Everything will change after Coronavirus

TuringBot47

jill_valentine wrote: »

So I can say with my own authority that a sixty hour work week in IT is not equal to a a sixty hour work week in a retail job or a job outdoors.

Yeah... moving stuff from one place to another may be physically demanding but doesn't mean that the amount you sweat equates to how much you contribute to a company.

Move to Russia if you want communism.

nthclare

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Nope.
I've worked in those sort of jobs for 5 years while paying to put myself through college. 13 hour days, cleaned toilets, worked damn hard.

We live in a capitalist society where skills in demand command more money.

If anything you'll find all those jobs you listed are probably high on the list of ones at risk of being automated.
Amazon opened cashier-less stores in the US as a trial.

I hear Facebook and Google could get into trouble but seemingly they're worth billions, but only in stocks and shares and advertising revenue etc

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these start looking for subscriptions soon enough, the market value of these companies is hear say.

pure.conya

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Nope.
I've worked in those sort of jobs for 5 years while paying to put myself through college. 13 hour days, cleaned toilets, worked damn hard.

We live in a capitalist society where skills in demand command more money.

If anything you'll find all those jobs you listed are probably high on the list of ones at risk of being automated.
Amazon opened cashier-less stores in the US as a trial.

What about all the skilled and licenced truck and delivery drivers who are responsible for delivering every single essential we need to survive that are on borrowed time waiting for automation to wipe out their industry

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats the problem we need to fix, keep the borders closed and work on that one instead.

Fair point, but then we need to increase the wages for said jobs so that they're attractive to nationals who don't have jobs.

That or you simply don't crare about the work done in the first place and don't see the nessecity.

jill_valentine

Ace2007 wrote: »

If in the last 12 years you haven't managed to save the equivalent of 3/6 months of expenses, then yes you have been doing something wrong.

Two of my employers shut down with no notice. Was downsized out of two others as a last in/first out casualty. I've never had a credit card, haven't left the country in years, don't have a car, kid or pets, and for some of that period worked nixers in addition to working full time. Have had some medical issues, and have had to help out at home the odd time.

I was actually just coming around to a place of financial security when I could really start saving this year, so I'm not as badly off as I might be, but I'm relatively lucky. A lot of industries full of "self employed" and contract employees just evaporated.

TuringBot47

pure.conya wrote: »

What about all the skilled and licenced truck and delivery drivers who are responsible for delivering every single essential we need to survive that are on borrowed time waiting for automation to wipe out their industry

"Skilled" ?

They passed a driving test, just like the vast majority of adults.
Granted, a little more advanced, but still only requires primary school education.

If they're on borrowed time, then what are they doing to upskill ?

TuringBot47

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair point, but then we need to increase the wages for said jobs so that they're attractive to nationals who don't have jobs.

Or gradually reduce social welfare based on how long you are on the registry.

jill_valentine

TuringBot47 wrote: »

We live in a capitalist society where skills in demand command more money.

So you're all for paying cleaners more after all then?

Greentopia

Blueshoe wrote: »

What was your remaining income after the government put it's hand in your pocket to run the welfare state?

Sounds like a miserable place where laziness is rewarded with handouts and entrepreneurship and hardwork is punished with high taxes

I paid 33% tax in Sweden. For that I had high quality public services and a universal healthcare system I could rely on. It's a progressive tax system. You earn more you pay more and Swedes are happy to pay more. Yes happy.

A miserable place... yes that's why they're consistently in the top ranked happiest nations on earth alongside the other Nordic countries. Denmark currently occupies the top spot.

Swedes are far from lazy. They work hard and more importantly they work smart and are innovators and early adaptors in new technology. More than two thirds already worked from home even before the pandemic.

There's no such thing as nightmare 3 hour commutes for those who do travel to work. Public transport is extensive and high quality.

New parents get 480 days for staying home with their children, 240 days each or 480 for a single parent. If your child is sick you can stay home to look after them and sell get paid.
Childcare is excellent high quality, state run, universal and affordable for all at a maximum of 3% of your salary. In some Kommunes it's actually free.

If you lose your job there you get 80% of your salary if you're signed up to one of the unemployment insurance which about 80% of the population are.

They're very good at using the resources they have to maximise their quality of life. Same mentality the Germans have actually in my experience of life there.
Sweden is a stable, safe and wealthy country.

