Everything will change after Coronavirus

jimmyrustle

MadYaker wrote: »

It's also worth noting that not everyone is taking a financial hit here. A lot of people are the opposite. Job unnaffected (or mental busy if you're in medical devices or healthcare) but nothing to spend all the earnings on because everything is shut. I've saved more in march than I did in the previous 2 months together.

It would seem that remote working means, nearly unbelievably, a majority of people are still in employment and will come out of this feckin loaded. IIRC there were over 2,000,000 workers in the economy, and only something like 600,000 are on the COVID 19 payment. All up 2/3rds of people are making serious savings and a good chunk will fancy a shopping splurge come May (or whenever).

Add to that essentially nobody will be going on holiday to Spain etc this year (or we should hope they don't if the virus is still active there)

I'd imagine the big snow of 2018 was a wake up call to firms to invest in remote working, as clunky and skeletal as it often is.

snotboogie

Funsterdelux wrote: »

Holidays/travel is/has been too cheap for far too long, the sense of entitlement we in the west when it comes to travel/holidays is sickening. We think we work hard and deserve to go/do what we like but just think how hard a majority of the worlds pop have to work just to feed themselves.

So it would be a good thing if we went back to holidays and travel being only for the super rich? The idea of a middle class person feeling entitled to a holiday is sickening?

International travel is not a Western phenomenon any more either, China is the number one exporter of international tourists in the world. The majority of the worlds population is no longer starving either, https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute less than 10% of the worlds population is in extreme poverty in a large part due to globalization spawned by the very same international connectivity you are deriding.

jimmyrustle

Downlinz wrote: »

I've worked from home with Apple as the majority of their Irish staff does and it's not at all as your describe. .

Apple.

Yes. Apple is entirely comparable to some call centre or bank that pays 10.50 an hour and still uses 15 year old Windows software like 98 percent of companies out there.

TheBoyConor

The_Brood wrote: »

99% of the "rich" do not deserve a lick of what they have. Either family inheretance, or they are good at coding or playing financial games with imaginary numbers. While the rest of us have to slave away to survive. That has to end by any and all means necessary.

So someone who is a motivated and driven, either being a gifted computer programmer or who is a whizz at financial matters does not deserve to reap some reward that is proportionate to their skill and drive?

Do you think some lazy beared in-cel stoner living in their mother's basement deserves an equal slice of the money pie?

Jesus lad, even the most hard line isolationist communist regimes wouldn't subscribe to that level of "equality".

And it is not equality. It is an equality of pay reglarless of education, skill and personal motivation.

JL555

The_Brood wrote: »

You have to be a real piece of garbage to not want major change. There is enough money out there to have a hospital fully equiped on every street corner, but no we cant have that, we need to keep the top 1 percent and 10 percent as rich as ever before. Better we die and live as economic slaves than rock the boat and demand fairness, right?

There will always be people better off than others, whether it's by 50k, 1million or 100million quid. Tell me, what would you do if you were on 100k per year and the person next you was on 10k per year, would you go halves so you'd both be on 50k per year? Would that be the type of fairness that your taking about? We live in a capitalist society, socialism and communism do not work, check the history books, the other alternative is to go and live in complete isolation in the Amazon or some other rainforest and see how that utopia works out. The we live in the 'west' might not be perfect or even totally fair in each of our eyes, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives out there.

peasant

jimmyrustle wrote: »

IIRC there were over 2,000,000 workers in the economy, and only something like 600,000 are on the COVID 19 payment. All up 2/3rds of people are making serious savings and a good chunk will fancy a shopping splurge come May (or whenever).

I like your optimism

You're forgetting one thing though...those 2/3rds that still have a job will be milked to pay for the others that don't...and the extra PPE expenses, the additional state debt, the n-th reform of our health service, etc, pp.

But perhaps you're right ...it might be better to spend your savings in May (or whenever) before they sneakily take them off you.

Fred Cryton

pgj2015 wrote: »

I have heard a few people saying that the result will be the poor taking back from the rich. I hate this way of thinking. i am not rich but the goal is to be rich, that is why i work 7 days a week. the people i heard talking about this taking from the rich, were lazy stoners who never worked a day in their life. i hate this kind of leftist thinking.

id rather be dead than live in a world were the lazy people with no ambition have as much as hard working people who contribute to society.

Well said. "Equality" really means tyranny because to have equality of any kind you have to suppress (forcefully) those who work hard, have talent and show initiative and reward the lazy and spiteful in society.



A leftist society, or an equal society as they themselves describe it, would be a living nightmare.

Funsterdelux

snotboogie wrote: »

So it would be a good thing if we went back to holidays and travel being only for the super rich? The idea of a middle class person feeling entitled to a holiday is sickening?

