How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

Idbatterim

an extract from irish examiner of what eddie hobbs reckons will happen, it is exactly how I reckon it will pan out!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/eddie-hobbs-fasten-your-seatbelt-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-993618.html

This crisis is unlikely to see a repeat of external creditor oversight but notwithstanding ECB supports for Irish bonds at close to zero rates, Ireland is limited to the scale at which the ECB will expand its balance sheet, competition from countries with greater needs such as Italy and general bond market pricing. Ireland looks to be entering the flood and fracture phase of the GPC with a centrist coalition.

There is nothing to suggest that the Irish establishment will respond much differently. The establishment will first shore itself up, limiting the impact of austerity measures to itself and its outer defences, an impulse that will be widely supported by RTÉ and academics on the State payroll.

Public Sector pay and contracts will be ringfenced even if subject to wage cuts. There will be no reform of existing contracts, the overarching public good provisions in the Constitution already deployed in the crisis, will wither in this space because of Deep State power.

The crisis comes with the ongoing housing crisis which can only be met by finally tackling the gordian knot of the property market. Radical policies that rely on the public good argument will be deployed with less resistance.


There will be no auto-enrolment for pensions, not with employers weakened and the workforce shrunken. Climate change will take a back seat to economic revival, limiting the imprint of carbon taxes and related burdens for a few years.

The big issue is the shape of the tax base, how to widen it to cover the blackhole created by the GPC. The inbound Government may have no choice but to ‘temporarily’ return to heavy lifting through the USC.

Private Pension assets are exposed to fresh appropriation if government borrowing capacity gets squeezed. This is low hanging fruit, captive and politically expedient because it was done before and doesn’t impact the public payroll.

Wealth tax will become a big global issue, it is hoped this time that the unfolding Irish debate will cease using income as a measure of wealth and left wing parties cease dodging the plain fact that most domestic Irish wealth is in our homes and in the public sector pension scheme.

After much heat I don’t think an asset-based wealth tax on the middle class will fly in Ireland, but property tax is here to stay.

Eddie Hobbs: Fasten your seatbelt, the worst is yet to come

There will be a refocus on the Apple Tax escrow for obvious reasons. The State is likely to change its position but in a nuanced manner quietly hoping that the EU wins its case.

Europe will face a fresh existential crisis, at issue will be what to do with Italy which entered the GPC with the second highest debt to GDP outside of Greece and an unreformed economy.

The Eurozone as a currency will once again be tested especially as the EU erupts into vigorous debate about common bonds and control of national budgets including setting taxes.

A radical centrist response will be required to hold it together without losing further members. Macron is likely to lead. Unlike the GFC, this time the threat is universally shared even if the price is unequal due to differences in health responses and sovereign debt levels. What can you do?

The first thing is to psychologically prepare for what is coming, the moments when the oxygen masks fall.

There is no quick fix.

The safety nets from State debt, reliefs and the ECB, all of it has a limit.

Idbatterim

Blueshoe wrote: »

It's 50k when added up actually

oh is that all? my bad...

Mr. teddywinkles

Kivaro wrote: »

Reign in your faux outrage there teddy.
The other posters knew that I was not including the 700+K who lost their jobs in the last few weeks. I was obviously talking about the €21.1 billion that we paying to the social welfare budget this year prior to Covid-19. It is an astronomical amount for a small country, and it needs to be re-adjusted due to the economic calamity that we are now in.

Either way it won't change dependency now will it. Ya think people long term unemployed will get a job along with recent unemployed. This sounds cruel but some sectors of employment need a knock to realise ya ain't all that truely.

2u2me

I would have though this is quite simple, while we're printing money out the wahoo all those rich ***** who escaped their punishment from the paradise papers would be paying for this while their assets drop to nothing?
Inequality was rising too fast.

We just better hope we don't let it slip into Ukraine/Zimbabwe hyperinflation territory.

touts

No way Germany will let the ECB print money. Their Pension and investment funds can make too much profit off this.

They made a fortune from the last bailout (caused when they gambled on the empty promises of private banks and then got the EU to force the Irish, Italians etc to underwrite it all). There is a reason Germany has the lowest death rate. They have the best hospitals. And most of those were paid for by asset stripping 3 or 4 of their EU "partners" 10 years ago. Imagine how great the fatherland will be in 10 years now they get to asset strip the whole Continent.

2u2me

touts wrote: »

No way Germany will let the ECB print money.

Showdown over eurobonds looms in EU

pure.conya

2u2me wrote: »

I would have though this is quite simple, while we're printing money out the wahoo all those rich ***** who escaped their punishment from the paradise papers would be paying for this while their assets drop to nothing?
Inequality was rising too fast.

We just better hope we don't let it slip into Ukraine/Zimbabwe hyperinflation territory.

