Sweden avoiding lockdown

Cupatae

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Young people with underlying conditions. These people know if they are susceptible and are already cocooning.

Seriously, under what scenario do you think people with underlying conditions cannot cocoon while coronavirus exists?

Had we achieved what NZ did maybe. We didn't. So now we are stuck with covid 19 long term if not permanently. You think in that scenario those with underlying conditions can just go about their normal lives? They cannot until there is a vaccine or herd immunity. Take your pick.

Peddling the myth that all young people are susceptible and in danger of dying from covid 19 is one of the worst lies about this illness. A very small number are susceptible, mostly those with underlying conditions.

We know now this is not the arbitrary illness we were told it was in the early days. Its very specific. In Ireland something like 80% of deaths are in the over 80 age category. And 90% of those infected over 80 will make a full recovery.

It isnt a black and white issue, though if what you are peddling was feasible we d have done it already.. theirs no boogey man out there willfully trying to make this pandemic as devastating as possible to the country.

What works for NZ might not work for us here..people keep quoting sweden but give it another couple of weeks that wont be long stopping.

wakka12

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

New york city, average age 36 years of age.

Sweden average age, 41.

Much younger population? When you make such statements, it seems like 80% of new yorkers are under 30.

Tell me your thoughts though, what % of population in NY has had corona in your opinion? What % has had it in Sweden in your opinion bearing in mind that their capital has 30% of population already infected + recovered from covid?

Average of 5 years is a big difference mate. The way you talk about Americans, youd think they were all obese. When only 28% of New Yorkers are obese , vs 19% of Swedes. So you are one to talk about exaggeration. And you seriously think an 8% higher obesity rate explains a 4.5x times higher rate of deaths per capita in New York?

I think 20-25% of New Yorkers were infected, because thats what the antibody test said. What I think is entirely irrelevant, as is the opinion of the ambassador until an antibody test in Stockholm proves a percentage that high. But common sense would tell you it would obviously be far lower than infection rates in NYC, and this is further backed up by the comparatively low number of deaths

But anyway, you dont seem to want to discuss with logic or reason. Ok, 1 in 3 Swedes have it then!! but only a handful of deaths, they are just an outstanding exceptions, with no valid excuse as to why this situation would turn out so differento the rest of the world for them. Wow great job Sweden! I shall not question it any further, Ginger Lemon, whatever the Swedish authorities say is a fact

tobefrank321

wakka12 wrote: »

No they do not, New York has 4.5x times as many deaths per capita, because it obviously has many factors as many number of infections too. Meaning Stockholm is not anywhere close to herd immunity, not that that is in any way surprising but some posters seem to want to defend the false claims of several Swedish authorities to the hilt despite there being so much proof to the contrary

Well its great that Stockholm have relatively low deaths and cases if true.

I'd imagine its a far less dense city than NYC so this might make a difference.

Obesity certainly does too.

But also their healthcare system which is very socialised.

They made some huge mistakes in NYC too, such as long queues with no social distancing at A&Es to get tested. Insanity. And their underground is probably the busiest in the world. While they are a huge air transport hub and also a massively multicultural city with people flying in from every covid 19 hotspot you could imagine.

As for Sweden, so far we have not seen the doomsday scenarios come true. So its worth examining at least what they are doing right.

We were told by some people on here that Sweden was heading for disaster and despite them being reasonably relaxed about it and us in lockdown for 8 full weeks, our deaths per million is very similar.

So yes we can learn from the Swedes how to live with covid 19 without sending our economy down the drain.

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You are correct. Sweden have their own currency, they understand that when you print money you drive inflation up, amongst other things that you will eventually have to face up to.

So while we may have saved up some money, in the long term we will pay higher prices for things and there is considerable talk of increases to income tax and USC in October, so we will pay even more in taxes.

PS businesses getting support from government now are on loan terms, have to be paid back, any potential pay increases to staff can be disregarded pretty quickly as businesses will HAVE TO repay loans obtained from the government first.

