the agency at the beginning of the year.

In April, the NIH announced it would fund a large randomized, controlled study of seven repurposed drugs to treat mild to moderate COVID-19 patients. The research agency said it will begin enrolling for its Phase 3 trial on ivermectin this month.

“Trial enrollment is expected to open this month, and the trial is expected to run for up to 2 years,” an NIH spokesperson told The Epoch Times via email.

The WHO, in its Living Guideline, has advised against the use of ivermectin except in a clinical setting, citing inconclusive data similar to both the FDA and the NIH.

“The current evidence on the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19 patients is inconclusive,” the WHO said in a press release.

“Until more data is available, WHO recommends that the drug only be used within clinical trials.”

Dr. Pierre Kory, President and Chief Medical Officer of the FLCCC Alliance claims there is a concerted effort to censor information on the effectiveness of ivermectin against COVID-19, a disease caused by the virus.

“There are forces that are seeking to make sure that ivermectin is not accepted widely as an effective therapy,” Kory said in an interview on June 1.

“We have randomized [trials], you have observational [studies], you have case series, you have epidemiologic analyses, and then the clinical experience of doctors. You can’t find a doctor who has incorporated ivermectin into their treatments who will come back and say my patients didn’t get better, you can’t find that doctor,” he added.
**************************

1. I really do not have the time to go through every state in India with you.
2. this is a thread in relation to Sweden and as such Sweden are using vaccines not Ivermectin to lower case numbers, reduce the numbers in hospitals and ICU`s. So perhaps you should consider opening your own thread on India and Ivermectin.

I have no problem with India using this drug in the treatment of Covid patients even though the World Health Organisation advises it should only be used to treat Covid-19 within medical trials.
I do have a problem where it is being handed out as a drug that is purported to prevents infections where there is little or no data from large scale clinical trials, similar to vaccine trials, to back this up.
I find that not just dangerous, but from medical authorities, unethical.

Dr. Em

This thread has gotten pretty far from discussing the measures Sweden has taken to the pandemic. It is quite a surprising turn to the occasional visitor to this thread.

TomSweeney

Sweden got it right ..


https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=sweden+covid+data

//thread

humberklog

TomSweeney wrote: »

Sweden got it right ..


https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=sweden+covid+data

//thread

Dunno about getting it right Tom. Their infection per/m is pretty high. One in Ten of the population which puts them in about 11 place worldwide.

But their Deaths per/m aren't too bad which is surprising as they got off to a very sloppy start and racked up some spooky numbers in particular with their elderly and immigrant population.

I found that video of the English guy in Sweden previously posted to be very good at explaining the restrictions Sweden eventually imposed.
They struct me as reasonable measures and they look to have been effective.

patnor1011

charlie14 wrote: »

1. I really do not have the time to go through every state in India with you.
2. this is a thread in relation to Sweden and as such Sweden are using vaccines not Ivermectin to lower case numbers, reduce the numbers in hospitals and ICU`s. So perhaps you should consider opening your own thread on India and Ivermectin.

I have no problem with India using this drug in the treatment of Covid patients even though the World Health Organisation advises it should only be used to treat Covid-19 within medical trials.
I do have a problem where it is being handed out as a drug that is purported to prevents infections where there is little or no data from large scale clinical trials, similar to vaccine trials, to back this up.
I find that not just dangerous, but from medical authorities, unethical.

I agree, thread is about Sweden. What play biggest role is most likely that they had so many cases a lot of them simply gained natural immunity.
I wont be mixing India and their Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine approach the only thing I would add is that you may not be aware that when SARS happened, the CDC in the USA approved HCQ as a "safe and effective" treatment against the virus...
Which probably also explains why the tremendous SARS epidemic fizzled and sputtered out after a few months. Not happening now despite covid being not much different from SARS. Suddenly proven methods are out of window and most of the people know why that is happening.

PintOfView

patnor1011 wrote: »

I agree, thread is about Sweden. What play biggest role is most likely that they had so many cases a lot of them simply gained natural immunity.
I wont be mixing India and their Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine approach the only thing I would add is that you may not be aware that when SARS happened, the CDC in the USA approved HCQ as a "safe and effective" treatment against the virus...
Which probably also explains why the tremendous SARS epidemic fizzled and sputtered out after a few months. Not happening now despite covid being not much different from SARS. Suddenly proven methods are out of window and most of the people know why that is happening.

