Sweden avoiding lockdown

tobefrank321 · 22-05-2020 10:20am

biko wrote: »

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/langtidssjuka-isabel-behover-lakarvard-nekas-av-vardcentralen

There's no such thing as "long term" covid infection.

Where do people come up with this stuff?

Vital health services are cancelled and postponed in every country, Sweden is no different.

And in every country you are certainly not allowed go into a medical facility if covid infected - that would be insanity.

You are brought in to isolation wards by special ambulance with staff in hazmat suits.

JoChervil · 22-05-2020 12:59pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/gmwhyo/sweden_dn_geriatrics_professor_this_is_active/

And if they don't count death without testing, so their numbers are not real...

JoChervil · 22-05-2020 1:01pm

From this article (mentioned by me above):

"Geriatrics professor Yngve Gustafson believes that many elderly people are not treated for covid-19, but instead receive palliative medicine directly. "To routinely give older people with lung infection respiratory drugs, is active euthanasia, if not something worse", he says."

Breezin · 22-05-2020 1:05pm

seamus wrote: »

You should probably feel anxious that you have absolutely no measure of success, and it's just whatever nonsense you pluck from you head.

Apparently now Sweden is only doing worse than Ireland if their death rate is several multiples of ours? I saw that word in your post but reckoned you couldn't possibly be that irrational.

The fact is that you have decided that lockdown is wrong, and you will defend Sweden's approach to the death because it suits your agenda, even as they fail to meet every measure of success of that you invent for them.

Please, you've gone full playground now. Can you at least try to stick to rational discussion?

I have no reason on earth to defend Sweden's approach to the death. No one, for example, is going to defend their disastrous record on care homes, but we are in no position to throw stones from our glasshouse on that one.

The evidence points towards their smarter, more targeted policy as being less costly and as effective, in the long term, as our disastrous posturing, trying to be the hardest of hard core lockdowners in Europe with our big, stupid sledgehammer.

Sweden's death rate was cited as being 22% over a day or two. That is not something to celebrate, but it is not significant in assessing a policy that likely will be in place for years. Everyone in Europe has realised that, but we now have become our continent's slow learners. The whole basis of their policy has been to take the long view, and their policy is what this thread is about.

Mic 1972 · 22-05-2020 1:20pm

Breezin wrote: »

Please, you've gone full playground now. Can you at least try to stick to rational discussion?

I have no reason on earth to defend Sweden's approach to the death. No one, for example, is going to defend their disastrous record on care homes, but we are in no position to throw stones from our glasshouse on that one.

The evidence points towards their smarter, more targeted policy as being less costly and as effective, in the long term, as our disastrous posturing, trying to be the hardest of hard core lockdowners in Europe with our big, stupid sledgehammer.

Sweden's death rate was cited as being 22% over a day or two. That is not something to celebrate, but it is not significant in assessing a policy that likely will be in place for years. Everyone in Europe has realised that, but we now have become our continent's slow learners. The whole basis of their policy has been to take the long view, and their policy is what this thread is about.

We are far - very far - from being hard core lockdowners here
HAve you any idea what other countries went through during lock down? with zero ability to get out of the house unless for weekly (not daily) shopping. Not allowed out of a small apartment for months
Here we could always go for a 2km walk everyday, people keeping not so much social distance and nobody really intervening. What is happening here is bad for the economy but it's not comparable to the real lock down that southern Europe experienced

biko · 22-05-2020 1:30pm

32809 known cases
3925 officially dead
12% of known cases have passed

Numbers from FHMs own tracking page
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

JimmyVik · 22-05-2020 2:05pm

Breezin wrote: »

Please, you've gone full playground now. Can you at least try to stick to rational discussion?

I have no reason on earth to defend Sweden's approach to the death. No one, for example, is going to defend their disastrous record on care homes, but we are in no position to throw stones from our glasshouse on that one.

The evidence points towards their smarter, more targeted policy as being less costly and as effective, in the long term, as our disastrous posturing, trying to be the hardest of hard core lockdowners in Europe with our big, stupid sledgehammer.

Sweden's death rate was cited as being 22% over a day or two. That is not something to celebrate, but it is not significant in assessing a policy that likely will be in place for years. Everyone in Europe has realised that, but we now have become our continent's slow learners. The whole basis of their policy has been to take the long view, and their policy is what this thread is about.