Is anybody threatens those exposed in the panama papers the cabal will deal with the threat

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/17/murdered-panama-papers-journalist-son-malta-crooks-daphne-caruana-galizia

Daphne Caruana Galizia

The son of the murdered Maltese investigative journalist and blogger Daphne Caruana Galizia has described finding parts of his mother’s body around the blazing car in which she died and attacked the island as a “mafia state” run by “crooks”.

“My mother was assassinated because she stood between the rule of law and those who sought to violate it, like many strong journalists,” Matthew Caruana Galizia, who is also an investigative reporter, wrote in a moving and at times graphic Facebook post.

But she was also targeted because she was the only person doing so. This is what happens when the institutions of the state are incapacitated: the last person left standing is often a journalist. Which makes her the first person left dead.”

Dutch forensic experts and a team from the FBI were due to arrive in Malta to help police in the EU’s smallest state investigate the killing of Caruana Galizia, who led the Panama Papers investigation into corruption on the island.

She died on Monday afternoon when her Peugeot was destroyed by an explosive device so powerful it blew the car into a nearby field. “I saw a small explosion coming from the car and I panicked,” said one witness, Frans Sant, who was driving in the opposite direction.

“A few seconds later, around three to four seconds, there was another, larger explosion. The car continued coming down the hill, skidding at high speed, full of fire. The car missed me by around 10 feet. I tried to help but the fire was too much and the car ended up in the field,” he said.

Several hundred people demonstrated outside the main law courts in the island’s fortress capital, Valletta, on Tuesday afternoon to demand justice for the 53-year-old journalist, described as a “one-woman WikiLeaks” whose blogs were as fiercely critical of the island’s politicians as they were of its organised crime gangs.

“The state did not defend Daphne,” said Andrew Borg-Cardona, a prominent lawyer who works with the journalist’s husband. Michael Briguglio, a leading member of the island’s Green party, said: “This is a political murder because it clearly has a political context and the state did not protect a journalist who was in danger.”

The European commission said it was horrified by the murder. Asked if it would open a procedure to check if Malta was meeting the EU’s rule of law standards, a spokesman, Margaritis Schinas, said an “outrageous act has happened and what matters now is that justice will be brought. This is what we need to see.”

Matthew Caruana Galizia said he would never forget “running around the inferno in the field, trying to figure out a way to open the door, the horn of the car still blaring, screaming at two policemen who turned up with a single fire extinguisher to use it”.

One of the policemen said: “Sorry, there is nothing we can do,” he wrote. “I looked down and there were my mother’s body parts all around me. I realised they were right, it was hopeless. ‘Who is in the car?’ they asked me. ‘My mother is in the car. She is dead. She is dead because of your incompetence.’”

Caruana Galizia ran a hugely popular blog relentlessly highlighting cases of alleged high-level corruption among politicians across Malta’s party lines. “There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate,” she wrote in a post published barely half an hour before the bomb exploded.

Police said the journalist had just left her home and was on a road near the village of Bidnija in northern Malta when the bomb detonated. Local media said she had reported receiving threats two weeks ago, although police officials denied receiving any complaint.

Caruana Galizia’s most recent revelations pointed the finger at Malta’s prime minister, Joseph Muscat, and two of his closest aides, connecting offshore companies linked to the three men with the sale of Maltese passports and payments from the government of Azerbaijan.

Muscat denounced the journalist’s killing on Monday, calling it a “barbaric attack on press freedom”. Muscat, who sued the journalist and won a snap election in June called as a vote of confidence to counter her allegations, said he would “not rest until I see justice done in this case”.

While Caruana Galizia’s targets were mainly the ruling Labour party and its supporters, she had more recently turned her fire on Malta’s opposition whose leader, Adrian Delia, on Tuesday called on the prime minister to resign and the police chief and attorney general to be sacked.

“The political blame for her death lies squarely in [Muscat’s] lap and he should shoulder responsibility for it,” Delia said. “Everything in this country has a price now, but … You can be sure that someone will have to pay for this death.”

Caruana Galizia’s targets ranged from allegedly corrupt politicians to banks facilitating money laundering and the links between Malta’s online gaming industry and the mafia. Her recent work had focused particularly on revelations from the Panama Papers, a huge cache of leaked documents from the leading offshore law firm Mossack Fonseca.

Matthew Caruana Galizia said in his Facebook post that his mother’s killing was “no ordinary murder and it was not tragic. Tragic is someone being run over by a bus. When there is blood and fire all around you, that’s war. We are a people at war against the state and organised crime, which have become indistinguishable.”

He criticised “that clown of a prime minister”, making statements to parliament “about a journalist he spent over a decade demonising and harassing”, and highlighted a Facebook post by a police sergeant who shortly after the murder wrote: “Everyone gets what they deserve, cow dung! Feeling happy ”

Caruana Galizia concluded: “Yes, this is where we are: a mafia state … where you will be blown to pieces for exercising your basic freedoms, only for the people who are supposed to have protected you to instead be celebrating it.”