Can you explain what you mean by "most of the people know why that is happening"?

Lumen

patnor1011 wrote: »

I agree, thread is about Sweden. What play biggest role is most likely that they had so many cases a lot of them simply gained natural immunity.
I wont be mixing India and their Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine approach the only thing I would add is that you may not be aware that when SARS happened, the CDC in the USA approved HCQ as a "safe and effective" treatment against the virus...
Which probably also explains why the tremendous SARS epidemic fizzled and sputtered out after a few months. Not happening now despite covid being not much different from SARS. Suddenly proven methods are out of window and most of the people know why that is happening.

This is complete nonsense.

SARS and COVID-19 are significantly different, most significantly C19 is more transmissible because peak viral loads occur much earlier than SARS, including before onset of symptoms.

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

I agree, thread is about Sweden. What play biggest role is most likely that they had so many cases a lot of them simply gained natural immunity.
I wont be mixing India and their Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine approach the only thing I would add is that you may not be aware that when SARS happened, the CDC in the USA approved HCQ as a "safe and effective" treatment against the virus...
Which probably also explains why the tremendous SARS epidemic fizzled and sputtered out after a few months. Not happening now despite covid being not much different from SARS. Suddenly proven methods are out of window and most of the people know why that is happening.

What is playing the biggest role in Sweden like everywhere else is vaccines.
The high levels of immunity due to high case numbers went out the window May 2020 when Sweden`s antibody test results became known and when Manaus had to go back into lockdown late 2021 after believing from high seroprevalence figures they had achieved natural herd immunity.
If any further proof was needed then the massive spike in case numbers from their latest surge show that. High case numbers that thankfully did not result in corresponding high mortality levels due to vaccines.

But then proof of vaccines and the negligible value of natural herd immunity in combating this pandemic are not what you want to hear or acknowledge.
With your constant pushing of your alternatives you are just coming across as an antivaxxer and a conspiracy theorist with your "most people know why that is happening

patnor1011

charlie14 wrote: »

What is playing the biggest role in Sweden like everywhere else is vaccines.
The high levels of immunity due to high case numbers went out the window May 2020 when Sweden`s antibody test results became known and when Manaus had to go back into lockdown late 2021 after believing from high seroprevalence figures they had achieved natural herd immunity.
If any further proof was needed then the massive spike in case numbers from their latest surge show that. High case numbers that thankfully did not result in corresponding high mortality levels due to vaccines.

But then proof of vaccines and the negligible value of natural herd immunity in combating this pandemic are not what you want to hear or acknowledge.
With your constant pushing of your alternatives you are just coming across as an antivaxxer and a conspiracy theorist with your "most people know why that is happening

Excuse me. This accusation and name throwing is old smear tactic and simply do not work anymore. I can assure you I have had more vaccines than you can ever imagine of getting simply because I came from a country with robust and mandatory vaccination program. I have absolutely nothing against any vaccines. Yet for some reason you scream antivaxx like it was some magical word.
Case is fairly simple. This pandemic outcome turned out to be far from predictions thrown out at the start of it and from the look of it treating affected people simply become not that important due to low mortality or overall effect on population. Mostly already very sick people were affected so focus shifted from possible treatment to some hypothetical prevention which by the way is not possible anyway. Mortality decreased because the most vulnerable people already died while majority of cases did not even developed any symptoms or problems, their immune system managed to deal with this virus without them even knowing something is happening. I have seen it with my very own eyes when we had few outbreaks at my work place.

It is economics pure and simple. Possible treatment with cheap and readily available remedies are thrown out or dismissed as not working while expensive therapies or experimental treatments are being pushed as a way out. We hear about this and that new drug all the while we refuse to acknowledge that place where virus started dealt with it quite fast with a help of proven, cheap and quite safe remedies and medications.
Take vitamin D for example which china brought by truckloads to affected regions and even our own scientists found a link between most severe cases being identified as people with vitamin D deficiency. No conspiracy here but science.

SeaBreezes

TomSweeney wrote: »

Sweden got it right ..


https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=sweden+covid+data

//thread

I dunno..
https://twitter.com/WrongAgainIvor/status/1402877659311480833?s=19

humberklog

How come Sweden has far less average deaths than us in non Covid years?

Or am I reading it right?