The rest of the world are shocked at what Sweden have done to their old and sick.

charlie14 · 22-05-2020 2:34pm

Breezin wrote: »

The evidence points towards their smarter, more targeted policy as being less costly and as effective, in the long term, as our disastrous posturing, trying to be the hardest of hard core lockdowners in Europe with our big, stupid sledgehammer.

Sweden's death rate was cited as being 22% over a day or two. That is not something to celebrate, but it is not significant in assessing a policy that likely will be in place for years. Everyone in Europe has realised that, but we now have become our continent's slow learners. The whole basis of their policy has been to take the long view, and their policy is what this thread is about.

.

I fail to see where the evidence is that points to their policy being less costly and effective. Economically they are not projected to do any better than anyone else and their antibody test results are no better either.

You give the impression that all countries that use lockdown have no plan other than keeping strict lockdown in place indefinitely.That is completely untrue.
Lockdown as stage 1, is being used to control the spread of the virus. Thus saving lives,, and as importantly, reducing the number of new cases to levels where resrtictions can be eased and ultimately lifted without the numbers increasing indiscriminately.
At which point,stage 2 comes into effect. Testing, quick test results, contact tracing and quarantine to prevent further spread.

Sweden do not have any other stages to their strategy other than letting the virus run free and a hope for immunity. An immunity level from their own figures that is just not possible to any marked degree.

Meanwhile their comparative death rate, and their new cases especially, just keep rising.

tobefrank321 · 22-05-2020 2:37pm

JoChervil wrote: »

From this article (mentioned by me above):

"Geriatrics professor Yngve Gustafson believes that many elderly people are not treated for covid-19, but instead receive palliative medicine directly. "To routinely give older people with lung infection respiratory drugs, is active euthanasia, if not something worse", he says."

Also happens in Ireland and many other countries.

tobefrank321 · 22-05-2020 3:03pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

The rest of the world are shocked at what Sweden have done to their old and sick.

Whereas they admire what a number of other countries have done including ourselves?

There are countries who have as bad or worse record on care homes than Sweden.

In Canada, 80% of deaths are in care homes, despite a fairly thorough lockdown including closing the US border.

https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/canada-underestimated-virus-deaths-amid-long-term-care-outbreaks

sheepysheep · 22-05-2020 3:14pm

charlie14 wrote: »

What he literally said, and what was Lir.Er.Ally said in newspapers was that Sweden was a model for coronavirus normal and that Sweden was a model for countries going forward. NOT a model strategy to get there.
I am not the one with a problem with nuance. Neither am I someone that for their own agenda adds 2 and 2 and thinks it should be 5.

The WHO do not publicly criticise countries strategies and you can cover your ears and eyes and get as cranky as you wish, but Mike Ryan 8 days ago without actually naming the country made it very clear who he was referring to and why.

Your Sun piece was laughable.
The headline had your expert from Sweden telling us how poorly we were going to perform economically because of lockdown, but didn`t even know that last month his own Central Bank and Institute of Economic Research stated Sweden was going to do no better. Possibly worse.

So what you're saying here is that the 'Swedish model' is not a good model for getting to the 'Swedish model'. Seems a stretch.

You then back this up by declaring that you are not the sort of person to add 2 and 2 and get 5, implying that Mike Ryan was obviously talking about Sweden in his criticism of lax lockdown measures. No possibility he could have been talking about Brazil's Bolsonaro or the crazy Belorussian president.

Do you really think it's a credible position to take that Ryan was in one instance lambasting Sweden while in another advocating them as a model for best practice post lockdown.

Breezin · 22-05-2020 3:32pm

I'm aware that this isn't directly about the Swedish approach, but since some here are singing the praises of our policy, and think it's right to lock down an entire nation, here's Mark Paul in The Irish Times this morning. (I don't normally agree with this journalist, by the way, not that it matters.) He's writing about the hardline two-week travel quarantine that Honohan wants imposed.

If community transmission has been effectively suppressed, if there is a speedy system of testing and tracing, if social distancing and hand hygiene is normalised and if Irish tourists visit only European countries that take the same precautions, then how can Holohan’s proposal be proportionate to the risks involved?

The State cannot just go around detaining citizens in “designated facilities” for the comfort of an extra level of protection. You can’t just lock healthy people up to be on the safe side. It is an absurd, dystopian over-reaction.