Laziness is not rewarded there. If you're lazy in Sweden you do not get income related unemployment (unemployment benefit) because it's based on social insurance contributions from previous employment during the last 12 months. It's 80% of salary for the first 200 days of unemployment then reduced to 70% up to 300 days. You do NOT get paid A-Kassa (unemployment insurance, like our unemployment benefit) after 300 days (or 450 days if you're a parent) unless you find some paid work in the meantime and can top up your A-Kassa contributions.

Maximum you would get without an employment record and being a member of an A-Kassa on their "dole" is 320kr per day. About €30. That will not get you any kind of quality of life in high cost Sweden.

if you're unemployed you have to register at the Swedish Public Employment Service (Arbetsförmedlingen), make an individual action plan and submit an activity report every month where you describe what you have done to try to find a job. There is no such thing as being left languishing on the dole for months or years doing nothing as is often the case here.

It's not perfect, no country is, and there are aspects of life I missed from this country, but it does offer a very high standard of living for the vast majority of its people.

Ace2007

jill_valentine wrote: »

Two of my employers shut down with no notice. Was downsized out of two others as a last in/first out casualty. I've never had a credit card, haven't left the country in years, don't have a car, kid or pets, and for some of that period worked nixers in addition to working full time. Have had some medical issues, and have had to help out at home the odd time.

I was actually just coming around to a place of financial security when I could really start saving this year, so I'm not as badly off as I might be, but I'm relatively lucky. A lot of industries full of "self employed" and contract employees just evaporated.

Example of an industry that has evaporated? A lot of companies have looked outside the box and found new ways to keep going,

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

pgj2015 wrote: »

I have heard a few people saying that the result will be the poor taking back from the rich. I hate this way of thinking. i am not rich but the goal is to be rich, that is why i work 7 days a week. the people i heard talking about this taking from the rich, were lazy stoners who never worked a day in their life. i hate this kind of leftist thinking.

id rather be dead than live in a world were the lazy people with no ambition have as much as hard working people who contribute to society.

People need to think on a global scale.

Irish people are almost all among the global rich. And we've mostly done very little to deserve it.

For what it's worth, I don't think this crisis will lead to greater equality. It will bring about greater inequality.

Ubbquittious

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Ok so where are we going to get all the cleaners etc from? Cleaners are pretty much all immigrants in offices, hotels etc. Same goes for many other low paid jobs. Irish people wont do those jobs any more.

I have been into many an office and spotted people doing fcuk all, playing solitaire, long personal phone calls while the boss is out the door. Hand them a mop and a brush and yer problem is sorted. Irish people won't do them if they have the soft option available to them

TuringBot47

jill_valentine wrote: »

So you're all for paying cleaners more after all then?

They're doing the same job they've been paid to do.
Maybe they'll go on strike like other unions have in the past at important points in time.

Blueshoe

Greentopia wrote: »

I paid 33% tax in Sweden. For that I had high quality public services and a universal healthcare system I could rely on. It's a progressive tax system. You earn more you pay more and Swedes are happy to pay more. Yes happy.

A miserable place... yes that's why they're consistently in the top ranked happiest nations on earth alongside the other Nordic countries. Denmark currently occupies the top spot.

Swedes are far from lazy. They work hard and more importantly they work smart and are innovators and early adaptors in new technology. More than two thirds already worked from home even before the pandemic.

There's no such thing as nightmare 3 hour commutes for those who do travel to work. Public transport is extensive and high quality.

New parents get 480 days for staying home with their children, 240 days each or 480 for a single parent. If your child is sick you can stay home to look after them and sell get paid.
Childcare is excellent high quality, state run, universal and affordable for all at a maximum of 3% of your salary. In some Kommunes it's actually free.

If you lose your job there you get 80% of your salary if you're signed up to one of the unemployment insurance which about 80% of the population are.

They're very good at using the resources they have to maximise their quality of life. Same mentality the Germans have actually in my experience of life there.
Sweden is a stable, safe and wealthy country.