Sweden -2,000 at the beginning of year/graph (average 2015-2019) and Ireland at 3,200 for the same time/point and they've roughly twice our population.

PintOfView

humberklog wrote: »

How come Sweden has far less average deaths than us in non Covid years?

Or am I reading it right?

Sweden -2,000 at the beginning of year/graph (average 2015-2019) and Ireland at 3,200 for the same time/point and they've roughly twice our population.

There's something wrong with the Swedish data on that web site (our world in data).

The Irish data looks ok, with a peak last April of 3,500,
and the line for 2021 starting above 3,800 in Jan.

The Swedish pattern may be ok, but the numbers seem way off,
with their numbers like, or lower than, ours, but they have, as you say, double our population.

The Economist have a page that gives excess deaths by country also
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
(good for bigger picture trends and comparisons)

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

Excuse me. This accusation and name throwing is old smear tactic and simply do not work anymore. I can assure you I have had more vaccines than you can ever imagine of getting simply because I came from a country with robust and mandatory vaccination program. I have absolutely nothing against any vaccines. Yet for some reason you scream antivaxx like it was some magical word.
Case is fairly simple. This pandemic outcome turned out to be far from predictions thrown out at the start of it and from the look of it treating affected people simply become not that important due to low mortality or overall effect on population. Mostly already very sick people were affected so focus shifted from possible treatment to some hypothetical prevention which by the way is not possible anyway. Mortality decreased because the most vulnerable people already died while majority of cases did not even developed any symptoms or problems, their immune system managed to deal with this virus without them even knowing something is happening. I have seen it with my very own eyes when we had few outbreaks at my work place.

It is economics pure and simple. Possible treatment with cheap and readily available remedies are thrown out or dismissed as not working while expensive therapies or experimental treatments are being pushed as a way out. We hear about this and that new drug all the while we refuse to acknowledge that place where virus started dealt with it quite fast with a help of proven, cheap and quite safe remedies and medications.
Take vitamin D for example which china brought by truckloads to affected regions and even our own scientists found a link between most severe cases being identified as people with vitamin D deficiency. No conspiracy here but science.

If, as you say you are a believer in vaccines then it might be an idea to take a look at how vaccines level, are and have been for the last few months, reducing new cases, hospital and ICU numbers rather than pushing drugs that have no data from large scales clinical trial and qouting articles from The Epoch Times, a far right newspsper and media company affiliated with the Falan Gong religious movement.


Very sick people die every year. Last year Sweden had an excess of 9,175 deaths compared to previous year. And that was in a year where for the first 12 weeks Sweden had lower deaths than the previous year.
Are you now attempting to make some kind of case that because this virus is more lethal due to age and medical conditions, that it is acceptable to just shrug shoulders and say **** happens ?


When it comes to China, like the Epoch Times, I would be very sceptical of what either publishes, but at least with China they imposed a level of lockdown early on that would be impossible anywhere else, with the possible exception of North Korea.

The rest of your post is just the usual baseless conspiracy theory nonsense.

ArthurDayne

humberklog wrote: »

How come Sweden has far less average deaths than us in non Covid years?

Or am I reading it right?

Sweden -2,000 at the beginning of year/graph (average 2015-2019) and Ireland at 3,200 for the same time/point and they've roughly twice our population.

Not sure of the reason or the accuracy of the graph but on an interesting side note — the upward slant of Sweden’s life expectancy over the years has been less steep than our own. Ireland today has a largely similar life expectancy to Sweden but in 1960 there was a fairly substantial difference of around 3-4 years (73 in Sweden and around 69 in Ireland). By today’s standards, that’s similar to the gap between ourselves and countries like Albania and Jordan.

In other words, Sweden has a longer track record of citizens living into more advanced ages and that appears to have translated into their demographics — whereby almost 21% of Sweden’s population is 65+, compared to almost 14% for Ireland. That phenomenon would, one supposes, have had an impact on their Covid death tally. It appears that of 14,512 total deaths, 3,791 of those were aged 90+ (which is some 26%).

So there is something to be said for the proposition that their relative success over the years in people living into very old age has ironically left them susceptible.

charlie14

PintOfView wrote: »

There's something wrong with the Swedish data on that web site (our world in data).

The Irish data looks ok, with a peak last April of 3,500,
and the line for 2021 starting above 3,800 in Jan.