Some people crave such over-reaction to assuage their biting fear. But putting our fingers in our ears and chanting “save lives, save lives, save lives” does not justify every draconian proposal, no matter how well-intentioned.

Edit: This logic clearly also applies to many other of the needlessly disastrous restrictions, including travel within Ireland.

Breezin · 22-05-2020 3:35pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

The rest of the world are shocked at what Sweden have done to their old and sick.

I thought everyone was aware of this, but obviously not (from the general relaxations thread):

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

More harsh reality.

"Ireland has one of the highest rates of Covid-19 deaths in care homes in world
Some 62% of Covid-19 deaths in Ireland relate to care homes, report says"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ireland-has-one-of-the-highest-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-in-care-homes-in-world-1.4260140

Breezin · 22-05-2020 3:45pm

Breezin · 22-05-2020 3:55pm

For those prone to gloating over Sweden's economic outlook as a perverse defence of our own economic suicide: from Politico

Recent data showed the economic slowdown in Sweden in the first three months of 2020 was less extreme than elsewhere in Europe — a contraction of 0.3 percent versus 3.8 percent in the eurozone — but economists are bracing for a big hit...

The calamitous outlook for Sweden is a result of its reliance on exports, especially to the struggling eurozone and United Kingdom, officials say.

Exports keep around a million and a half of Sweden’s population of 10 million in work, and the upside of keeping restaurants and hair salons open can’t compensate for the huge downside of production stops at big manufacturers from Södertälje-based Scania trucks and Gothenburg-based Volvo cars.

In other words, the economic damage is being done by lockdowns elsewhere, which are now getting smarter and turning Swedish...

As countries like France and Italy begin to relax their lockdowns, their approaches are beginning to look more like Sweden’s, and data from the Nordic state could help officials in Paris and Rome better understand what the immediate future could look like.

This analysis excludes direct consideration of social damage of the lockdown, including health in other sectors, which arguably is more important.

biko · 22-05-2020 3:56pm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There are countries who have as bad or worse record on care homes than Sweden.

Yes, but not out of their neighbours.
Sweden can point at Ireland and say "look, their care homes are worse off", but does it mean they did a good thing?
No, it doesn't. Just because both countries failed in this regard doesn't mean Sweden should get off lightly (nor Ireland).

Hopefully not many more old people will die, that's really what this is all about.

charlie14 · 22-05-2020 4:15pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

So what you're saying here is that the 'Swedish model' is not a good model for getting to the 'Swedish model'. Seems a stretch.

You then back this up by declaring that you are not the sort of person to add 2 and 2 and get 5, implying that Mike Ryan was obviously talking about Sweden in his criticism of lax lockdown measures. No possibility he could have been talking about Brazil's Bolsonaro or the crazy Belorussian president.

Do you really think it's a credible position to take that Ryan was in one instance lambasting Sweden while in another advocating them as a model for best practice post lockdown.

Have Brazil`s Bolsonaro or Belarus`s Lukashenko been advocating herd immunity as a strategy for combating Covid-19 ?
If they are then I have missed it.

Mike Ryan`s press briefing in Geneva Monday May 11th .made it very clear what he thought of the immunity strategy. It was very very dangerous and cost lives.

From his earlier statement there were those that sought to represent what he said as advocating Sweden`s strategy. What he actually said was where Sweden are regarding restrictions was where others should aim for in combating Covid-19. Not that he advocated their strategy.

You can believe he was referring to Brazil, Belarus or both.

For myself I believe it was quite clear who he was referring too and why he gave that press briefing.

charlie14 · 22-05-2020 4:25pm

Breezin wrote: »

For those prone to gloating over Sweden's economic outlook as a perverse defence of our own economic suicide: from Politico

In other words, the economic damage is being done by lockdowns elsewhere, which are now getting smarter and turning Swedish...

This analysis excludes direct consideration of social damage of the lockdown, including health in other sectors, which arguably is more important.

Some here jumped on the first figures they saw in their love of Sweden`s strategy, kept on about Sweden`s first quarter GDP and would not look any further even when it was shown that Sweden were not going to benefit economically from their strategy.

Please stop the "getting smarter and turning to Sweden " line. Nobody is, and after their antibody test results and comparative high rate of deaths nobody is going too.

tobefrank321 · 22-05-2020 4:35pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Some here jumped on the first figures they saw in their love of Sweden`s strategy, kept on about Sweden`s first quarter GDP and would not look any further even when it was shown that Sweden were not going to benefit economically from their strategy.

