Everything will change after Coronavirus

niallo27

Beasty wrote: »

I think it largely will in Europe - my concern would be the US where they fly everywhere for meetings

Having said that I'm one of the "culprits" in terms of international travel. I would still want to get to the likes of Old Trafford for matches. I've got 800,000 Avios miles to cash in and it's always easier to preach than practice

Hang on your a Utd fan, ahhhh all them bans make sense now!!!!!!

Red Alert

Any positive changes are going to come from smaller things people decide to do in their own lives.

I think a lot of people have seen that remote working can work. This crisis has blown the anti-remote-work zealotry of many employers (notably and depressingly many in the tech sector) out of the water. Not everyone wants to remote work 100%, and many jobs simply can't be done remotely. But there are a good few jobs could be done with 1-2 days a week remote and going into the office the other days. Look at the carbon footprint savings, the reduced need for office space in cities, opening up more mixed-use buildings for housing, reduced childcare costs. People will start to demand the ability to work remotely, and will probably use this in a factor when moving jobs more than before.

I used to visit the supermarkets far more than I needed to, about 3-4 times a week in the car. I've now put together a computerised shopping list that syncs to my phone and have been surviving fine on visiting shops once a week.

I'm walking every day and getting my 10,000 steps. Prior to the crisis I was getting <5000 on many days.

Yurt2

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What’s a lazy dole cheating stoner going to do about it? Stick a candle in your window, clap your hands, and whinge about people not adhering to social distancing?

The amount of misanthropic narcissist fantasists imagining that society will somehow become the utopia where they imagined themselves having all the power to dictate the lives of other people is just not going to happen. The smelly Occupy types tried it a few years back, now Bill fcuking Gates is the current poster boy for social change. Bill Gates, billionaire philanthropist, the 1% of the 1%, and you think anyone’s going to come crying to you? :pac:

I hope for your own sake you were drunk when you posted that.

Blueshoe

RandomViewer wrote: »

Those who think everything will go back to normal aren't normal themselves, they are mostly people who worship money and have nothing else in their lives, the lockdown has left them bereft of anything to do and they can't interact socially when there's no money in it.

Given enough time everything will go back to the way it was. Jobs, bills, taxes, consumerism, capitalism etc.
Nothing has changed and nothing will change

MadYaker

Some changes we were forced to make will turn out to be improvements that will stick around. Id to see a cashless society, I've basically stopped using cash for about a year now anyway. More working from home or staggered office hours to ease conjestion would be good to see.

anewme

jill_valentine wrote: »

This American style ****e of imagining wealth as a character virtue is bizarre.

Hardest I've ever had to work was in all the lowest paid jobs I did. The best paid I've ever been was in jammy easy office jobs I was referred to by chance. I can say the same for most people I know.

We're all a few weeks difference from being poor, but short of a lotto win, funnily enough we're never within the same distance of being rich. In as dramatically unequal a society as we have in post Celtic Tiger crash Ireland, the average person is much closer and has much more in common with the poor than the rich, we shouldn't be labouring under any other delusion.

There's nothing wrong with being rich, but the idea they're just somehow a better class of people and deserve it all is the kind of thing kids might tell themselves to feel better.

No one says they are a better class of people? But not having financial worries at a time like this has to be a relief for people, lucky enough to find themselves in that circumstance, through, inheritance, luck, or hard work. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to be financially ok.

Not everyone who are not rich are a few weeks away from being poor either. There is a middle ground.

Canyon86

Red Alert wrote: »

Any positive changes are going to come from smaller things people decide to do in their own lives.

I think a lot of people have seen that remote working can work. This crisis has blown the anti-remote-work zealotry of many employers (notably and depressingly many in the tech sector) out of the water. Not everyone wants to remote work 100%, and many jobs simply can't be done remotely. But there are a good few jobs could be done with 1-2 days a week remote and going into the office the other days. Look at the carbon footprint savings, the reduced need for office space in cities, opening up more mixed-use buildings for housing, reduced childcare costs. People will start to demand the ability to work remotely, and will probably use this in a factor when moving jobs more than before.

I used to visit the supermarkets far more than I needed to, about 3-4 times a week in the car. I've now put together a computerised shopping list that syncs to my phone and have been surviving fine on visiting shops once a week.

I'm walking every day and getting my 10,000 steps. Prior to the crisis I was getting <5000 on many days.