The Swedish pattern may be ok, but the numbers seem way off,
with their numbers like, or lower than, ours, but they have, as you say, double our population.

The Economist have a page that gives excess deaths by country also
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
(good for bigger picture trends and comparisons)

Irelands deaths for 2019 were 31,134. Sweden`s were 88,766.

humberklog

Yeah, can't figure that graph out at all. My failing but there we are.

Ireland had 30,127 total recorded deaths in 2015 and Sweden had 90,907 but at a quick look at that graph it looks to me like Sweden had less deaths.

I'm obviously not seeing something correctly.

I'm not questioning the veracity of the graph posted, I'd just like to understand it as it looks interesting.

patnor1011

charlie14 wrote: »

If, as you say you are a believer in vaccines then it might be an idea to take a look at how vaccines level, are and have been for the last few months, reducing new cases, hospital and ICU numbers rather than pushing drugs that have no data from large scales clinical trial and qouting articles from The Epoch Times, a far right newspsper and media company affiliated with the Falan Gong religious movement.


Very sick people die every year. Last year Sweden had an excess of 9,175 deaths compared to previous year. And that was in a year where for the first 12 weeks Sweden had lower deaths than the previous year.
Are you now attempting to make some kind of case that because this virus is more lethal due to age and medical conditions, that it is acceptable to just shrug shoulders and say **** happens ?


When it comes to China, like the Epoch Times, I would be very sceptical of what either publishes, but at least with China they imposed a level of lockdown early on that would be impossible anywhere else, with the possible exception of North Korea.

The rest of your post is just the usual baseless conspiracy theory nonsense.

This is already classic strategy to attack messenger when you cant discredit the message. Sadly in this case it does not work as even though some outlets may be controversial facts reported clearly show their (Indian) approach is promising and seems to be working.

Just to clarify, are you seriously stating here that Vitamin D deficiency do not play any role with severity of infection and it is just conspiracy theory nonsense?

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

This is already classic strategy to attack messenger when you cant discredit the message. Sadly in this case it does not work as even though some outlets may be controversial facts reported clearly show their (Indian) approach is promising and seems to be working.

Just to clarify, are you seriously stating here that Vitamin D deficiency do not play any role with severity of infection and it is just conspiracy theory nonsense?

In fairness it`s not that difficult to discredit when your are quoting The Epoch Times and promoting drugs as a cure-all that have not been subject to large clinical trials and the data verified and their use as such sanctioned by such authorities as the EMA or FDA.
But then I suppose they are also part of this conspiracy which most people seem to know off but which you have failed to clarify after being asked by a number of posters.

Do you understand the difference between causation and correlation as you appear to believe they are one and the same.
Causation explicitly applies to cases where action A causes outcome B.
Correlation is simply a relationship. A relates to B but one event doesn`t necessarily cause the other event to happen.

As far as I`m concerned, you can use your vitamin tablets, magic beans or whatever takes your fancy. Personally I will be sticking with vaccines.
As I have said to you before, this is a thread in relation to Sweden. If you want to push an alternative to vaccines then there is a very good vaccine thread on Board.ie where I am sure you will find people to engage with you on your theories There is even a conspiracy thread I believe, and if none of those takes your fancy then perhaps consider opening a thread of your own as I cannot see what you have been posting recently having anything to do with Sweden and Covid-19.

patnor1011

charlie14 wrote: »

In fairness it`s not that difficult to discredit when your are quoting The Epoch Times and promoting drugs as a cure-all that have not been subject to large clinical trials and the data verified and their use as such sanctioned by such authorities as the EMA or FDA.
But then I suppose they are also part of this conspiracy which most people seem to know off but which you have failed to clarify after being asked by a number of posters.

Do you understand the difference between causation and correlation as you appear to believe they are one and the same.
Causation explicitly applies to cases where action A causes outcome B.
Correlation is simply a relationship. A relates to B but one event doesn`t necessarily cause the other event to happen.

As far as I`m concerned, you can use your vitamin tablets, magic beans or whatever takes your fancy. Personally I will be sticking with vaccines.
As I have said to you before, this is a thread in relation to Sweden. If you want to push an alternative to vaccines then there is a very good vaccine thread on Board.ie where I am sure you will find people to engage with you on your theories There is even a conspiracy thread I believe, and if none of those takes your fancy then perhaps consider opening a thread of your own as I cannot see what you have been posting recently having anything to do with Sweden and Covid-19.

