Sweden avoiding lockdown

sheepysheep

charlie14 wrote: »

If you wish to believe that Mike Ryan went out of his way to say what he did in Geneva just over a week ago in relation to herd immunity was for the benefit of Bolsonero or Lukashenko, neither of which far as I know have never even suggested following a herd immunity strategy. Or indeed has any other tin pot regime that I`m aware of, then that is entirely up to you.

I don't believe. Just offering a suggestion. The point being that whoever he was referencing, his own quotes above make it very clear that it was not Sweden.

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

Sweden must have been good to you at some point when you still cannot accept that its strategy will not leave it economically better off, and that from the results of their antibody tests their immunity models you loved so much were a mathematical fantasy.


Rather than acknowledge both those facts you are on here posting about how "smart" they are and countries "turning to Sweden" when their strategy has resulted in many multiples of the level of deaths of their neighbours and where last week they had the highest level per head of population in Europe.


You obviously have a very poor understanding of irony when it comes to reason and calling others sheep.

It's been stated numerous times that, in a worst case scenario, unemployment in Sweden will rise to 10%. Unemployment in Ireland will rise to 20+%. Yes their GDP will drop by up to 7% but that is largely as a result of a drop in exports due to issues in other countries.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

It's been stated numerous times that, in a worst case scenario, unemployment in Sweden will rise to 10%. Unemployment in Ireland will rise to 20+%. Yes their GDP will drop by up to 7% but that is largely as a result of a drop in exports due to issues in other countries.

Worst case scenario Sweden`s Central Bank is predicting their GDP to contract by 9.7%, but that was not the point I was making.

Some here were still using the line that because of their strategy Sweden would fare much better economically than others even when numerous posts clearly showed that was not true..
When it comes to unemployment levels I am inclined to go with the President of the Republic of Ghana. "We know how to bring the economy back to life. What we do not know is how to bring people back to life"

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

Worst case scenario Sweden`s Central Bank is predicting their GDP to contract by 9.7%, but that was not the point I was making.

Some here were still using the line that because of their strategy Sweden would fare much better economically than others even when numerous posts clearly showed that was not true..
When it comes to unemployment levels I am inclined to go with the President of the Republic of Ghana. "We know how to bring the economy back to life. What we do not know is how to bring people back to life"

Is a 10% unemployment rate not a far better performance than a 20+% unemployment rate?

And what if they imposed a similar lockdown to elsewhere?:

https://www.ft.com/content/93105160-dcb4-4721-9e58-a7b262cd4b6e

Ms Nyman said she believed that without the no-lockdown policy, Sweden would have been harder hit, as in 2008. “If we didn’t have these better circumstances, we would have done worse. Usually, we are more severely hit by a global recession,” she added.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

Is a 10% unemployment rate not a far better performance than a 20+% unemployment rate?

And what if they imposed a similar lockdown to elsewhere?:

https://www.ft.com/content/93105160-dcb4-4721-9e58-a7b262cd4b6e

Ms Nyman said she believed that without the no-lockdown policy, Sweden would have been harder hit, as in 2008. “If we didn’t have these better circumstances, we would have done worse. Usually, we are more severely hit by a global recession,” she added.

Somewhat like the President of the Republic of Ghana I would have viewed levels of death from the virus more in line with that of neighbouring countries rather than a comparative level 3.5 times greater than that of Norway, Finland and Denmark combined as a far better performance.

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

Somewhat like the President of the Republic of Ghana I would have viewed levels of death from the virus more in line with that of neighbouring countries rather than a comparative level 3.5 times greater than that of Norway, Finland and Denmark combined as a far better performance.

If that's your sole focus then you should factor in the number of deaths caused from shutting down hospitals to all but covid patients and the long-term damage to people's quality of life from not getting prompt medical care. Not to mention the rise in mental health problems and suicide.

https://qz.com/1850947/the-deadly-consequences-of-the-covid-19-economic-shutdown/

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

If that's your sole focus then you should factor in the number of deaths caused from shutting down hospitals to all but covid patients and the long-term damage to people's quality of life from not getting prompt medical care. Not to mention the rise in mental health problems and suicide.

https://qz.com/1850947/the-deadly-consequences-of-the-covid-19-economic-shutdown/

If we had not introduced lockdown our health services would have been quickly overrun. That was not going to do a lot for peoples quality of life as regards getting prompt medical care either.

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

If we had not introduced lockdown our health services would have been quickly overrun. That was not going to do a lot for peoples quality of life as regards getting prompt medical care either.

lol - you ignore the massive collateral damage of the government's actions because they all would have died due to Covid without the shutdown - that's your argument? The fact that it didn't happen in Sweden doesn't seem to cross your mind.

The UK created 4,000 extra bed hospital (NHS Nightingale) and maybe 60 beds were ever used. And the UK is seen as a disaster zone as regards Covid. How many of the 750 beds in Citywest hotel were ultimately used for Covid patients? The government pushed the alarmist agenda and you've swallowed it hook, line and sinker!

