Sweden avoiding lockdown

WhiteMemento9

Nermal wrote: »

The WHO is fully invested in the suppression strategy now. Like any institution, it is near-incapable of admitting error and will maintain this failed policy, in spite of the mountain of evidence against it, for a long time to come.

Care to point to the mountains of evidence against it?

WhiteMemento9

niallo27 wrote: »

You really want Sweden to fail dont you.

No one wants them to fail. This isn't a ****ing soccer game. Most people are human beings and want to do what is right. This constant need to devide people into camps is beyond tiresome. You don't pick a side and run with it. Sweden have gone with another approach that hopefully, other countires can learn things out of but each country is its own microcosm and what works for one doesn't mean it will work for another. Most countires have gone the more conservative route due to risks of health system failures and the unknown.

biko

niallo27 wrote: »

You really want Sweden to fail dont you.

I have already clarified my position on this but in short, no, I want Sweden to follow the guides other countries are doing. Like their neighbours..
I don't think Sweden is doing the right thing.

Why is it so hard to grasp that not everyone agrees with what the Swedish government is doing?

Breezin

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

No one wants them to fail. This isn't a ****ing soccer game. Most people are human beings and want to do what is right. This constant need to devide people into camps is beyond tiresome. You don't pick a side and run with it. Sweden have gone with another approach that hopefully, other countires can learn things out of but each country is its own microcosm and what works for one doesn't mean it will work for another. Most countires have gone the more conservative route due to risks of health system failures and the unknown.

If Sweden achieves the same outcome in the longer term,
with much lower social and economic costs, those now running and advocating hardline lockdowns will be very exposed.

Talk of the 'special' character of the Swedish people will reach mythic proportions.

WhiteMemento9

Breezin wrote: »

If Sweden achieves the same outcome in the longer term,
with much lower social and economic costs, those now running and advocating hardline lockdowns will be very exposed.

Talk of the 'special' character of the Swedish people will reach mythic proportions.

That isn't true. I have already explained that what works for Sweden doesn't mean it would have worked in other countries. I'm glad that you have at least pointed to the longterm which shows that you have some understanding that pointing to the number of deaths currently in Sweden has little to no value considering they have an overall strategy which we won't know the true results on for months.

Lyan

Sweden's strategy is working for them because the country is saturated with high IQ Nords who naturally take common sense precautions without being forced to. In other countries countries such as ours which are filled with dopey and overemotional Irish who have zero grasp of the concept of science the more open strategy will no doubt be less effective.

dubrov

Lyan wrote: »

Sweden's strategy is working for them because the country is saturated with high IQ Nords who naturally take common sense precautions without being forced to. In other countries countries such as ours which are filled with dopey and overemotional Irish who have zero grasp of the concept of science the more open strategy will no doubt be less effective.

I don't agree with any of that. Most people I've observed in Ireland are trying their best to abide by the lockdown rules.

breadmonster

https://www.lukketland.dk/e/svensk-national%c3%b8konom-den-svenske-strategi-kan-blive-dyrere-end-nedlukning/

interesting podcast about Sweden from a Swedish economist.
First half is in english doesn't paint a pretty picture of whats happening, numbers are about 2 weeks behind where its at.

85603

plodder wrote: »

The WHO seems to be constantly banging the "no evidence of immunity" drum and either they are right or the Swedes are, but they can't both be. Either the WHO or the Swedish political/medical community are going to come out of this with their reputations tarnished, it seems to me.

Anyone know whatever happened to that report that was withdrawn in Sweden? Was it ever republished?

why.

if the WHO over-reacted then its an over-reaction to a potential black death 2.0.

most people if put in the same position of handing the apporach to 'credible global plague' would err on the side of caution.

if i over react i might cause an economic depression.

but if i under react i might fail to prevent millions of needless deaths, plus the above economic depression, plus probable widespread wars, plus a legacy of 2nd, 3rd wave mutations and the associated repeat disasters.