You did not answer my question. So once again, are you seriously stating here that Vitamin D deficiency do not play any role with severity of infection and it is just conspiracy theory nonsense?

It has a lot to do with Sweden. Vitamin D can protect against getting a severe case of COVID-19, a group of Swedish researchers and doctors have suggested in an article in the medical magazine Läkartidningen.
Given that known risk factors for COVID-19 are obesity, diabetes, and being institutionalised, low levels of vitamin D, which are dependent on sun exposure, are common to all of them, the doctors emphasised.
“Vitamin D deficiency increases the risk of a severe course of COVID-19. A metaanalysis of placebo-controlled studies shows that vitamin D treatment generally protects against respiratory tract infections. The effect is greatest in individuals with low vitamin D levels, which can be explained by the effect of the vitamin on the immune system”, the researchers concluded.
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/6120407

The link between vitamin D defficiency and covid infection outcome was already proven by many scientists our own included so your little tirade about vitamine tablets and magic beans is frankly kindergarten level talk.

You also suffer from extraordinary high imagination. Your constant projection about what other talk or "push" like accusing me that I am pushing alternative to vaccination is also just product of your own wild imagination.

Every other Swede suffers from lack of vitamin D in the winter - https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/6120407
https://www.nutraingredients.com/Article/2015/05/28/Sweden-to-expand-mandatory-vitamin-D-fortification?utm_source=copyright&utm_medium=OnSite&utm_campaign=copyright

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

You did not answer my question. So once again, are you seriously stating here that Vitamin D deficiency do not play any role with severity of infection and it is just conspiracy theory nonsense?

It has a lot to do with Sweden. Vitamin D can protect against getting a severe case of COVID-19, a group of Swedish researchers and doctors have suggested in an article in the medical magazine Läkartidningen.
Given that known risk factors for COVID-19 are obesity, diabetes, and being institutionalised, low levels of vitamin D, which are dependent on sun exposure, are common to all of them, the doctors emphasised.
“Vitamin D deficiency increases the risk of a severe course of COVID-19. A metaanalysis of placebo-controlled studies shows that vitamin D treatment generally protects against respiratory tract infections. The effect is greatest in individuals with low vitamin D levels, which can be explained by the effect of the vitamin on the immune system”, the researchers concluded.
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/6120407

The link between vitamin D defficiency and covid infection outcome was already proven by many scientists our own included so your little tirade about vitamine tablets and magic beans is frankly kindergarten level talk.

You also suffer from extraordinary high imagination. Your constant projection about what other talk or "push" like accusing me that I am pushing alternative to vaccination is also just product of your own wild imagination.

Every other Swede suffers from lack of vitamin D in the winter - https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/6120407
https://www.nutraingredients.com/Article/2015/05/28/Sweden-to-expand-mandatory-vitamin-D-fortification?utm_source=copyright&utm_medium=OnSite&utm_campaign=copyright

To be perfectly honest all I am seeing from your posts is the by now far to familiar anti-vaxxer playbook.

Declarations of "I`m not anti vaccines" while at the same time determinedly avoiding any mention of vaccines and their role in combating this virus while pushing every half assed alternative theory. Even quoting some very dodgy ultra right publications when doing so, as well as the long time debunked high incidents of naturally acquired herd immunity ala Giesecke, Tegnell and Ioaniddis. Plus this conspiracy that everyone knows about, but for some strange reason you are unwilling to share.

Your latest is vitamin D, so perhaps you can tell me what efficacy rating has vitamin D for prevention of death and severe illness from Covid-19 ?

From analysis by the British Medical Journal of the Pfizer/BioNTech extensive clinical trials data their vaccine has an efficacy of 52% first dose and 95% when fully vaccinated. But then the BMJ are also part of this worldwide conspiracy that everyone apparently knows about as well.

patnor1011

charlie14 wrote: »

To be perfectly honest all I am seeing from your posts is the by now far to familiar anti-vaxxer playbook.

Declarations of "I`m not anti vaccines" while at the same time determinedly avoiding any mention of vaccines and their role in combating this virus while pushing every half assed alternative theory. Even quoting some very dodgy ultra right publications when doing so, as well as the long time debunked high incidents of naturally acquired herd immunity ala Giesecke, Tegnell and Ioaniddis. Plus this conspiracy that everyone knows about, but for some strange reason you are unwilling to share.