I would agree with you, I work in the tech sector, WFH was not encouraged at all at all, there was the expectation fo make long tricky comutes each day to the office
Even in my own case I'd be working on servers based outside of ireland, so I could be working anywhere

One eyed Jack

Yurt! wrote: »

I hope for your own sake you were drunk when you posted that.

The point I was making is that there is no rationale behind the idea that people who have spent their lives achieving things would suddenly become dependent upon the people who have achieved nothing with their lives. Achievers don’t suddenly give up and think “ahh that’s it now, can’t do anything”, so they won’t be going crying to anyone. They’ll be rebuilding, while those who have achieved nothing with their lives will still be achieving nothing with their lives and complaining about what those people who have rebuilt their lives have, that they don’t.

anewme

nthclare wrote: »

Separating the wheat from the chaff and the air heads in the middle...

Survival of the fittest and the alpha male and responsible women will prosper...

100 percent. And on the friendships too.

My Dad is very ill and it shows who your friends are.

Antares35

Red Alert wrote: »

Any positive changes are going to come from smaller things people decide to do in their own lives.

I think a lot of people have seen that remote working can work. This crisis has blown the anti-remote-work zealotry of many employers (notably and depressingly many in the tech sector) out of the water. Not everyone wants to remote work 100%, and many jobs simply can't be done remotely. But there are a good few jobs could be done with 1-2 days a week remote and going into the office the other days. Look at the carbon footprint savings, the reduced need for office space in cities, opening up more mixed-use buildings for housing, reduced childcare costs. People will start to demand the ability to work remotely, and will probably use this in a factor when moving jobs more than before.

I used to visit the supermarkets far more than I needed to, about 3-4 times a week in the car. I've now put together a computerised shopping list that syncs to my phone and have been surviving fine on visiting shops once a week.

I'm walking every day and getting my 10,000 steps. Prior to the crisis I was getting <5000 on many days.

Agree with all of this but not sure re saving on childcare. Dont most WFH policies stipulate that appropriate childcare needs to be in place so that you can carry out your job undistracted? Obviously at the moment this is not possible but if it was a long term thing?

Most people in Ireland have no idea what poor even means. We have a great standard of life over here. Even people on the dole have smart phones and go on holidays to Tenerife and have branded clothes.

I earn less than the average wage but I still have my own house, car and everything I need in life.

Don’t feel the need to blame the “rich” for anything.
When people talk about equality it’s generally people wanting the wealthier people to give their money away.

peasant

Blueshoe wrote: »

Given enough time everything will go back to the way it was. Jobs, bills, taxes, consumerism, capitalism etc.
Nothing has changed and nothing will change

AAhhh dontthinkso ....

The 2008 recession caused the income in-equality scissors to open wider than ever before, stretching the ones in the middle to near or over breaking point. The ones that make it all happen, the ones that pay for it all. Running in their little wheels like hamsters on speed, going nowhere.

This time round, the wheel will be broken. Too many will have lost their jobs, their hours reduced, their businesses closed. Demand will disappear out of the market, as will some of the supply...the momentum to keep the wheel spinning will be gone.

I don't think there will be total economic devastation, the economy just won't work according to old patterns anymore. Many things/goods/services that we have become used to will just become extinct/scarce/expensive (air travel and cheap holliers being one prime example).

Whether we want to or whether we can even imagine it right now doesn't matter, we will need a new business model, the economy based on perpetual growth is dead (or at least limping very, very badly).

Sustainability, recycling and living within our means will replace the endless consumerism and waste. Not because some lefties tell us, but because that's going to be all that's left.

But ...if we're a bit clever about this, starting with clever individual choices, this could become a good thing, it could actually be nicer than what we've had before.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Beasty wrote: »

I think it largely will in Europe - my concern would be the US where they fly everywhere for meetings

Having said that I'm one of the "culprits" in terms of international travel. I would still want to get to the likes of Old Trafford for matches. I've got 800,000 Avios miles to cash in and it's always easier to preach than practice

I've been predicting this for a while. Enviornmental issues were pushing for reductions in air travel and meat consumption even before the virus let loose.

It's not a case of you can't go to Old Trafford, it's more a case of being a tad mor expensive and needing more organisation and more time to do it and travelling via land/sea.

donaghs

Deleted User wrote: »

Most people in Ireland have no idea what poor even means. We have a great standard of life over here. Even people on the dole have smart phones and go on holidays to Tenerife and have branded clothes.