Not when you are in an economic environment with deflationary pressures and have productive capacity to absorb the extra liquidity

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Not when you are in an economic environment with deflationary pressures and have productive capacity to absorb the extra liquidity

But the ECB hate printing money other than for loans. Loans have to be paid back. We can't even pay back our current loans. Nevermind new ones.

It would be great if the ECB paid off every countrys debts in Europe - I don't think this would create too much inflation as it wouldn't impact most people's spending power.

But there is no mechanism for them to do this.

Its just going to be another case of the people paying for the mistakes of governments. At least its not the banks at fault this time.

Ginger n Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

Not when you are in an economic environment with deflationary pressures and have productive capacity to absorb the extra liquidity

Well Angela Merkel says no to eurobonds carry on.

I think she says no because there is no productive capacity to absorb any liquidity, not in Eurozone anyways.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

They are developing immunity as we speak. Public is out there getting infected and 80% don't even feel it.

Go on the Swedes

In Sweden they may out there getting infected, but you or nobody else knows what if any immunity they are getting or how long it lasts.
That 80% of yours, pure conjecture or something to back it up ?

Ginger n Lemon

wakka12 wrote: »

Average of 5 years is a big difference mate. The way you talk about Americans, youd think they were all obese. When only 28% of New Yorkers are obese , vs 19% of Swedes. So you are one to talk about exaggeration. And you seriously think an 8% higher obesity rate explains a 4.5x times higher rate of deaths per capita in New York?

I think 20-25% of New Yorkers were infected, because thats what the antibody test said. What I think is entirely irrelevant, as is the opinion of the ambassador until an antibody test in Stockholm proves a percentage that high. But common sense would tell you it would obviously be far lower than infection rates in NYC, and this is further backed up by the comparatively low number of deaths

But anyway, you dont seem to want to discuss with logic or reason. Ok, 1 in 3 Swedes have it then!! but only a handful of deaths, they are just an outstanding exceptions, with no valid excuse as to why this situation would turn out so differento the rest of the world for them. Wow great job Sweden! I shall not question it any further, Ginger Lemon, whatever the Swedish authorities say is a fact

My friend, I love reason and logic.

Are we arguing that Swedish ambassador is wrong?

wakka12

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

My friend, I love reason and logic.

Are we arguing that Swedish ambassador is wrong?

I think that their opinion seems incredibly unlikely indeed. Do you think it is likely that Stockholm has a higher infection rate than New York city? Do you think that is likely ?

Well for somebody who likes logic then how is it logical than a city which is many times denser and many times busier with 4.5x times as many deaths as Stoclkholm has a considerably lower level of infections?

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

In Sweden they may out there getting infected, but you or nobody else knows what if any immunity they are getting or how long it lasts.
That 80% of yours, pure conjecture or something to back it up ?

My good friend, dont worry, Germany will tell you, and their population sample will be much bigger than entire Sweden put together. Also looking at last point I dont think they care too much about how long immunity lasts, probably more than couple of of days, or years.

"
Germany is carrying out Europe’s first large-scale coronavirus antibody testing to help assess infection rates and monitor the spread of the virus.

One doctor involved in testing for antibodies is Ulrike Leimer-Lipke.

For these antibodies test to make sense, you must have had symptoms about four weeks beforehand," she explained. "Antibodies take a relatively long time to appear. If you only had symptoms last week, you wouldn't have antibodies by now.

We know that, especially in Germany, a lot of people already had it. And it is also very important for them, especially if they have a grandmother, mother or father whom they look after, to know whether they are already immune."

Ginger n Lemon

wakka12 wrote: »

I think that their opinion seems incredibly unlikely indeed. Do you think it is likely that Stockholm has a higher infection rate than New York city? Do you think that is likely ?

It could be less, but I wouldnt be too sure. Swedes do social distancing covid or no covid.

NYC I can see people getting on top of each other on the streets, stadiums, offices, lifts, skyscrapers etc etc. Given that it seems to be confirmed that Covid has been in Europe since December, it isnt beyond possibility it was in NYC in Dec too.