Your latest is vitamin D, so perhaps you can tell me what efficacy rating has vitamin D for prevention of death and severe illness from Covid-19 ?

From analysis by the British Medical Journal of the Pfizer/BioNTech extensive clinical trials data their vaccine has an efficacy of 52% first dose and 95% when fully vaccinated. But then the BMJ are also part of this worldwide conspiracy that everyone apparently knows about as well.

Oh well I tried but you seems to be determined to deflect and create your own conspiracies how people are antivaxx as if that even meant something. Then you go on about stuff I never mentioned while you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that even our own medical scientists said that we could have cut covid deaths by half simply by providing vitamin D supplements to sick and vulnerable people.
Vitamin D is not new or latest. I mentioned how chinese used it to treat their outbreaks well over a year ago and while I understand why everyone who mentioned it was laughed at and sent to conspiracy forum then, it is pathetic to see people like you doing the same now in the light of new facts and studies which confirmed that it is working not only as a treatment but as prevention too. The same go for vitamin C.
After a year everyone already know that this virus is dangerous nearly exclusively to the people with other multiple underlying conditions and young or old healthy people do not need to worry about it as absolute majority of them do not even know they have or already had it.
Congratulation you made it to my ignore list. I see no reason to further read your crystal ball fantasies about how you think what other think or your conspiracy theories about how everyone but you is antivaxx.

astrofool

Vitamin D helps, dexamethasone helps, not being obese and having a healthy cardiovascular system helps.

People who take all these and live healthily have had severe COVID, some leading to death.

Invermectin probably doesn't help (as much studies for as against it). Hydroxychloroquine also probably doesn't help (at least as a prophylactic).

Do you want to know what really helps with almost complete reduction in death and severe disease?
Vaccines.

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

Oh well I tried but you seems to be determined to deflect and create your own conspiracies how people are antivaxx as if that even meant something. Then you go on about stuff I never mentioned while you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that even our own medical scientists said that we could have cut covid deaths by half simply by providing vitamin D supplements to sick and vulnerable people.
Vitamin D is not new or latest. I mentioned how chinese used it to treat their outbreaks well over a year ago and while I understand why everyone who mentioned it was laughed at and sent to conspiracy forum then, it is pathetic to see people like you doing the same now in the light of new facts and studies which confirmed that it is working not only as a treatment but as prevention too. The same go for vitamin C.
After a year everyone already know that this virus is dangerous nearly exclusively to the people with other multiple underlying conditions and young or old healthy people do not need to worry about it as absolute majority of them do not even know they have or already had it.
Congratulation you made it to my ignore list. I see no reason to further read your crystal ball fantasies about how you think what other think or your conspiracy theories about how everyone but you is antivaxx.

I could not care less if I tried what list you put me on. No surprise though. Running away and hiding seems to be the default position for posters who spout the type nonsense you have been on vitamins and the likes of Ivermectin preventing Covid infections when challenged.

patnor1011

astrofool wrote: »

Vitamin D helps, dexamethasone helps, not being obese and having a healthy cardiovascular system helps.

People who take all these and live healthily have had severe COVID, some leading to death.

Invermectin probably doesn't help (as much studies for as against it). Hydroxychloroquine also probably doesn't help (at least as a prophylactic).

Do you want to know what really helps with almost complete reduction in death and severe disease?
Vaccines.

Seems that it does help.
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Abstract/9000/Ivermectin_for_Prevention_and_Treatment_of.98040.aspx

For the study, published on June 17 in the American Journal of Therapeutics, a group of scientists reviewed the clinical trial use of ivermectin, which has antiviral and anti-inflammatory properties, in 24 randomized controlled trials involving just over 3,400 participants. The researchers sought to assess the efficacy of ivermectin in reducing infection or mortality in people with COVID-19 or at high risk of getting it.

Using multiple methods of sequential analysis, the researchers concluded with a moderate level of confidence that the drug reduced the risk of death in COVID-19 patients by an average of 62 percent, at a 95 percent confidence interval of 0.19-0.79, in a sample of 2438 patients.

Among hospitalized COVID-19 patients, the risk of death was found to be 2.3 percent among those treated with the drug, compared to 7.8 percent for those who were not, according to the review.

“Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease,” the authors wrote.

One more peer reviewed study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/