Please stop the "getting smarter and turning to Sweden " line. Nobody is, and after their antibody test results and comparative high rate of deaths nobody is going too.

The point he is making is that Sweden's economic problems will not come from its own approach but from the approach of other nations.

Secondly, its a myth that Sweden have no restrictions at all. From what I can see, Sweden's restrictions look very much like what we will be post lockdown. Their restaurants remained open for example but with 30% capacity because of social distancing. Their R0 is about 1, hardly in the herd immunity category.

The Swedes might have aspired towards herd immunity, but in reality have done nothing to make it happen. They'd need an R0 of 2 to come close.

They've managed to maintain some semblance of normality while avoiding the doomsday scenarios. They've also done far better than many European countries who never entertained herd immunity.

Overall you'd have to rank them somewhere in the middle in Europe along with Ireland.

biko · 22-05-2020 4:37pm

Doctor orders morphine to end the man's life without consulting the relatives.
After son hears about it he contacts media and father is put on nutrition, and recovers fully.

Make one wonder how many elderly without family have been euthanized.

Several relatives DN talked to are critical of the elderly not being treated against covid-19, but being given palliative care immediately - without having to see a doctor.
It was after a hospital visit at the end of March that Jan Andersson, 81, fell ill in covid-19 at Ärlingshem's elderly home in Märsta north of Stockholm. Without meeting Jan and without informing neither him nor his relatives, the doctor decided - via telephone to the nurse at the nursing home - to prescribe palliative care with morphine.

His son Thomas Andersson states that on April 7, he called and asked for the father to get a drop of fluid and nutrition - and then he was informed that the father was in the final stages of life. He was invited to come to the accommodation and say goodbye.

- Dad was completely gone by morphine. It was only when I contacted the media and all those responsible that Dad was instead put on drip and received their usual medication, such as blood thinning, by injection. Quite quickly he recovered and today he is healthy.

https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/covidsjuka-jan-81-fick-palliativ-vard-blev-frisk-nar-familjen-satte-stopp/

tobefrank321 · 22-05-2020 4:43pm

biko wrote: »

Doctor orders morphine to end the man's life without consulting the relatives.
After son hears about it he contacts media and father is put on nutrition, and recovers fully.

Make one wonder how many elderly without family have been euthanized.

https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/covidsjuka-jan-81-fick-palliativ-vard-blev-frisk-nar-familjen-satte-stopp/

As has been pointed out numerous times to you, this is common practice in every country with a covid 19 care home crisis, apart from I believe Germany.

A cursory examination of the mean age of those in ICU versus those who die from covid 19 would tell you this. Older people are rarely sent to ICU in Ireland. Personally I think with spare capacity in ICU, its a bit of a scandal, but others strongly disagree. However, there are lots of examples of people aged over 90 and even 100 in other countries who were sent to hospital and survived covid 19.

sheepysheep · 22-05-2020 4:46pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Have Brazil`s Bolsonaro or Belarus`s Lukashenko been advocating herd immunity as a strategy for combating Covid-19 ?
If they are then I have missed it.

Mike Ryan`s press briefing in Geneva Monday May 11th .made it very clear what he thought of the immunity strategy. It was very very dangerous and cost lives.

From his earlier statement there were those that sought to represent what he said as advocating Sweden`s strategy. What he actually said was where Sweden are regarding restrictions was where others should aim for in combating Covid-19. Not that he advocated their strategy.

You can believe he was referring to Brazil, Belarus or both.

For myself I believe it was quite clear who he was referring too and why he gave that press briefing.

You also must have missed the countless reiterations that they are not pursuing a 'herd immunity' strategy, but that it may occur as a by product.

What you believe is largely irrelevant. This is what he said.

Sweden’s approach, said Dr Ryan, was a good example of how Western societies could reach a “new normal”.

Mike Ryan, of the WHO emergencies team, said it was wrong to believe that Sweden had “just let the infection spread”.

“Nothing can be further from the truth,” Dr Ryan said.

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” he said. “They have implemented public policy through that partnership ... Sweden represents a future model if we want to return to a society that we do not have to close.”

It's a pretty strong endorsement really, and it's where every country in Europe that doesn't want an endless lockdown is heading.

Breezin · 22-05-2020 5:23pm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

They've managed to maintain some semblance of normality while avoiding the doomsday scenarios. They've also done far better than many European countries who never entertained herd immunity.