Id say 30% of NY had it already. And probably 15-20% of Stockholm. But could be 30% easily as well. So I wouldnt think that 30% for Stockholm is unrealistic

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

"According to the Swedish Ambassador to the U.S., Karin Ulrika Olofsdotter, Stockholm is on course to reach herd immunity in May.

“About 30% of people in Stockholm have reached a level of immunity,” said Olofsdotter in an interview with NPR. “We could reach herd immunity in the capital as early as next month May.”

tell me about Dublin, my friend?

death rates arent higher cus of 0.3% mortality, we talked about this. you will not see 50 000 dead swedes off covid, please forget about it.

Were you one of those that was insistent that Sweden was not following a herd immunity strategy ??
Sweden issued a report claiming 33%, withdrew it a day later and later claimed 27%. Looks like that diplomat went high diddle diddle and picked the middle.
By the way, this is the 6th. of May and I haven`t seen any claim of that 70% figure for this supposed herd immunity in Stockholm. Have you ?

On their herd immunity. Stockholm is the epicenter of their infections, only accounts for 20% of their population and I have seen no claims on percentage for the other 80%. Also on this herd immunity they withdrew a report that 11 of 100 blood donors had developed antibodies.I somehow doubt in was because the figure was higher than 11%.


Sweden also claims to have a Ro below 1. From that figure how are they going to achieve this 70% for the rest of their population. A Pol Pot like Cambodian redistribution of the citizens of Stockholm around the rest of the country ?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

My good friend, dont worry, Germany will tell you, and their population sample will be much bigger than entire Sweden put together. Also looking at last point I dont think they care too much about how long immunity lasts, probably more than couple of of days, or years.

"
Germany is carrying out Europe’s first large-scale coronavirus antibody testing to help assess infection rates and monitor the spread of the virus.

One doctor involved in testing for antibodies is Ulrike Leimer-Lipke.

For these antibodies test to make sense, you must have had symptoms about four weeks beforehand," she explained. "Antibodies take a relatively long time to appear. If you only had symptoms last week, you wouldn't have antibodies by now.

We know that, especially in Germany, a lot of people already had it. And it is also very important for them, especially if they have a grandmother, mother or father whom they look after, to know whether they are already immune."

You could have saved yourself the trouble with the long reply and just admitted your post was nothing other than pure conjecture.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

New york city, average age 36 years of age.

Sweden average age, 41.

Much younger population? When you make such statements, it seems like 80% of new yorkers are under 30.

Lol. That is a very thin straw you are grasping on age differences.

wakka12

charlie14 wrote: »

Lol. That is a very thin straw you are grasping on age differences.

Ireland has the same average age as New York coincidentally, it is very frequently referred to as a very young nation within a western context

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Were you one of those that was insistent that Sweden was not following a herd immunity strategy ??
Sweden issued a report claiming 33%, withdrew it a day later and later claimed 27%. Looks like that diplomat went high diddle diddle and picked the middle.
By the way, this is the 6th. of May and I haven`t seen any claim of that 70% figure for this supposed herd immunity in Stockholm. Have you ?

On their herd immunity. Stockholm is the epicenter of their infections, only accounts for 20% of their population and I have seen no claims on percentage for the other 80%. Also on this herd immunity they withdrew a report that 11 of 100 blood donors had developed antibodies.I somehow doubt in was because the figure was higher than 11%.


Sweden also claims to have a Ro below 1. From that figure how are they going to achieve this 70% for the rest of their population. A Pol Pot like Cambodian redistribution of the citizens of Stockholm around the rest of the country ?

Jesus, you really love this ok, so, yeah herd immunity is the by product of what they are doing. Its not really a strategy, I mean in other words they would want their people to get infected potentially as quickly as possible, get immunity move on. I dont think they'd want this ASAP as you know health services could get overrun, so they are doing it slowly.