(in any case sweden have closed uni's and half closed highschools, and banned gatherings over 50 people).

plodder

Nermal wrote: »

The WHO's reputation is already in tatters.

Here it is withdrawing the scaremongering previous tweets about herd immunity.

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1254160937805926405

That is an extraordinary retraction. It's mind boggling actually.

The WHO is fully invested in the suppression strategy now. Like any institution, it is near-incapable of admitting error and will maintain this failed policy, in spite of the mountain of evidence against it, for a long time to come.

Well, not sure about 'mountain of evidence' either. I'm not even sure there is such a huge difference between Sweden and others. I don't think any country is ideologically tied to any kind of approach, and all will adjust their restrictions in the coming months to suit the circumstances at the time.

Danzy

Lyan wrote: »

Sweden's strategy is working for them because the country is saturated with high IQ Nords who naturally take common sense precautions without being forced to. In other countries countries such as ours which are filled with dopey and overemotional Irish who have zero grasp of the concept of science the more open strategy will no doubt be less effective.

Obvious troll is obvious.

thebaz

plodder wrote: »

That is an extraordinary retraction. It's mind boggling actually.

it really is quite a turnaround, given they have been rubbishing the anti-body immunity testing for a week, when most doctors I have heard say anti-bodys should offer some protection, for probably a year - WHO were basically saying these anti-body tests are useless, just as they are being rolled out , and in particular to the healthcare professionals, and then today to change ther position, is frankly quite wreckless, for an organisation who are supposedly leading this pandemic fight.

Blut2

biko wrote: »

A journalist "debunks" statements from actual physicians..

The orders are supposed to be rolled out in a state of crisis but are already used before that.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/andelen-aldre-covidpatienter-har-minskat-kraftigt

The journalist provides links to government resources. As opposed to unsubstantiated rumours coming from "unnamed physicians" in the tabloid first link you posted. Thats about as reliable as a gossip column in the Daily Mail.

And as opposed to the second link you posed, which merely discussed the government policy document on the issue - which every other government has also issued, and which has similar recommendations on not ventilating people with low survival odds.

Your newest link is also tabloid journalism. It doesn't provide evidence of a single case of this happening, and even quotes "At the daily press conferences, it is emphasized that there are vacant intensive care places". Quoting "unnamed doctors" who say "there may be a link" is not evidence of anything, its sensationalist journalism for clicks.

Even the quote you self selected from it: "Indirectly, it becomes a kind of age selection, says a doctor who wants to be anonymous." -- An anonymous doctor, claims that theres an indirect pressure? Thats nonsense.

The article itself also states as a reason for the drop in intensive care patients:

According to Björn Eriksson, one explanation may be that the region has expanded its intermediate care and that more elderly patients, who are not suitable for intensive care, end up there.

This is completely different to a scenario whereby ICUs are actually, factually, overwhelmed and the government has "failed" anyone, which is what you're claiming.

The actual facts and statistics show that hospitals and ICUs haven't once been overwhelmed.

You need to stop believing tabloid journalism that quotes vague rumours from "unnamed sources" and start basing your opinion on the verified statistics.

edit: just to provide some actual, credible, government statistics, to be useful:

Sweden currently has 1131 ICU places as of April 24. Of those places, 533 are currently used for patients with Covid-19.

https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/coronavirus-covid-19/socialstyrelsens-roll-och-uppdrag/

And note that this does not include the capacity from emergency military hospitals that are not yet in use. The number of ICU places with ventilators they have is unclear, but appears to be around 100 in total according to media reports.

So Sweden is currently at approx 43% capacity for ICU places. And usage is dropping, not increasing, on a daily basis. At that low level of occupancy they aren't refusing medical care to anyone who needs it.

growleaves

In the video I posted earlier of an epidemiologist and advisor to the Swedish government, he said Sweden had tripled its ICU capacity by mid-April.

growleaves

He also said that individual restaurants have been closed down in Sweden by local authorities due to failure to enforce social distancing.