He said a “culture of impunity” had been allowed to flourish on the island after the prime minister “filled his office with crooks, then the police with crooks and imbeciles, then the courts with crooks and incompetents.

“If the institutions were already working, there would be no assassination to investigate – and my brothers and I would still have a mother.”

After an application by the dead journalist’s family, the investigating magistrate, Consuelo Scerri Herrera – who had come under criticism from Caruana Galizia in her blog and subsequently sued her – withdrew from the case on Tuesday

Jizique

Blueshoe wrote: »

Add it to the pile. Sure the Us is trillions in debt yet they plow on no problem. Trump and those before him had no issue lowering taxes. National debt doesn't seem to worry America.

Debt really worried those US Republicans when Obama (and previously Clinton) were in charge.
The Tories also seem to have forgotten about the levels of debt all of a sudden.

2u2me

pure.conya wrote: »

Is anybody threatens those exposed in the panama papers the cabal will deal with the threat

For how much outrage that exists in the world I'm still in awe at how little outrage there was for this story(Panama Papers).

KyussB

Beasty wrote: »

You do realise that all government expenditure is funded by "us". The State may take on debt, but has to pay the interest - that comes out of the tax take. they also have to repay that debt again out of public finances. If they don't repay that's pushing the problem onto future generations

The government can cut spending - that means lower income for some (not just welfare income, but for example the earnings of public sector workers, or those external contractors they employ)

They could raise taxes. "Tax the companies" I hear. That's fine but the companies are owned by people including funds that will pay our pensions. Tax them more and the wealth of individuals and pension funds will fall

Ultimately all of this is paid for by "people", the only debate becomes "which" people and when do they have to stump up?

Government finances don't work like household finances. States roll over their debts forever - and let GDP growth shrink the Public Debt vs GDP ratio.

Expanding Public Debt to maximize GDP, saves current and future generations, by keeping the economy at full capacity - shrinking GDP to pay down Public Debt costs present and future generations, by shrinking the economy.

Public Debt is not a 'problem' - it is a necessity for having a functioning economy - literally, because it is needed to keep the economy at full capacity in downturns.


If we shrink the economy, then the average joe pays the cost, while the well-off and powerful are insulated from the costs (they will in fact expand their percentge of control over the remaining economy - just like last time) - if we keep the economy at full output by utilizing government spending, then there is almost no cost (because GDP is kept ticking over), and what costs there are are shared evenly, and we prevent the powerful/well-off from taking an even greater share of the economy.

Cost is determined by GDP being below maximim output. Keep GDP close to maximum output, and you minimize the cost. The size of Public Debt doesn't represent cost - it is inversely related to the GDP cost, after all...

pure.conya

2u2me wrote: »

For how much outrage that exists in the world I'm still in awe at how little outrage there was for this story(Panama Papers).

Most people won't even remember ever hearing about the panama papers, and most definitely won't know that the brave woman that exposed it all was simply blown up in a car bomb

Eric Cartman

pure.conya wrote: »

Most people won't even remember ever hearing about the panama papers, and most definitely won't know that the brave woman that exposed it all was simply blown up in a car bomb

the company is still going too. Don't screw with tax avoision on that scale, you're life not worth it.

JL555

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Net.

How much does a worker bee to earn to make that after tax?

If said worker is married with 2 kids as an example, it's about 80k gross

purifol0

"The establishment will first shore itself up, limiting the impact of austerity measures to itself and its outer defences, this will be widely supported by RTÉ and academics on the State payroll.

Public Sector pay and contracts will be ringfenced even if subject to wage cuts. There will be no reform of existing contracts, the overarching public good provisions in the Constitution already deployed in the crisis, will wither in this space because of Deep State power."

www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/eddie-hobbs-fasten-your-seatbelt-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-993618.html

That's wot Ed reckons will happen over here. Probably cos its what happened 10 year ago in the last recession.

Here take a gander:

For context this graph shows that even after "savage cuts" the public sector and wanker bankers actually made more money (and received increments as per their pay scales) the year after the crash, while the entire private sector saw take home pay slashed. Not shown is the private sector job losses, but I can give you the total pubSec job losses right now: ZERO.

Will history repeat?

coolshannagh28

KyussB wrote: »

Government finances don't work like household finances. States roll over their debts forever - and let GDP growth shrink the Public Debt vs GDP ratio.

Expanding Public Debt to maximize GDP, saves current and future generations, by keeping the economy at full capacity - shrinking GDP to pay down Public Debt costs present and future generations, by shrinking the economy.

Public Debt is not a 'problem' - it is a necessity for having a functioning economy - literally, because it is needed to keep the economy at full capacity in downturns.