I earn less than the average wage but I still have my own house, car and everything I need in life.

Don’t feel the need to blame the “rich” for anything.
When people talk about equality it’s generally people wanting the wealthier people to give their money away.

If the next recession is very bad, we might return to an older definition of poverty. i.e. struggling to provide food and heating. Not "People are living in poverty, if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living, which is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and resources people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities which are considered the norm for other people in society."

FrStone

jimmyrustle wrote: »

They really won't.

If working from home was such a viable option companies would have shut their physical workplaces years ago to save on rent. The ability to slack off and blame system issues is off the charts. Working from home is at best keeping heads above water. Ask anyone actually doing it, it's a clunky skeleton service at best. The missus does send me photos of 8 person meetings with 3 of the cameras blacked out.

Next someone is going to suggest we will have all become so enamoured with online shopping that this is the end of physical stores.


Only one I'd worry about is whether people become too used to using tap and go and it speeds up the end of cash (although then again, can it ever really end?).

In normal times I doubt I tap and go more than four times per year, it's a horrendous invention.

There would want to be a drastic improvement in Internet speeds before wfh really takes off.

MadYaker

peasant wrote: »

AAhhh dontthinkso ....

The 2008 recession caused the income in-equality scissors to open wider than ever before, stretching the ones in the middle to near or over breaking point. The ones that make it all happen, the ones that pay for it all. Running in their little wheels like hamsters on speed, going nowhere.

This time round, the wheel will be broken. Too many will have lost their jobs, their hours reduced, their businesses closed. Demand will disappear out of the market, as will some of the supply...the momentum to keep the wheel spinning will be gone.

I don't think there will be total economic devastation, the economy just won't work according to old patterns anymore. Many things/goods/services that we have become used to will just become extinct/scarce/expensive (air travel and cheap holliers being one prime example).

Whether we want to or whether we can even imagine it right now doesn't matter, we will need a new business model, the economy based on perpetual growth is dead (or at least limping very, very badly).

Sustainability, recycling and living within our means will replace the endless consumerism and waste. Not because some lefties tell us, but because that's going to be all that's left.

But ...if we're a bit clever about this, starting with clever individual choices, this could become a good thing, it could actually be nicer than what we've had before.

Lots of vagueness and lack of specifics. Why would cheap holidays dissapear if people still want cheap holidays? I hate to break it to you but governments and societies all over the world are working very hard to make sure we can pick up essentially where we left off. This is partly why were all on lockdown now. Most of the jobs that have been lost are in the services and hospitality sector. Those jobs will come back when the lockdown is over. People aren't suddently going to abandon pubs, hotels and restaurants. I certainly won't.

I think the break from all this stuff will have the opposite effect to what you propose. Levels of consumerism and debauchery are going to be off the scale when this is over. There is a massive amount of pent up energy and emotion thats going to be released and people aren't go to release it by living within their means and recycling all their waste. Capitalism is human nature.

seenitall

nthclare wrote: »

Around 8 of us
Two women and 5 men and Chris the hairdresser he's a ball of fun,the only gay in the bush he's the most optimistic guy in the group.

Why doesn't Chris count as a man? Is it cos he is gay? Or a hairdresser?

Aren't you bisexual yourself? Maybe you aren't a man OR a woman?

JPCN1

The_Brood wrote: »

99% of the "rich" do not deserve a lick of what they have. Either family inheretance, or they are good at coding or playing financial games with imaginary numbers. While the rest of us have to slave away to survive. That has to end by any and all means necessary.

Viva la revolution, the utopia of the Venezuela experience is too to be upon us.

peasant

MadYaker wrote: »

I think the break from all this stuff will have the opposite effect to what you propose. Levels of consumerism and debauchery are going to be off the scale when this is over. There is a massive amount of pent up energy and emotion thats going to be released and people aren't go to release it by living within their means and recycling all their waste. Capitalism is human nature.

We just have a time shift in our thinking, you and me

Think: WW I / Spanish flu ----> roaring twenties ----> great depression

You think just because we're facing a pandemic right now, we're in 1918 whereas I would say that we're talking about something more like 1929...hopefully we won't come out of it with another world war this time because we learnt something.