There's a reason consultants are abandoning the Covid contracts - their regular patients are being ignored while they sit twiddling their thumbs. What was said in the Dail the other day - its easier to get a MacDonalds than a smear test.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

lol - you ignore the massive collateral damage of the government's actions because they all would have died due to Covid without the shutdown - that's your argument? The fact that it didn't happen in Sweden doesn't seem to cross your mind.

The UK created 4,000 extra bed hospital (NHS Nightingale) and maybe 60 beds were ever used. And the UK is seen as a disaster zone as regards Covid. How many of the 750 beds in Citywest hotel were ultimately used for Covid patients? The government pushed the alarmist agenda and you've swallowed it hook, line and sinker!

There's a reason consultants are abandoning the Covid contracts - their regular patients are being ignored while they sit twiddling their thumbs. What was said in the Dail the other day - its easier to get a MacDonalds than a smear test.

City West was intended to be used to treat Covid-19 patients in a hospital setting. You sure you are not a bit confused on that ?
My impression is that it was intended for step-down and isolation purposes.
Sounds as if you believe all those frontline HSE staff that were run of their feet and working long shifts were only just sitting around twiddling their thumbs

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

City West was intended to be used to treat Covid-19 patients in a hospital setting. You sure you are not a bit confused on that ?
My impression is that it was intended for step-down and isolation purposes.

'It was set up to ease pressures on hospitals in the Dublin region, with growing numbers of people testing positive for the virus.'

'It'll house around 1,100 people who need treatment or are a confirmed case.'

At its peak 70 patients were located there v a capacity of 1,400. Care to address any of the other points raised?

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

'It was set up to ease pressures on hospitals in the Dublin region, with growing numbers of people testing positive for the virus.'

Care to address any of the other points raised?

Care to admit City West was only intended for isolation and step-down ?

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

City West was intended to be used to treat Covid-19 patients in a hospital setting. You sure you are not a bit confused on that ?
My impression is that it was intended for step-down and isolation purposes.
Sounds as if you believe all those frontline HSE staff that were run of their feet and working long shifts were only just sitting around twiddling their thumbs

You should inform yourself a little better:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/calls-to-revisit-private-hospital-deal-as-beds-lying-empty-despite-115m-per-month-cost-to-taxpayer-996616.html

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

Care to admit City West was only intended for isolation and step-down ?

haha, define step-down

Danno

kaymin wrote: »

You should inform yourself a little better:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/calls-to-revisit-private-hospital-deal-as-beds-lying-empty-despite-115m-per-month-cost-to-taxpayer-996616.html

Exactly. Now we are seeing the *vested interests* turn to "never let a good crisis go to waste".

But shure, it's only the gombeen Irish taxpayer stumping the bill - so who cares? :rolleyes:

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

haha, define step-down

If you are looking for a definition then it appears you do not know what use City West was intended for.
Tell, out of idle curiosity, what do you think all those front-line health staff were doing working long shifts and run off their feet doing ? Twiddling their thumbs and they were scamming us all

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

If you are looking for a definition then it appears you do not know what use City West was intended for.
Tell, out of idle curiosity, what do you think all those front-line health staff were doing working long shifts and run off their feet doing ? Twiddling their thumbs and they were scamming us all

Lol, address the facts I've presented rather than go around in circles with the same empty arguments.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

'It was set up to ease pressures on hospitals in the Dublin region, with growing numbers of people testing positive for the virus.'

'It'll house around 1,100 people who need treatment or are a confirmed case.'

At its peak 70 patients were located there v a capacity of 1,400. Care to address any of the other points raised?

So you believe it would have been better to wait for the possibility of hospitals were overrun rather than plan for the possibility.
The fact that it was only needed sparingly would indicate how successful lockdown was to me.

sheepysheep

charlie14 wrote: »

If you are looking for a definition then it appears you do not know what use City West was intended for.
Tell, out of idle curiosity, what do you think all those front-line health staff were doing working long shifts and run off their feet doing ? Twiddling their thumbs and they were scamming us all

How do you know that they were run off their feet?

We've only had 3100 hospitalisations and 393 into ICU over the entire period.

Hardly choc a bloc by any stretch of the imagination.

We've a ~ 110k HSE staff, and 16 billion annual budget.

The vast majority are twiddling their thumbs, because there is no A&E, electives or cancer screenings etc.

It's a goddamn disaster slowly rolling down the track in 6 months time.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

Lol, address the facts I've presented rather than go around in circles with the same empty arguments.

What facts ?
A supposition on suicide and mental health. On health care for the vulnerable.

This is a thread on Sweden`s approach to dealing with Covid-19 and from all those favouring that approach we are told that Sweden`s strategy on the vulnerable is the same as here, so what point are you trying to make ?

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

So you believe it would have been better to wait for the possibility of hospitals were overrun rather than plan for the possibility.
The fact that it was only needed sparingly would indicate how successful lockdown was to me.

The possibility of hospitals being overrun was always there and still is. It's a remote possibility and has been for some time. The collateral damage of the ongoing shutdown as mentioned by the above poster will dwarf the impact of covid. You seem to forget that 62% of deaths were in nursing homes - despite the government's drastic actions that you champion, they still made a balls of it. Baby out with the bathwater springs to mind. Headless chickens also.

charlie14

sheepysheep wrote: »

How do you know that they were run off their feet?