International travel is not a Western phenomenon any more either, China is the number one exporter of international tourists in the world. The majority of the worlds population is no longer starving either, https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute less than 10% of the worlds population is in extreme poverty in a large part due to globalization spawned by the very same international connectivity you are deriding.

Western + non western middleclass then!

I never said they were starving, I was just comparing work rates and outcomes.

pure.conya

donaghs wrote: »

If the next recession is very bad, we might return to an older definition of poverty. i.e. struggling to provide food and heating. Not "People are living in poverty, if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living, which is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and resources people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities which are considered the norm for other people in society."

Christ during the last recession over 1.5m people in this country barely had €50 left at the end of the month after paying the bills

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/16-million-of-us-have-just-50-left-at-end-of-the-month-28959590.html

pure.conya

MadYaker wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but governments and societies all over the world are working very hard to make sure we can pick up essentially where we left off.

Governments around the world really are hoping everybody is stupid enough to do just that

beggars_bush

pure.conya wrote: »

Christ during the last recession over 1.5m people in this country barely had €50 left at the end of the month after paying the bills

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/16-million-of-us-have-just-50-left-at-end-of-the-month-28959590.html

That's because a lot of them were paying for stuff bought in the Celtic tiger economy

A lot of people will have over stretched themselves financially this time

pure.conya

Funsterdelux wrote: »

Hopefully this pandemic will be the great leveller.

I would love for major changes, changes to how we work, how we holiday/travel, how we educate and how we consume.

With all our technical advancement the working week/hours havent changed much if at all in 60/70 years. Working from home is/has now changed, which has a positive knock on effect on traffic etc. The tech for this has been around for at least 20 years.

Holidays/travel is/has been too cheap for far too long, the sense of entitlement we in the west when it comes to travel/holidays is sickening. We think we work hard and deserve to go/do what we like but just think how hard a majority of the worlds pop have to work just to feed themselves.

Kids are sent to schools for 13plus years just to come out at the end of it to work for the economy. Im not against schooling, I just think like most things it needs radical changes if we are to change how we live. Look at the mess the leaving cert is having. Im not hearing the same when it comes to 3rd level exams, we need more flexibility.

Comsumption. Well I wont go on a rant, we have finite resources on this planet, so we really need to take a good hard look at what we buy and from where, how long will it last etc.

If we changed half of these things half of the time it would go some way towards reducing the damage we are causing to the planet.

Something that really touched us (my partner and I) was the other day when our 7 year old said he didnt want things to change, he didnt want it to go back to normal (apart from not being able to go see his grandparents)
Which leads to family time, think about it for 99.99% of our speicies existence we've lived in family groups/tribes/clans then suddenly after the industrial revolution the way we lived changed completely. We are our ancestors we are still mentally/physically the same as 100s/1000s of years ago, and people wonder why theres so many psychological/mental ailments.

Hear hear

By christ some people will cling onto the old ways by hook or by crook and feck anybody that is struggling once they're OK

Downlinz

jimmyrustle wrote: »

Apple.

Yes. Apple is entirely comparable to some call centre or bank that pays 10.50 an hour and still uses 15 year old Windows software like 98 percent of companies out there.

I don't see why it's not relevant for any office staff. Staff can bring their office computer home, the company can pay their broadband bill. What's the issue regardless of their salary?
If the software is old and slow it hardly makes a difference whether it's being used at home or in the workplace for productivity.

millb

Funsterdelux wrote: »

Hopefully this pandemic will be the great leveller.

I would love for major changes, changes to how we work, how we holiday/travel, how we educate and how we consume.

With all our technical advancement the working week/hours havent changed much if at all in 60/70 years. Working from home is/has now changed, which has a positive knock on effect on traffic etc. The tech for this has been around for at least 20 years.

Holidays/travel is/has been too cheap for far too long, the sense of entitlement we in the west when it comes to travel/holidays is sickening. We think we work hard and deserve to go/do what we like but just think how hard a majority of the worlds pop have to work just to feed themselves.

Kids are sent to schools for 13plus years just to come out at the end of it to work for the economy. Im not against schooling, I just think like most things it needs radical changes if we are to change how we live. Look at the mess the leaving cert is having. Im not hearing the same when it comes to 3rd level exams, we need more flexibility.

Comsumption. Well I wont go on a rant, we have finite resources on this planet, so we really need to take a good hard look at what we buy and from where, how long will it last etc.

If we changed half of these things half of the time it would go some way towards reducing the damage we are causing to the planet.

Something that really touched us (my partner and I) was the other day when our 7 year old said he didnt want things to change, he didnt want it to go back to normal (apart from not being able to go see his grandparents)
Which leads to family time, think about it for 99.99% of our speicies existence we've lived in family groups/tribes/clans then suddenly after the industrial revolution the way we lived changed completely. We are our ancestors we are still mentally/physically the same as 100s/1000s of years ago, and people wonder why theres so many psychological/mental ailments.

