Sweden avoiding lockdown

Cupatae

Breezin wrote: »

Then by definition you are literally an extremist, supporting an extremist policy that is doing untold damage to our country.

If you snippet what I said and take it completely out of context and reply with a hyperbolic statement then I suppose I am ya, were in it whether you like it or not and id rather see it done right than have to endure more of it because of rushing it... But best of look with the extremist mental gymnastics

Smegging hell

Mobility data from Google is showing that Swedes are curtailing their economic and social activity as much as neighbouring countries with lockdowns. The economic impact is also similar. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/lockdowns-and-reopenings-arent-just-what-they-seem

KerryConnor

Haven't had chance to watch video yet but the fact that Covid came from nowhere and killed something in the same region in 2 months (34k in 2 months vs 50k in 12 months) is actually horrifying - much worse than I would have thought.

thebaz wrote: »

Some balanced input on Covid from a Professor in Cancer :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk2YZfnsOPg

In the UK , some 50,000 could die from cancer , and listening to many here and our own Minister and task force (our Nanny state) you would think ther is no other problem in the world - except Covid.

Breezin

Smegging hell wrote: »

Mobility data from Google is showing that Swedes are curtailing their economic and social activity as much as neighbouring countries with lockdowns. The economic impact is also similar. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/lockdowns-and-reopenings-arent-just-what-they-seem

This chimes with a study in the UK, based on Apple mobility data, saying the lockdown itself is not making a great difference, as people are already attuned to cautious behaviour.

So Swedish policy, which certainly is not doing nothing, as some here would have us believe, is more attuned to human behaviour.

The lesson is that there is no need for hard lockdown policies, nor to treat the population like children, Irish-style, with armed Covid checkpoints and the like.

Breezin

Breezin wrote: »

This chimes with a study in the UK, based on Apple mobility data, saying the lockdown itself is not making a great difference, as people are already attuned to cautious behaviour.

So Swedish policy, which certainly is not doing nothing, as some here would have us believe, is more attuned to human behaviour.

The lesson is that there is no need for hard lockdown policies, nor to treat the population like children, Irish-style, with armed Covid checkpoints and the like.

swedes are very different to Irish people.
Social distancing is just natural to them, they do not generally congregate in huge crowds, particularly in pubs. They also obey rules.
Irish people seem to think rules are for everyone else, It has been shown over & over during this emergency that Irish people do need to be treated like children.
Unfortunately

is_that_so

Breezin wrote: »

This chimes with a study in the UK, based on Apple mobility data, saying the lockdown itself is not making a great difference, as people are already attuned to cautious behaviour.

So Swedish policy, which certainly is not doing nothing, as some here would have us believe, is more attuned to human behaviour.

The lesson is that there is no need for hard lockdown policies, nor to treat the population like children, Irish-style, with armed Covid checkpoints and the like.

I think this post started out as well-meaning and well-adjusted and then descended into a very unsatisfactory outcome. A bit like the Swedish approach really!

Breezin

is_that_so wrote: »

I think this post started out as well-meaning and well-adjusted and then descended into a very unsatisfactory outcome. A bit like the Swedish approach really!

You must have changed your opinion when it didn't suit your view.

Breezin

bubblypop wrote: »

swedes are very different to Irish people.
Social distancing is just natural to them, they do not generally congregate in huge crowds, particularly in pubs. They also obey rules.
Irish people seem to think rules are for everyone else, It has been shown over & over during this emergency that Irish people do need to be treated like children.
Unfortunately

Here we go again with the Irish self-hatred. All Swedes are angels of public responsibility. But the feckless Irish are not to be trusted. Put them all on the naughty step.

is_that_so

Breezin wrote: »

You must have changed your opinion when it didn't suit your view.

Opinion of what exactly? That you spiralled in that post to an intemperate rant?

charlie14

Breezin wrote: »

Here we go again with the Irish self-hatred. All Swedes are angels of public responsibility. But the feckless Irish are not to be trusted. Put them all on the naughty step.

The Irish were advised to social distance and the reasons why explained.

The fact that so many choose to ignore that advice was why we had a lockdown. Weekend before it was announced, pubs, clubs, beaches and public sites were crowded.

Breezin

is_that_so wrote: »

Opinion of what exactly? That you spiralled in that post to an intemperate rant?

Precisely which part doesn't conform with your temperance test, or misaligns grievously with your opinion?