Or to be more specific...
I do not think that there will be enough people willing and able for large scale debauchery to kick-start the economy back to old-normal.
Sure, pints will be had once this is over...but I don't see people going into massive debt for an overpriced SUV anymore (for example) ...the fear of the next recession/pandemic will dampen that for sure, even if you still happen to have some savings at that point.

mariaalice

I had a few guesses about what will happen but nobody knows really.

Is it funny that somehow going back to full-on spend spend is seen as getting back at the lefties?

nthclare

MadYaker wrote: »

Some changes we were forced to make will turn out to be improvements that will stick around. Id to see a cashless society, I've basically stopped using cash for about a year now anyway. More working from home or staggered office hours to ease conjestion would be good to see.

And it could be done.
It would also offset our green house emissions.

But you'll always get some control freak who's only validation in Life is having his staff all around him and his whip by his side.

I think women who've kid's and are on top of their game in the cooperative world should be allowed to work from home.

I know some women who are highly organized and efficient who are typing out reports and are wizzards with accounts who are pissed off going in and out every day trying to fill in 5 8 hrs and have their work done by Wednesday and on Friday tie up a few loose ends.

No family Life,but are well capable of working with expertise and they're held prisoner in an office with the likes of some incel leering at them all day from over the partition.

Work should be validated on ability and efficiency rather than drain someone dry.

mariaalice

It would be nice if the changes in the airline industry cause the demise of things like sex tourism.

There will be more working from home onnce perfect wifi for everyone is sorted and issue like employees being allowed to pretend their laptop has no camera and they can only use sound for meetings.

Cars and the like as a status symbol with take a diver for a while.

For some, the constant being together will make them reconsider relationships.

Education and how it is delivered will change but not sure how yet.

At a fundamental level society will not change.

JoChervil

I think the world will change. Our priorities will change.

I hope it will be less celebrities in the media and the obsession about correcting their look.

Also I think it will be the end of globalisation. Countries and companies will want to be more self sufficient. While choosing suppliers they will look for ones closer to them. It will limit growth but it will be safer and promoting local business.

More work from home and more flexibility.

MadYaker

It's also worth noting that not everyone is taking a financial hit here. A lot of people are the opposite. Job unnaffected (or mental busy if you're in medical devices or healthcare) but nothing to spend all the earnings on because everything is shut. I've saved more in march than I did in the previous 2 months together.

Downlinz

jimmyrustle wrote: »

They really won't.

If working from home was such a viable option companies would have shut their physical workplaces years ago to save on rent. The ability to slack off and blame system issues is off the charts. Working from home is at best keeping heads above water. Ask anyone actually doing it, it's a clunky skeleton service at best. The missus does send me photos of 8 person meetings with 3 of the cameras blacked out.

I've worked from home with Apple as the majority of their Irish staff does and it's not at all as your describe. There's no "slacking off" when you have metrics and deadlines to meet and screen sharing exists so any technical issues can be walked through with your supervisor just like in person. You have constant contact with your supervisor and colleagues through messaging and regular group and one to one meetings on video. Even casual video chat with colleagues during breaktime if you wish. There's really no drawback to it.

Management maintains working from home is the future and this will only be accelerated after the pandemic. It's an obvious evolution of the office environment and companies which haven't explored it yet are slow to change but this will force their hand.

landofthetree

The_Brood wrote: »

You have to be a real piece of garbage to not want major change. There is enough money out there to have a hospital fully equiped on every street corner, but no we cant have that, we need to keep the top 1 percent and 10 percent as rich as ever before. Better we die and live as economic slaves than rock the boat and demand fairness, right?

If the government took every single cent of money that Irelands billionaires had it wouldn't even pay for the public finances for 6 months.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_billionaires_by_net_worth

If we want better hospitals we need to pay more tax like other European countries do. FFS we dont even pay water charges. Plus our property tax is much lower than elsewhere.


Finland 0.32-0.75% on regular housing.
Denmark 1%
Sweden 1.5%.
Ireland 0.18%

Funsterdelux

Hopefully this pandemic will be the great leveller.

I would love for major changes, changes to how we work, how we holiday/travel, how we educate and how we consume.

With all our technical advancement the working week/hours havent changed much if at all in 60/70 years. Working from home is/has now changed, which has a positive knock on effect on traffic etc. The tech for this has been around for at least 20 years.