Great post.. the global village has created great inequality..our prior expectations and values were local or community based... now thanks to the global brands and "influencers" plus a digital economy its a global race / multinational dominance etc .. In fairness to the EU they have had policies of diversity, uniqueness, SME, cultural depth etc..
Unlike our "global" friends who have a cut-throat desire for £ cheapness, dominance, market, greatness, control, value at all costs.

I hope we value better life-balance and have greater acceptance of those +ive values that have dominated our history and ancestry.

EG sustainable activities, delayed gratification, resilience, family, parish, social inclusion and self dependancy..

zell12

Denmark is starting to relax some restrictions next week

"It's important we don't keep Denmark closed for longer than we need to, I don't think the normal life we had before coronavirus will come back," the prime minister told Danish public broadcaster DR. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52226763

s1ippy

Presuming that there will be an "after" this.

If we can vaccinate against this virus, when business as usual resumes, humans will be replaced by automation wherever possible. This is already happening in Supermarkets and banks and while currently it's not entirely possible to replace a workforce with tech that can do the job, it's what industries are working towards right now.

At the Global Education Conference two years ago, educators were advised that the didactic teaching methods (learning off facts through rote and repetitive recitation) would not be of utility in future, either in jobs markets or to help people function at all in society. I'm not sure that method was ever useful for those things.

The world's best education systems use play-based strategies for much longer now before introducing formal classroom tuition so that children are able to engage with their worlds on a level that matters to them and they retain things better when they enjoy themselves while learning.

This World Economic Forum notes that 65% of children entering school today will end up doing jobs that haven't even been invented yet.

The gap between rich and poor is going to become rapidly vaster for those who continue to go all in on the current system. Naturally the people who have the money are never keen to share it and with no jobs to be had, this punitive culture will probably lead to many more people choosing to disengage with the system. The consequences of this will probably be an increase of violence, aggression and incarceration perpetrated by the enforcers of the new system in place.

Anyone on the €350 enjoy it because it's likely the only handout you're ever likely to get from now on. There will be less and less state aid as the exchequer has fewer funds to draw on. Taxes will also rise rapidly in the latter months of this year regardless of if we manage to get out of the lockdown cycle.

cajonlardo

Tell you what hit me straight away.

The Defense Forces are undervalued and under paid in this country. We have people serving working ridiculous long hours, weekends and holidays yet they still qualify for family income supplement.

But the bit that really hit me was when I met Defense Force Vets working as unpaid volunteers down at the Covid 19 testing station.

Treated like crap when they were in uniform but among the very first to place themselves in the thick of it as soon as their country needed them.
Without a selfish thought.
Class act right there and you can keep your riches, fancy house or ridiculous car - because you either have it or you do not.This lot have it in fcukin spades .
"By Our Deeds Let Us Be Known"

LoughNeagh2017

Indeed, men like me will continue our isolated lives and people will still laugh at us and make fun of us even though they lived our lives for a while and couldn't cope with the loneliness themselves. I am a misanthrope.

Arghus

Things won't be same after this.

Governments across the world are spending billions upon billions to fight this and at the same time economies are retracting at a furious rate that has never been seen before in history.

This is going to have a profound effect on economic, monetary and social policy across the entire globe, even if it all ends quicker than could otherwise be expected. To think otherwise is be oblivious to reality.

snotboogie

Funsterdelux wrote: »

Western + non western middleclass then!

I never said they were starving, I was just comparing work rates and outcomes.

But how will reducing air traffic help 3rd world people? In fact the opposite has been the case, globalisation, partly driven by international air travel, has massively reduced global poverty.

Antares35

MadYaker wrote: »

It's also worth noting that not everyone is taking a financial hit here. A lot of people are the opposite. Job unnaffected (or mental busy if you're in medical devices or healthcare) but nothing to spend all the earnings on because everything is shut. I've saved more in march than I did in the previous 2 months together.

Same, throwing huge amounts off the credit card and credit union - should be debt free in a month and looking forward to getting rid of the p*xy credit card for good Not having to pay pet sitter while I work, petrol to get to and from work etc. even the odd cup of tea or sandwich before college at night is knocked on the head now as lectures are online - it all adds up.

That said, OH and I are well aware that our fortunate position could change at any moment. I'm well aware that we could be asked to take pay cuts depending on how our companies fare - and I wouldn't even really mind this compared to the alternative

We will probably all be paying more for the next few years anyway to pay back all the emergency payments.

LoughNeagh2017

pgj2015 wrote: »

I have heard a few people saying that the result will be the poor taking back from the rich. I hate this way of thinking. i am not rich but the goal is to be rich, that is why i work 7 days a week. the people i heard talking about this taking from the rich, were lazy stoners who never worked a day in their life. i hate this kind of leftist thinking.

id rather be dead than live in a world were the lazy people with no ambition have as much as hard working people who contribute to society.