Breezin

Here's an interview by Trevor Noah with Angers Tegnell that's a couple of weeks old, but which I don't think has been linked here. Apologies if it has...
It concisely dispels some of the shibboleths and misinformation being spread about the policy.

https://youtu.be/ypwoyVl5Dxk

biko

His English is very good and he is fairly clear.

Anders claims you get paid from the first day of illness.
Although this did not happen the way the Swedish government promised (and means less pay for the worker) it's probably the best incentive to get Swedish people to actually stay home.
Of course, by the time you feel sick you've already infected other people..

biko

https://www.svd.se/grannlanderna-logiskt-att-utesluta-sverige

Neighboring countries: Logical to exclude Sweden

The data that Denmark, Finland and Norway can allow free travel between their countries, while keeping Swedes away, creates Swedish disappointment. But be defended from neighboring countries.

BRUSSELS Almost all European countries have announced that they hope that the continent will be free from borders on 15 June. Including our neighboring countries Denmark, Finland and Norway.

But Sweden can be left out of that ambition. Partly because the government itself said that it advises Swedes not to make unnecessary trips abroad before July 15 - a full month later.

Partly because other EU countries do not want Swedes to come to them.

Rest is behind paywall

Breezin

Breezin wrote: »

Here we go again with the Irish self-hatred. All Swedes are angels of public responsibility. But the feckless Irish are not to be trusted. Put them all on the naughty step.

The Irish have proved this themselves.
And just because different countries & people behave differently, doesn't mean there is any 'irish self hatred' It is called just being realistic.

PhoenixParker

Breezin wrote: »

Here we go again with the Irish self-hatred. All Swedes are angels of public responsibility. But the feckless Irish are not to be trusted. Put them all on the naughty step.

Swedes are by no means angels of public responsibility but they do have culturally ingrained habits that definitely lend themselves to social distancing.



This pic is 4 years old.

When you Google "swedes waiting for a bus" there's a whole series of blog posts, discussions and photos highlighting the Swedes enormous personal bubble.

growleaves

Swedes are by no means angels of public responsibility but they're culturally ingrained habits definitely lend themselves to social distancing.

Yet authorities in Stockholm forcibly shut restaurants because social distancing wasn't being adhered to.

Breezin

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Swedes are by no means angels of public responsibility but they do have culturally ingrained habits that definitely lend themselves to social distancing.



This pic is 4 years old.

When you Google "swedes waiting for a bus" there's a whole series of blog posts, discussions and photos highlighting the Swedes enormous personal bubble.

Sandycove DART station on a quiet day. They obviously have good train frequency.

biko

This is why Sweden should be compare to its neighbours and not Ireland etc


Finland bustop

PhoenixParker

growleaves wrote: »

Yet authorities in Stockholm forcibly shut restaurants because social distancing wasn't being adhered to.

Which proves my point. If Swedes were behaving 100% nothing would have had to be shut.

There's far more to social responsibility then social distancing. For instance I know here there are a dozen or more charities and organisations helping people fully isolating or cocooned. GAA clubs are out delivering groceries, that sort of thing.

My Mother in law lives in Sweden and I'm not aware of any similar efforts to protect or support the vulnerable in her area.

PhoenixParker

biko wrote: »

This is why Sweden should be compare to its neighbours and not Ireland etc


Finland bustop

I posted it before but the Denmark comparison is very strong.
https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.04630

Similar start dates, similar early trajectories.
Denmark locked down got the virus under control and has been gradually reopening. Their R remains slightly below 1.

Sweden's R is also slightly below 1.

The difference is that Sweden is now ticking along with multiples of the Danish number of cases and much higher mortality. Denmark has room for a surge and time to get the surge under control before its systems are overwhelmed. Sweden doesn't.

biko

30799 known cases
3743 officially dead
12.2% of known cases have passed

Numbers from FHMs own tracking page
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

daithi7

Breezin wrote: »

Here we go again with the Irish self-hatred. All Swedes are angels of public responsibility. But the feckless Irish are not to be trusted. Put them all on the naughty step.

Yup, and it's even worse when one considers that this bs, made up pseudo social science is being proven wrong daily in Ireland by the people's excellent compliance with lockdown measures to date. This bs has been proven to be bogus and should be binned asap imho....

biko

Minister for Health and Social Affairs Lena Hallengren said that mid May 100 000 would be tested a week.
So many are tested a week now? 32 700 last week... a third of the goal.
Maybe this week Lena...

charlie14

Breezin wrote: »

Nine weeks is a very, very short time in the life of a virus with no vaccine. As the WHO has said, it isn't going anywhere fast. This is the whole point of trying to manage it without causing radical damage to one's society.