I will provide you with the link once Stockholm reach herd immunity, probably later this month, keep an eye out

Cupatae

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Jesus, you really love this ok, so, yeah herd immunity is the by product of what they are doing. Its not really a strategy, I mean in other words they would want their people to get infected potentially as quickly as possible, get immunity move on. I dont think they'd want this ASAP as you know health services could get overrun, so they are doing it slowly.

I will provide you with the link once Stockholm reach herd immunity, probably later this month, keep an eye out

I can never understand it... how paid experts struggle with strategies for covid 19....and then bam on here we have the likes of yourselves ye've it solved at the drop of a hat on boards... everyone else is stupid and ye have all the solutions and its all so easy!

The next pandemic we have the gov and health experts alike should just log on boards, we d have solutions within the hour!

Ginger n Lemon

Cupatae wrote: »

I can never understand it... how paid experts struggle with strategies for covid 19....and then bam on here we have the likes of yourselves ye've it solved at the drop of a hat on boards... everyone else is stupid and ye have all the solutions and its all so easy!

The next pandemic we have the gov and health experts alike should just log on boards, we d have solutions within the hour!

Me neither! Remember UK Imperial college predicted 65,000 dead from Swine flu? 392 died?

How did those lads keep their jobs?

Also, wasnt Tony Holohan involved in cervical test fiasco? Let me tell you, chief medical experts are a rare bunch

Cupatae

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Me neither! Remember UK Imperial college predicted 65,000 dead from Swine flu? 392 died?

How did those lads keep their jobs?

Also, wasnt Tony Holohan involved in cervical test fiasco? Let me tell you, chief medical experts are a rare bunch

Yeah crazy! didnt the UK want to go swedens route and avoid all lockdown aswell...boris johnson going around shaking hands ect.. now they are decimated... lock downs are such nonsense!

Just imprison the elderly! and let us healthy people go back to normal immediately...pfft no brainier man! so easy!

Ginger n Lemon

Cupatae wrote: »

Yeah crazy! didnt the UK want to go swedens route and avoid all lockdown aswell...boris johnson going around shaking hands ect.. now they are decimated... lock downs are such nonsense!

Just imprison the elderly! and let us healthy people go back to normal immediately...pfft no brainier man! so easy!

You are correct, they did. But a gentlemen called Neil Ferguson had other ideas and spooked them with doomsday 500 000 dead figure. Co incidentally he has since resigned, he didnt follow social distancing rules. He mustve thought that this isnt as deadly of a disease as he himself was proclaiming it is. If irony was made of strawberries we would all be drinking a lot of smoothies now


"
A SCIENTIST WHOSE research aided Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s decision to impose a lockdown in the UK has resigned from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) after admitting an “error of judgment”.

Professor Neil Ferguson today said he regretted “undermining” the continued need for social distancing to tackle Covid-19 after it was claimed he broke the rules."

Cupatae

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You are correct, they did. But a gentlemen called Neil Ferguson had other ideas and spooked them with doomsday 500 000 dead figure. Co incidentally he has since resigned, he didnt follow social distancing rules. He mustve thought that this isnt as deadly of a disease as he himself was proclaiming it is. If irony was made of strawberries we would all be drinking a lot of smoothies now


"
A SCIENTIST WHOSE research aided Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s decision to impose a lockdown in the UK has resigned from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) after admitting an “error of judgment”.

Professor Neil Ferguson today said he regretted “undermining” the continued need for social distancing to tackle Covid-19 after it was claimed he broke the rules."

Extraordinary stuff! it just backs up even further your claims of lock downs being absolutely useless... Is there no end to your ability to google stuff of common knowledge and paste it to us.. im in awe here honestly.

So because on scientist broke the social distancing rules... lockdowns are useless? is that the gap you are trying to bridge there? its a stretch! but do continue, have you any other acts of hypocrisy that could be used to discredit the effectiveness of the lock down ?

Ginger n Lemon

Cupatae wrote: »

Extraordinary stuff! it just backs up even further your claims of lock downs being absolutely useless... Is there no end to your ability to google stuff of common knowledge and paste it to us.. im in awe here honestly.