Laziness is not rewarded there. If you're lazy in Sweden you do not get income related unemployment (unemployment benefit) because it's based on social insurance contributions from previous employment during the last 12 months. It's 80% of salary for the first 200 days of unemployment then reduced to 70% up to 300 days. You do NOT get paid A-Kassa (unemployment insurance, like our unemployment benefit) after 300 days (or 450 days if you're a parent) unless you find some paid work in the meantime and can top up your A-Kassa contributions.

Maximum you would get without an employment record and being a member of an A-Kassa on their "dole" is 320kr per day. About €30. That will not get you any kind of quality of life in high cost Sweden.

if you're unemployed you have to register at the Swedish Public Employment Service (Arbetsförmedlingen), make an individual action plan and submit an activity report every month where you describe what you have done to try to find a job. There is no such thing as being left languishing on the dole for months or years doing nothing as is often the case here.

It's not perfect, no country is, and there are aspects of life I missed from this country, but it does offer a very high standard of living for the vast majority of its people.

Well there you go. I learned something. I was wrong if that's the case. Good explanation.

Why do you think Sweden has so many single occupant houses?

jill_valentine

Ace2007 wrote: »

Example of an industry that has evaporated? A lot of companies have looked outside the box and found new ways to keep going,

Events being the obvious one. That's a not insignificant subsector that cannot really be pivoted into anything else, and it includes trade shows which are vital to other small businesses with a great product which can speak for itself, and a lot of stuff with involvement in tourism and hospitality. It can't really be replicated online, and all the supporting services like large scale electrical, printing, etc take a wallop too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Or gradually reduce social welfare based on how long you are on the registry.

Wouldn't be opposed to the idea to be honest - but you (should) pay people as much as you think their job is worth.

Mr. teddywinkles

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Yeah... moving stuff from one place to another may be physically demanding but doesn't mean that the amount you sweat equates to how much you contribute to a company.

Move to Russia if you want communism.

Is mental capability an achievement? Some of the laziest cnuts I know are smart. Nah. So is a real skill to use your hands to build something complicated. ya I reckon it's a skill. I'd say yes. And yes if your physically doing something that cannot be done by robot or machine. Your contributing big time. True the way the saying goes. Arrogance is borne of ignorance.

renticular

The_Brood wrote: »

99% of the "rich" do not deserve a lick of what they have. Either family inheritance, or they are good at coding or playing financial games with imaginary numbers. While the rest of us have to slave away to survive. That has to end by any and all means necessary.

Not Quite sure that's not a sweeping statement on the wealthy, I've met and known some 'rich' & hard working people thoroughly deserved their bank balance,

absurd idea we level the playing field and reward not just idiocy but sloth would drive what money there is here elsewhere, together with shops and services they and us use

snotboogie

nthclare wrote: »

There's new age crusties in East Clare who's bank accounts will do their grandkids a lifetime.

Living the simple life and being creative, holidays to India and I never judge a book by it's cover.

They look like they've nothing but go into their house's and it's a different story, insulation, Nordic stoves, solid Oak kitchens etc
Jacuzzi's, meditation rooms etc

So they're rich kids cosplaying as rural farmers?

ednwireland

AllForIt wrote: »

No it won't, life will go back to normal.

Socialists and leftists seem to think that society will change in some fundamental way when this is all over.

It's always the politically disadvantaged that would suggest something like this. They are currently wetting themselves to use this crisis to further their political objectives.

Any changes will be trivial. No seismic change.

Can't wait to get back to normal.

agree totally although it may be a while as outbreaks will keep popping up until a vaccine is available

TuringBot47

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Wouldn't be opposed to the idea to be honest - but you (should) pay people as much as you think their job is worth.

That's what capitalism supply and demand does.
Cleaners and drivers can be easily replaced.
People with specialist skills less so.
But with the state enforcing a legal minimum hourly rate.

So in some cases, unrestrained capitalism needs to be curtailed eg. with monopoly commissions.

TuringBot47

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Is mental capability an achievement? Some of the laziest cnuts I know are smart.

In I.T. working out the "laziest" solution and automated repetitive tasks is considered very good practice. Using your brains to reduce the work increases your productivity.

Mr. teddywinkles

TuringBot47 wrote: »

In I.T. working out the "laziest" solution and automated repetitive tasks is considered very good practice. Using your brains to reduce the work increases your productivity.

And proves what. That laziness isn't unproductive but does it mean your not lazy? So yes not so clean cut then.