Looking around Europe, everyone is slowly but surely becoming Sweden as this is realised. Except for us, of course. Our autocracy is so powerful and conservative, we are always Paddy last when it comes to doing the right thing.

There are some who have also be using what the WHO. said in relation to Sweden as if it is in agreement with that strategy.


Monday 11th May addressing Journalists in Geneva Dr. Mike Ryan executive director of the WHO`s health emergencies programme.
"Humans are not herds, and, as such the concept of herd immunity is generally reserved for calculating how many people will need to be vaccinated in the population to generate that effect. No one is safe until everyone is safe"


He went on to add,
"So I do think this idea that maybe countries who had lax measures and haven`t done anything will all of a sudden magically reach some herd immunity, and so what if we lose a few old people along the way ?- this is a really dangerous dangerous calculation"


I don`t believe there can be much doubt as to who he was referring to.

Breezin

charlie14 wrote: »

There are some who have also be using what the WHO. said in relation to Sweden as if it is in agreement with that strategy.


Monday 11th May addressing Journalists in Geneva Dr. Mike Ryan executive director of the WHO`s health emergencies programme.
"Humans are not herds, and, as such the concept of herd immunity is generally reserved for calculating how many people will need to be vaccinated in the population to generate that effect. No one is safe until everyone is safe"


He went on to add,
"So I do think this idea that maybe countries who had lax measures and haven`t done anything will all of a sudden magically reach some herd immunity, and so what if we lose a few old people along the way ?- this is a really dangerous dangerous calculation"


I don`t believe there can be much doubt as to who he was referring to.

You must have missed this bit:

Sweden is a model for the new coronavirus normal, says WHO

Or this (including a video of said Dr Ryan):

WHO lauds lockdown-ignoring Sweden as a ‘model’ for countries going forward

This has been extensively reported.
Of course, it's been pointed out to you ad nauseam that Sweden has repeatedly said it is not pursuing a policy aimed at achieving herd immunity.

MOH

biko wrote: »

30799 known cases
3743 officially dead
12.2% of known cases have passed

Numbers from FHMs own tracking page
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

Lower % than Belgium, France, Italy, UK, Hungary, Netherlands.
Bit higher than Spain (10%).

Not sure how useful that is as a statistic, the US is under 6% compared to our 6.3. And they hardly seem a paragon of a cohesive strategy.

Worth noting too that the total number of known Swedish cases is around the total number of deaths we've been told our modelling was predicting if we hadn't had a lockdown. Which definitely seems to support the argument that people's own social distancing there is far more effective than ours.

AdamD

charlie14 wrote: »

The Irish were advised to social distance and the reasons why explained.

The fact that so many choose to ignore that advice was why we had a lockdown. Weekend before it was announced, pubs, clubs, beaches and public sites were crowded.

This is a complete fabrication. The government were always going to introduce a lockdown, pictures of packed pubs and beaches just sat nicely beside the announcement as justification.

Very naive to think otherwise. Though it fits in with the Irish bashing narrative that people seem to love

charlie14

Breezin wrote: »

You must have missed this bit:


Or this (including a video of said Dr Ryan):



This has been extensively reported.
Of course, it's been pointed out to you ad nauseam that Sweden has repeatedly said it is not pursuing a policy aimed at achieving herd immunity.

Seems you and and others jumped on that too fast and read into it what you wished he said That he approved of Sweden`strategy.
Last Monday`s press briefing in Geneva cleared that up.
I always thought that his original remarks were clear that all countries should aim to get to the stage where they could ease restrictions to Sweden`s level. Not that he endorsed Sweden`s strategy.


Sweden has said many things, as have some here who are now calling it inoculation. We were told here last week by a poster from Sweden that they are now carrying out a major testing regime on the level of immunity in Stockholm. They are carrying out little testing for the virus in the general public, yet carrying out a large scale survey on immunity.
Stop fooling yourself. Dr. Mike Ryan isn`t fooled.



Or do you think his remarks last week were aimed at someone other than Sweden

charlie14

AdamD wrote: »

This is a complete fabrication. The government were always going to introduce a lockdown, pictures of packed pubs and beaches just sat nicely beside the announcement as justification.

Very naive to think otherwise. Though it fits in with the Irish bashing narrative that people seem to love

Lucky for the government so that so many idiots ignored the advice and packed pubs, clubs, beaches and public areas wasn`t it!


What exactly did you expect them to do when seeing that, let this virus run rampant because some morons could not give a fiddlers about the welfare of the rest of the population ?