Overall you'd have to rank them somewhere in the middle in Europe along with Ireland.

This. They are roughly where we are, without the self-imposed car crash. Smarter.

is_that_so · 22-05-2020 5:52pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

You also must have missed the countless reiterations that they are not pursuing a 'herd immunity' strategy, but that it may occur as a by product.

What you believe is largely irrelevant. This is what he said.

Sweden’s approach, said Dr Ryan, was a good example of how Western societies could reach a “new normal”.

Mike Ryan, of the WHO emergencies team, said it was wrong to believe that Sweden had “just let the infection spread”.

“Nothing can be further from the truth,” Dr Ryan said.

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” he said. “They have implemented public policy through that partnership ... Sweden represents a future model if we want to return to a society that we do not have to close.”

It's a pretty strong endorsement really, and it's where every country in Europe that doesn't want an endless lockdown is heading.

Perhaps but not with such a dose of elder wipeout. The missing element in Ryan's equation is that we are not Swedish and I'm not sure many countries would want to be.

charlie14 · 22-05-2020 6:20pm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The point he is making is that Sweden's economic problems will not come from its own approach but from the approach of other nations.

Secondly, its a myth that Sweden have no restrictions at all. From what I can see, Sweden's restrictions look very much like what we will be post lockdown. Their restaurants remained open for example but with 30% capacity because of social distancing. Their R0 is about 1, hardly in the herd immunity category.

The Swedes might have aspired towards herd immunity, but in reality have done nothing to make it happen. They'd need an R0 of 2 to come close.

They've managed to maintain some semblance of normality while avoiding the doomsday scenarios. They've also done far better than many European countries who never entertained herd immunity.

Overall you'd have to rank them somewhere in the middle in Europe along with Ireland.

The point he and a few others were trying to make while conveniently attempting to ignoring reality is that economically Sweden was going to perform better from their strategy. Even when it was pointed out on many posts they were not.

Secondly they are not going to get to herd immunity due to their population not wanting to be infected, rather than any efforts by their health authority that have their R0 number around one.
Their strategy has no nowhere to go now other than to continue as they are and hope the virus burns itself out.

I would not rank them in the middle of Europe, and certainly not alongside Ireland.
Per head of population they are 5th.highest for deaths in Europe, are 22% greater than Ireland and that margin growing, as well as 3.5 greater comparatively than the population of their neighbours Norway, Finland and Denmark combined.

charlie14 · 22-05-2020 6:46pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

You also must have missed the countless reiterations that they are not pursuing a 'herd immunity' strategy, but that it may occur as a by product.

What you believe is largely irrelevant. This is what he said.

Sweden’s approach, said Dr Ryan, was a good example of how Western societies could reach a “new normal”.

Mike Ryan, of the WHO emergencies team, said it was wrong to believe that Sweden had “just let the infection spread”.

“Nothing can be further from the truth,” Dr Ryan said.

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” he said. “They have implemented public policy through that partnership ... Sweden represents a future model if we want to return to a society that we do not have to close.”

It's a pretty strong endorsement really, and it's where every country in Europe that doesn't want an endless lockdown is heading.

Sweden have constantly reiterated they were not pursuing herd immunity yet kept giving projected figures for it in virtually the same sentence.

So who do you believe Mike Ryan was referring too in his press briefing just over a week ago over herd immunity on how dangerous it was and the cost in lives?
Other than Sweden`s, its not herd immunity, but here are the modeling figures for when it will be, I know of no other country doing that.

If Sweden`s strategy is anything, from both their antibody test figures, deaths in comparison to their neighbours, and new confirmed cases, it`s a lesson in what not to do.

sheepysheep · 22-05-2020 7:22pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Sweden have constantly reiterated they were not pursuing herd immunity yet kept giving projected figures for it in virtually the same sentence.

So who do you believe Mike Ryan was referring too in his press briefing just over a week ago over herd immunity on how dangerous it was and the cost in lives?
Other than Sweden`s, its not herd immunity, but here are the modeling figures for when it will be, I know of no other country doing that.

If Sweden`s strategy is anything, from both their antibody test figures, deaths in comparison to their neighbours, and new confirmed cases, it`s a lesson in what not to do.