You already live in such a world, it is only the high IQ and mentally healthy who get to live high quality lives. If you are low IQ or are mentally ill chances are you will be forced into a minimum wage slave position and the unemployed have a higher quality of life, I know this as I have been on both sides of fence. This is why I shed no tears for these stressed out doctors, they were extremely lucky in life in the first place to be born with a mind that allowed becoming a wealthy doctor a possibility

FloatingVoter

s1ippy wrote: »

Presuming that there will be an "after" this.

If we can vaccinate against this virus, when business as usual resumes, humans will be replaced by automation wherever possible. This is already happening in Supermarkets and banks and while currently it's not entirely possible to replace a workforce with tech that can do the job, it's what industries are working towards right now.

At the Global Education Conference two years ago, educators were advised that the didactic teaching methods (learning off facts through rote and repetitive recitation) would not be of utility in future, either in jobs markets or to help people function at all in society. I'm not sure that method was ever useful for those things.

The world's best education systems use play-based strategies for much longer now before introducing formal classroom tuition so that children are able to engage with their worlds on a level that matters to them and they retain things better when they enjoy themselves while learning.

The jobs our children will be doing haven't

Yup, the work of surgeons and journalists has already been replaced by robots. Albeit minor surgeries and smalllprint financial and sports journalism (based solely on the markets and the results).



The last jobs that go will be the creative ones - IT is hopeless at poetry and couldn't paint or sculpt for toffee. Even there you could argue that the movie business has descended into the abyss....does there actually need to be a human mind behind Avengers XXIII !



Most people in office jobs are basically part of an algorithm that can be translated into instructions.....ie. programmed. They won't strike, work 24/7 and don't need a pension plan.


We're moving towards a dystopia not a utopia.

Lavinia

Nothing will change after this, mark my words. It will all go back to same or even worse for ordinary people.

pure.conya

beggars_bush wrote: »

That's because a lot of them were paying for stuff bought in the Celtic tiger economy

A lot of people will have over stretched themselves financially this time

Jesus wept

pure.conya

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How often have you killed yourself?

Just wait to the full extent of the damage to people's mental health starts to really get on top, lots of people really aren't handling this very well at all at all

nthclare

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

Indeed, men like me will continue our isolated lives and people will still laugh at us and make fun of us even though they lived our lives for a while and couldn't cope with the loneliness themselves. I am a misanthrope.

I hear you, I don't really care about what the normies or sheeple think to be honest.
I don't let myself be herded into perpetual debt, or be bored senseless by topic's about car's, pub's, cheesy holidays, changing the kitchen every few years, the latest gossip about some z list celeb in D4 , how their partners won't sleep with them after 6 months of marriage, affairs, banger at the weekends, culchie townie hybridised D4 accents.
Yeuch what a way to live, validation by castration.


I've nothing against them either as they pretty much leave me alone and we're created by our social constructs, I was one at one stage and had enough of that flamboyant servitude to the machine...

There's people with holiday home's up here in the Burren and now and again I'd go to farmers markets or the cosy café or restaurant and you'd bump into them.
Some are neighbors, for a few month's, and they're exactly the type of people who are worshipped by the masses and live like you and I with their partners and 2 kid's.

Away from the madding crouds, some of ye watch them on DVD and Netflix or listen to them on Spotify people like myself can have a flask of tea and go fishing and hiking with them and at the end of the day anonymity and living remotely has a lot of irony...

Go figure

Arghus

This is a dumb thread.

PommieBast

_Brian wrote: »

Can’t see anything changing radically. Look after the ‘08 meltdown how quickly people returned to materialistic ways and spending.

Looking at the upcoming corporate debt crisis it is clear the "never again" from back then was hollow.

millb

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Yup, the work of surgeons and journalists has already been replaced by robots. Albeit minor surgeries and smalllprint financial and sports journalism (based solely on the markets and the results).

The last jobs that go will be the creative ones - IT is hopeless at poetry and couldn't paint or sculpt for toffee. Even there you could argue that the movie business has descended into the abyss....does there actually need to be a human mind behind Avengers XXIII !

Most people in office jobs are basically part of an algorithm that can be translated into instructions.....ie. programmed. They won't strike, work 24/7 and don't need a pension plan.

We're moving towards a dystopia not a utopia.

Change is constant..

Creative activity, care-givers inc police/army, R&D and bespoke folks like builders / maintenance will all be needed. The short-gig economy will continue to expand.

While the global village has decreased poverty it has also made the planet more unstable and "green" activities / power / innovation needs to be progressed.

Core traits of people won't change but the world, EU & global policy and Ireland's role will all evolve..