So because on scientist broke the social distancing rules... lockdowns are useless? is that the gap you are trying to bridge there? its a stretch! but do continue, have you any other acts of hypocrisy that could be used to discredit the effectiveness of the lock down ?

I think its quite obvious you are a lockdown fan. Each to their own.

Just remember, below is a glimpse of whats about to go down. Leo will be pushing you out the door in July my friend, chop chop time to work. Trust me, our health will be the last concern for these politicians. We will revisit this post of mine say in July?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/bewley-s-on-grafton-street-to-close-permanently-with-loss-of-110-jobs-1.4246773

PS the most powerful nation on earth is disbanding their coronavirus response team by end of this month. They mustve listened to my gibberish on these forums! :cool:

Cupatae

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I think its quite obvious you are a lockdown fan. Each to their own.

Just remember, below is a glimpse of whats about to go down. Leo will be pushing you out the door in July my friend, chop chop time to work. Trust me, our health will be the last concern for these politicians. We will revisit this post of mine say in July?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/bewley-s-on-grafton-street-to-close-permanently-with-loss-of-110-jobs-1.4246773

PS the most powerful nation on earth is disbanding their coronavirus response team by end of this month. They mustve listened to my gibberish on these forums! :cool:

Thats it now im sitting here cheering on the Lockdown, because who doesnt love spending there summers with social restrictions and no work what a buzz! You really do have some genuine warped logic.

Balf

Cupatae wrote: »

So because on scientist broke the social distancing rules... lockdowns are useless?

But he's not any old scientist, is he? So,yeah, if a guy with his expertise reckons its fine to meet his mistress to discuss the situation in Uganda and ignore his own social distance advice, it absolutely undermines the advice.

Because it demonstrates he doesn't see a need to do it himself.

Ginger n Lemon

Balf wrote: »

But he's not any old scientist, is he? So,yeah, if a guy with his expertise reckons its fine to meet his mistress to discuss the situation in Uganda and ignore his own social distance advice, it absolutely undermines the advice.

Because it demonstrates he doesn't see a need to do it himself.

Professor lockdown broke the lockdown rules.

US is disbanding covid19 task force by end of month.

Germany will have every business opened by 1st of June.

I think this thread along with lockdown restriction lifting II will grow old over coming 2 weeks and nobody will post here as it will simply not be relevant anymore.

growleaves

It would have been even funnier if the blonde girl Dr. Ferguson was riding had been Swedish. Alas her surname is German/Dutch.

Scotland Yard are letting him off the hook since he came clean. Lucky man.

I'm laughing out loud. To a normal person who isn't completely addled it makes quite an impression. It would be like if Tony Holohan broke into a pub with all his friends and they started pouring themselves pints.

growleaves

So,yeah, if a guy with his expertise reckons its fine to meet his mistress to discuss the situation in Uganda and ignore his own social distance advice, it absolutely undermines the advice.

She told Ferguson her husband had coronavirus symptoms. Lol

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Jesus, you really love this ok, so, yeah herd immunity is the by product of what they are doing. Its not really a strategy, I mean in other words they would want their people to get infected potentially as quickly as possible, get immunity move on. I dont think they'd want this ASAP as you know health services could get overrun, so they are doing it slowly.

I will provide you with the link once Stockholm reach herd immunity, probably later this month, keep an eye out

Do I love this ? No.
But then I have never had a high level of tolerance for bulls*** or spoofers.

AngryHippie

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

US is disbanding covid19 task force by end of month.

I wouldn't use the US as a yardstick for anything.

Disbanding the task force when you know in advance there will be a second wave is just another DT red herring to make it seem like he is doing something.
Its just another ploy to muddy the waters further and add more scapegoat advisors to the pile of people he is going to blame when the gone around comes back around at him.
Total shambles of a leader and government.

Bit cynical

Paper from Upsala University dated April 15th predicting 40,000 deaths by early May if current measures were continued without further restrictions. The authors used Ferguson's Imperial College model with parameters adjusted for Sweden (e.g. small household size).

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.11.20062133v1.full.pdf