I still don't buy that Swedes 'naturally social distance'. Not in my experience they don't. Does anyone naturally always stand 2m apart from others?

Lyan

Danzy wrote: »

Obvious troll is obvious.

Well, doesn't necessarily mean there isn't some truth to it.

charlie14

Nermal wrote: »

The WHO's reputation is already in tatters.

Here it is withdrawing the scaremongering previous tweets about herd immunity.

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1254160937805926405

The WHO is fully invested in the suppression strategy now. Like any institution, it is near-incapable of admitting error and will maintain this failed policy, in spite of the mountain of evidence against it, for a long time to come.

Are you not perhaps going a bit overboard about herd immunity ?


According to an adviser to the Swedish government from a video posted here earlier, Sweden`s strategy was not based on herd immunity, or if it was, from listening to him they are rowing back on that.
According to him their strategy was to protect the elderly.

How effective that has been to date is even questionable when you consider their mortality statistics.

plodder

growleaves wrote: »

In the video I posted earlier of an epidemiologist and advisor to the Swedish government, he said Sweden had tripled its ICU capacity by mid-April.

Is that the guy who was criticising the Imperial College model for, among other reasons, the fact that they assumed a fixed number of ICU beds?

cnocbui

growleaves wrote: »

He also said that individual restaurants have been closed down in Sweden by local authorities due to failure to enforce social distancing.

I still don't buy that Swedes 'naturally social distance'. Not in my experience they don't. Does anyone naturally always stand 2m apart from others?

Ha ha:

https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/1252173251310166017

plodder

^ I find that hard to believe to be honest. How does he even know it's from before Covid 19?

The long running meme is "finns at a bus stop", not swedes..

kaymin

plodder wrote: »

^ I find that hard to believe to be honest. How does he even know it's from before Covid 19?

From one of the replies to that twitter post:

Note that this is not to keep safe physicals distances, but in order to "hit" the bus doors most efficiently when the bus eventually stops.

wakka12

plodder wrote: »

^ I find that hard to believe to be honest. How does he even know it's from before Covid 19?

It's obviously during covid. Anyone who's been to Scandinavia knows the people are not distant to the extent of the ridiculous stereotypes mentioned on the recent boards threads

You'd wonder how the birth rate isn't zero and swedes havnt all died of depression and loneliness if they acted like some people claim they do

wadacrack

growleaves wrote: »

He also said that individual restaurants have been closed down in Sweden by local authorities due to failure to enforce social distancing.

I still don't buy that Swedes 'naturally social distance'. Not in my experience they don't. Does anyone naturally always stand 2m apart from others?

Covid 19 is all over social media/news etc. People will be altering their behavior to stay safe despite it not coming naturally.

plodder

wakka12 wrote: »

It's obviously during covid. Anyone who's been to Scandinavia knows the people are not distant to the extent of the ridiculous stereotypes mentioned on the recent boards threads

You'd wonder how the birth rate isn't zero and swedes havnt all died of depression and loneliness if they acted like some people claim they do

It's either due to the present crisis or as someone just said about accessing the doors of the bus. It's just not believable that humans are naturally that repulsed by each other for no other reason.

biko

Time.com

Sweden's Relaxed Approach to the Coronavirus Could Already Be Backfiring

https://time.com/5817412/sweden-coronavirus/

Edit - from 9 April

sydthebeat

biko wrote: »

Time.com

https://time.com/5817412/sweden-coronavirus/

That's from 18 days ago.

Its well stale at this stage

biko

Good point, I have edited my post

STB.

Blut2 wrote: »

The number of ICU places with ventilators they have is unclear, but appears to be around 100 in total according to media reports.

So Sweden is currently at approx 43% capacity for ICU places.

If you could get your statistics right please.

jaykay74

STB. wrote: »

If you could get your statistics right please.

How up to date is that table ?

For instance the same table is shown here in an article from 2012 (which is listed as the source at the bottom of the table... The variability of critical care bed numbers in Europe).

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-012-2627-8