Holidays/travel is/has been too cheap for far too long, the sense of entitlement we in the west when it comes to travel/holidays is sickening. We think we work hard and deserve to go/do what we like but just think how hard a majority of the worlds pop have to work just to feed themselves.

Kids are sent to schools for 13plus years just to come out at the end of it to work for the economy. Im not against schooling, I just think like most things it needs radical changes if we are to change how we live. Look at the mess the leaving cert is having. Im not hearing the same when it comes to 3rd level exams, we need more flexibility.

Comsumption. Well I wont go on a rant, we have finite resources on this planet, so we really need to take a good hard look at what we buy and from where, how long will it last etc.

If we changed half of these things half of the time it would go some way towards reducing the damage we are causing to the planet.

Something that really touched us (my partner and I) was the other day when our 7 year old said he didnt want things to change, he didnt want it to go back to normal (apart from not being able to go see his grandparents)
Which leads to family time, think about it for 99.99% of our speicies existence we've lived in family groups/tribes/clans then suddenly after the industrial revolution the way we lived changed completely. We are our ancestors we are still mentally/physically the same as 100s/1000s of years ago, and people wonder why theres so many psychological/mental ailments.

snotboogie

I've been a bit disturbed by a lot of the commentary on what a post Covid-19 world will look like. I have noticed an undertone that increased societal and global isolation is a good thing. Direct human interaction is, more than I have ever seen before, being described in frivolous terms. The main points I have seen are:

(i) Huge increases in working from home
(ii) The death of large numbers physical retail and social venues
(iii) A seismic reduction in air travel, both for leisure and business
(iv) A reversal of urbanization and increased dispersed living primarily because of (i) and (ii)

Don't get me wrong there are some positives to all of the points above but taken together are we racing towards mass isolation?

Upforthematch

snotboogie wrote: »

I've been a bit disturbed by a lot of the commentary on what a post Covid-19 world will look like. I have noticed an undertone that increased societal and global isolation is a good thing. Direct human interaction is, more than I have ever seen before, being described in frivolous terms. The main points I have seen are:

(i) Huge increases in working from home
(ii) The death of large numbers physical retail and social venues
(iii) A seismic reduction in air travel, both for leisure and business
(iv) A reversal of urbanization and increased dispersed living primarily because of (i) and (ii)

Don't get me wrong there are some positives to all of the points above but taken together are we racing towards mass isolation?

I doubt it somehow. That is someone projecting the current situation into a future where people won't be fearing for their health by standing within 2 metres of someone else.

There may be more working from home, I think everything else will return.

boege

Gonna put my tuppence worth into this debate.

As this pandemic eases, I think the world is going to attempt to back to the way it was but I expect any return to normality will be very slow as this virus is highly virulent. There is no realistic possibility of a vaccine or protection from herd infection for the intermediate period (3-24 months) and the virus is not showing strong evidence of seasonality so it is here to stay.
As a result the risk of reinfection will dictate how this plays out. We will see a very slow and gradual lifting of restrictions with social distancing continuing to play a strong role. Any activity that involves people spending time in close proximity to each other, runs the risk of kicking of reinfection and will be the last type of restriction to be removed.

If the above holds one can then start to see how a return will pay out over the next 3 to 12 months.
Initial Phase (3-6 months)
Opening of shops and business with restricted access and use of infection control measures. Work at home will continue as a tool for controlling infection.
Opening of public transport with use of infection control measures - spacing.
Opening of takeaways – (longing for a descent indian!)
Removal of travel restrictions within a state.
Opening of all outdoor leisure activities where large groups are unlikely to congregate – expect to see restricted car parking number sin places like Glendalough. I foresee a boom in outdoor activities.

Longer terms (6 months +):
Pubs, restaurants – maybe places with ourdoor facilities that can maintain some social separation will open earlier
Events with large attendances: Football, horseracing, Concerts, festivals, etc. – think 2021.
Travel between states – be interesting if having to be ‘certified safe to travel’ will emerge

All of this will only happen when the government has in place the ability to identify and control any further outbreaks. This is why they are trying to ramp up real time (next day result) testing and tracing as this will help minimise further outbreaks. My feeling is that once real time testing is in place (and number shave fallen significantly) we will begin to hear government talk about the slow removal of restrictions. However, I fear that pint in the pub, which we are all longing for, is some way off.