4068ac1elhodqr

Greentopia wrote: »

Sweden is a stable, safe and wealthy country.

7th for happytimes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report), lowest of all Nordics, and behind Ned & Swiss.

Stockholm has also dropped out of the top20 cities in recent times for the 1st time in decades. Oh and the women only music festival (for protection from assault - dozens happened back in 2017), has now been found guilty of discrimination against others.

2019 'Blasts' are up 60% from previous year, and complex social problems have emmerged across many deprived areas, for which there are no simple soloutions according to the (new) task force establised to deal with this new issue. Demnark reinstated border checks not long ago, due to security issues.

It sounded like a grand place back in the 80/90's, these days, still not really bad, but also not as good as is sometimes painted.

mariaalice

AllForIt wrote: »

No it won't, life will go back to normal.

Socialists and leftists seem to think that society will change in some fundamental way when this is all over.

It's always the politically disadvantaged that would suggest something like this. They are currently wetting themselves to use this crisis to further their political objectives.

Any changes will be trivial. No seismic change.

Can't wait to get back to normal.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/french-police-turn-back-private-jet-of-holidaymakers-from-uk-1.4226006

I know this was discussed before. This is an important point.

They tried to make use of their connections and made a few phone calls.

In other words, their billions made no difference and connections, bribery did not work.

While things may very well go back to the way there were that is not a given.

nthclare

snotboogie wrote: »

So they're rich kids cosplaying as rural farmers?

Cosplaying now there's a word I haven't heard in a long long time, let me tell you the story about the man who went from riches to rags and was still rich..

Your response is gone right over my head....

I know what you mean but it means nothing in the big scheme of things.

Just like the conglomerate who has a few chives growing in his balcony in Tuscany... he's now a garden expert...

Were you expecting that answer ?

I gave you a thanks too for the sheet sh1ts and giggles

Greentopia

Blueshoe wrote: »

Well there you go. I learned something. I was wrong if that's the case. Good explanation.

Why do you think Sweden has so many single occupant houses?

They highly value independence from a young age-that's what the education system gears people towards from the time they go into Dagis-day care and move out from home earlier than the European average. Rents are generally affordable except for some areas in the bigger cities and sharing houses or apartments with strangers is not done there as here.

Again apart from cities like Stockholm where they have a housing problem with a lack of rental properties they can generally afford to live alone and they have the rental stock build over generations to allow people to do so. Rents increases are also tightly restricted, which some say affects supply, but is great for tenants.

I never had to pay more than I could afford there for housing costs.

Greentopia

pgj2015 wrote: »

No I am not, I didnt mention happiness in what I said in that post. I mentioned working 7 days a week. I am very happy since I started my business and working so much, I have been saying it to myself a lot over the last year. I would rather earn 20k a year working for myself than 2 million a year as an employee. There is just something about business that I love, providing a product or service to the public and getting reward for it.

if i hadnt a penny and lived on the streets, I reckon I would still see rich entrepreneurs and admire them, I would never begrudge them, its just the way I think.

You said:

pgj2015 wrote: »

i am not rich but the goal is to be rich, that is why i work 7 days a week.

So you would rather earn 20k working for yourself than 2 million working for someone else and yet your goal is to be rich. Something doesn't add up.

I'm genuinely glad you are happy (as you do mention it now) working for yourself, I feel the same way, but I don't aspire to be rich. I know the pitfalls of wealth and how little is needed to have a happy life.

Any criticisms I have about the rich are not based on begrudgery (a much overused word in this country designed often to shut down debate about the huge wealth inequalities here). I don't care how much money people earn. I care what the effect is on the rest of society and the planet of money itself and capitalism. But that's another discussion...

Charles Babbage

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

What about people that work hard and still have nothing. Yad swear hard work automatically results prosperity.

You need to work smart.

pgj2015

Greentopia wrote: »

You said:


So you would rather earn 20k working for yourself than 2 million working for someone else and yet your goal is to be rich. Something doesn't add up.

I'm genuinely glad you are happy (as you do mention it now) working for yourself, I feel the same way, but I don't aspire to be rich. I know the pitfalls of wealth and how little is needed to have a happy life.

.

the 20k comment was just about how i am now happier than i ever was working for someone else. i believe anyone with a bit of cop on and hard work can become rich by working for themselves.