We've only had 3100 hospitalisations and 393 into ICU over the entire period.

Hardly choc a bloc by any stretch of the imagination.

We've a ~ 110k HSE staff, and 16 billion annual budget.

The vast majority are twiddling their thumbs, because there is no A&E, electives or cancer screenings etc.

It's a goddamn disaster slowly rolling down the track in 6 months time.

Your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I cannot help noticing that there have been a lot around here acting like angry wasps since the economic argument on Sweden`s economic advantage fell apart and the whole immunity argument went the same route looking for anything they can grasp on too to divert attention.

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

What facts ?
A supposition on suicide and mental health. On health care for the vulnerable.

This is a thread on Sweden`s approach to dealing with Covid-19 and from all those favouring that approach we are told that Sweden`s strategy on the vulnerable is the same as here, so what point are you trying to make ?

Which country do you think might suffer greater mental health issues. One with 7% unemployment or one with 28 - 50% unemployment?

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

Your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I cannot help noticing that there have been a lot around here acting like angry wasps since the economic argument on Sweden`s economic advantage fell apart and the whole immunity argument went the same route looking for anything they can grasp on too to divert attention.

Hilarious, you still haven't addressed the unemployment statistics conundrum

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

The possibility of hospitals being overrun was always there and still is. It's a remote possibility and has been for some time. The collateral damage of the ongoing shutdown as mentioned by the above poster will dwarf the impact of covid. You seem to forget that 62% of deaths were in nursing homes - despite the government's drastic actions that you champion, they still made a balls of it. Baby out with the bathwater springs to mind. Headless chickens also.

If your main interest is in the economic cost, that is your call. As I said earlier I favour the President of the Republic of Ghana`s view.
This is a thread in relation to Sweden, and a strategy you appear to favour.Deaths in nursing homes is not something for them to sing from the rooftops on either.

kaymin

charlie14 wrote: »

If your main interest is in the economic cost, that is your call. As I said earlier I favour the President of the Republic of Ghana`s view.
This is a thread in relation to Sweden, and a strategy you appear to favour.Deaths in nursing homes is not something for them to sing from the rooftops on either.

You seem incapable of contributing anything meaningful or factual for that matter so I'll stop wasting my time responding.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

Hilarious, you still haven't addressed the unemployment statistics conundrum

I did. You just refused to acknowledge.
"We know how to bring the economy back to life. What we do not know is how to bring people back to life" President of the Republic of Ghana.

sheepysheep

charlie14 wrote: »

Your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I cannot help noticing that there have been a lot around here acting like angry wasps since the economic argument on Sweden`s economic advantage fell apart and the whole immunity argument went the same route looking for anything they can grasp on too to divert attention.

The economic argument hasn't fallen apart though. You just keep insisting that it has.

66% of the Irish workforce is now on some kind of Government handout.

Ireland's unemployment about to go through the roof when pup payments end and a 30 billion deficit racked up.

Sweden's GDP will take a hit, possibly the same as most European countries.

However, GDP isn't all about multinationals like Volvo or cruise liners. Ireland's small business, sole traders etc have been decimated.

Sweden by contrast is still open so all these small local business still have a fighting chance. These small business people may be struggling but they're still turning over. SME's are the lifeblood of every economy.

You just can't see the people behind the GDP statistics. Ruined business equals ruined lives in a lot of cases.

That East Anglia report said it all. Hand washing, social distancing and avoiding large scale gatherings are the principle drivers. Exactly what the Swedes did. Irish expert on prime time this week more or less said the same. The main benefit accrued before lock-down commenced.

Here, in Ireland, we are now knee deep in a world of token gestureism.

Can't even jump from 2m to 1m as per WHO without much wailing and knashing of teeth.

charlie14

kaymin wrote: »

You seem incapable of contributing anything meaningful or factual for that matter so I'll stop wasting my time responding.

On a thread about Sweden`s strategy you seem very put out that not only is the economic advantage they were supposedly going to have null and void ,but now their immunity advantage has gone the same route. The comparisons on their death rates doesn`t help either it seems.
You just appear to be attempting to distract from any of that, so I really have no interest in going down your rabbit holes so I have no interest in responding to you either.


Good luck and mind yourself.

Bit cynical

Daily deaths showing decline that Sweden's policies and social distancing guidelines are working. Peak seems to have been reached some time mid-April.

The graph is a seven-day rolling average which overcomes much of the problem with Sweden's weekly reporting cycle and allows trends to be spotted more easily.

PhoenixParker

20 days ago they were at 70 deaths per day and 7 days ago they were at 70 deaths per day with numbers above and below the line in equal measure. In the last 7 days there has been a more consistent downward trend but I'd want another solid weeks data before I call that a decline vs a flattening.

Also consider that Thursday 21st May was a public holiday on Sweden and they typically have troughs associated with weekends. An extra holiday affecting reporting will skew a 7 day average.