This is what he said regarding herd immunity

He said “no one is safe until everyone is safe”, adding: “So I do think this idea that ‘maybe countries who had lax measures and haven’t done anything will all of a sudden magically reach some herd immunity, and so what if we lose a few old people along the way?’ – this is a really dangerous, dangerous calculation.

Which stands in direct polar opposite to what he said about Sweden.

Mike Ryan, of the WHO emergencies team, said it was wrong to believe that Sweden had “just let the infection spread”.

“Nothing can be further from the truth,” Dr Ryan said.

In other words, he has addressed a specific issue and directly exonerated Sweden as being a member of that particular 'lax measure' community, and to boot, has endorsed their model as an example for other countries.

It could not be clearer. They're the man's own words. You're in no position to contradict him. You have no evidence that he's confused, disingenuous, or outright lying for some particular agenda that only you believe in.

In all likelihood he was probably referencing Bolsonero, who is clearly a crackpot and has been making waves long before Covid-19 arrived on the scene with his climate change policies, yer man in Belarus, or any number of other tin pot regimes around the world that don't make the news over here on a daily basis.

Breezin · 22-05-2020 7:25pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

This is what he said regarding herd immunity

He said “no one is safe until everyone is safe”, adding: “So I do think this idea that ‘maybe countries who had lax measures and haven’t done anything will all of a sudden magically reach some herd immunity, and so what if we lose a few old people along the way?’ – this is a really dangerous, dangerous calculation.

Which stands in direct polar opposite to what he said about Sweden.

Mike Ryan, of the WHO emergencies team, said it was wrong to believe that Sweden had “just let the infection spread”.

“Nothing can be further from the truth,” Dr Ryan said.

In other words, he has addressed a specific issue and directly exonerated Sweden as being a member of that particular 'lax measure' community, and to boot, has endorsed their model as an example for other countries.

It could not be clearer. They're the man's own words. You're in no position to contradict him. You have no evidence that he's confused, disingenuous, or outright lying for some particular agenda that only you believe in.

In all likelihood he was probably referencing Bolsonero, who is clearly a crackpot and has been making waves long before Covid-19 arrived on the scene with his climate change policies, yer man in Belarus, or any number of other tin pot regimes around the world that don't make the news over here on a daily basis.

All been said before, sheep.
The man is dead to reason. Sweden must have upset him some time in his past.

charlie14 · 22-05-2020 8:31pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

This is what he said regarding herd immunity

He said “no one is safe until everyone is safe”, adding: “So I do think this idea that ‘maybe countries who had lax measures and haven’t done anything will all of a sudden magically reach some herd immunity, and so what if we lose a few old people along the way?’ – this is a really dangerous, dangerous calculation.

Which stands in direct polar opposite to what he said about Sweden.

Mike Ryan, of the WHO emergencies team, said it was wrong to believe that Sweden had “just let the infection spread”.

“Nothing can be further from the truth,” Dr Ryan said.

In other words, he has addressed a specific issue and directly exonerated Sweden as being a member of that particular 'lax measure' community, and to boot, has endorsed their model as an example for other countries.

It could not be clearer. They're the man's own words. You're in no position to contradict him. You have no evidence that he's confused, disingenuous, or outright lying for some particular agenda that only you believe in.

In all likelihood he was probably referencing Bolsonero, who is clearly a crackpot and has been making waves long before Covid-19 arrived on the scene with his climate change policies, yer man in Belarus, or any number of other tin pot regimes around the world that don't make the news over here on a daily basis.

If you wish to believe that Mike Ryan went out of his way to say what he did in Geneva just over a week ago in relation to herd immunity was for the benefit of Bolsonero or Lukashenko, neither of which far as I know have never even suggested following a herd immunity strategy. Or indeed has any other tin pot regime that I`m aware of, then that is entirely up to you.

charlie14 · 22-05-2020 8:57pm

Breezin wrote: »

All been said before, sheep.
The man is dead to reason. Sweden must have upset him some time in his past.

Sweden must have been good to you at some point when you still cannot accept that its strategy will not leave it economically better off, and that from the results of their antibody tests their immunity models you loved so much were a mathematical fantasy.

Rather than acknowledge both those facts you are on here posting about how "smart" they are and countries "turning to Sweden" when their strategy has resulted in many multiples of the level of deaths of their neighbours and where last week they had the highest level per head of population in Europe.

You obviously have a very poor understanding of irony when it comes to reason and calling others sheep.

Sweden avoiding lockdown

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