If we shrink the economy, then the average joe pays the cost, while the well-off and powerful are insulated from the costs (they will in fact expand their percentge of control over the remaining economy - just like last time) - if we keep the economy at full output by utilizing government spending, then there is almost no cost (because GDP is kept ticking over), and what costs there are are shared evenly, and we prevent the powerful/well-off from taking an even greater share of the economy.

Cost is determined by GDP being below maximim output. Keep GDP close to maximum output, and you minimize the cost. The size of Public Debt doesn't represent cost - it is inversely related to the GDP cost, after all...

Public debt has been expanding rapidly since 2007 particularly in the US and Europe , and will now need to be expanded exponentially and permanently , is this feasible ?

purifol0

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Public debt has been expanding rapidly since 2007 particularly in the US and Europe , and will now need to be expanded exponentially and permanently , is this feasible ?

Not him but of course it isnt. Ireland is not a superpower. We cant print our own currency and we cant tell creditors to eff off. So what happens? Same as 2009; state assets are sold off. Problem is there isnt much left. Irish Water? Owned by Ervia. Bord Gais? Sold off in 2014 to an International consortium, part of the deal was that they keep the name to avoid bad publicity ala Irish water protests.



Big debts mean big taxes. Stealth taxes like the sugar tax will become more common, maybe a broadband tax etc.

KyussB

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Public debt has been expanding rapidly since 2007 particularly in the US and Europe , and will now need to be expanded exponentially and permanently , is this feasible ?

As long as GDP grows exponentially, so does Public Debt over a long period of time - same with every economy on Earth.

Blueshoe

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Net.

How much does a worker bee to earn to make that after tax?

Much much more. Absolute basket case of a country but you all put up with it so don't expect it to change anytime soon

Kermit.de.frog

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How much is this all going to cost..?

coolshannagh28

KyussB wrote: »

As long as GDP grows exponentially, so does Public Debt over a long period of time - same with every economy on Earth.

Public debt has been used to drive GDP but with interest rates at zero to maintain it,in a functioning economy GDP would drive public debt and interest rates would control this function.

pure.conya

purifol0 wrote: »

"The establishment will first shore itself up, limiting the impact of austerity measures to itself and its outer defences, this will be widely supported by RTÉ and academics on the State payroll.

Public Sector pay and contracts will be ringfenced even if subject to wage cuts. There will be no reform of existing contracts, the overarching public good provisions in the Constitution already deployed in the crisis, will wither in this space because of Deep State power."

www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/eddie-hobbs-fasten-your-seatbelt-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-993618.html

That's wot Ed reckons will happen over here. Probably cos its what happened 10 year ago in the last recession.

Here take a gander:

For context this graph shows that even after "savage cuts" the public sector and wanker bankers actually made more money (and received increments as per their pay scales) the year after the crash, while the entire private sector saw take home pay slashed. Not shown is the private sector job losses, but I can give you the total pubSec job losses right now: ZERO.

Will history repeat?

It will only repeat if we allow it to

Eric Cartman

pure.conya wrote: »

It will only repeat if we allow it to

hopefully we learn to cut spending and keep it cut.

nthclare

purifol0 wrote: »

"The establishment will first shore itself up, limiting the impact of austerity measures to itself and its outer defences, this will be widely supported by RTÉ and academics on the State payroll.

Public Sector pay and contracts will be ringfenced even if subject to wage cuts. There will be no reform of existing contracts, the overarching public good provisions in the Constitution already deployed in the crisis, will wither in this space because of Deep State power."

www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/eddie-hobbs-fasten-your-seatbelt-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-993618.html

That's wot Ed reckons will happen over here. Probably cos its what happened 10 year ago in the last recession.

Here take a gander:

For context this graph shows that even after "savage cuts" the public sector and wanker bankers actually made more money (and received increments as per their pay scales) the year after the crash, while the entire private sector saw take home pay slashed. Not shown is the private sector job losses, but I can give you the total pubSec job losses right now: ZERO.

Will history repeat?

I'm in the public sector myself and I'm hedging my bets I'll be on a 3 day week.
It's the only way for the present circumstances, and I'm on the lower end of the scale.
I'd be in the forestry and environmental side of it.
Looking after parklands etc.

I'd seriously have no issue with a 3 day week.
It should be right across the board including CEOs etc

Or else put it at a cut off point at 30,000 all inclusive manager's, supervisor s and the guy working as a porter on maybe 40,000 at the top of his pay scale.
There's a lot of people well below 30,000 in the public sector.

Probably a 3 day week will be fairer.

But more than likely the CEOs will hold onto their cushy number's and try to Shaft all around them.

Especially in the semi state's where there's a new regime of bringing in CEOs from other multinationals on a two or 3 year contract and fluff jobs at huge wages and trying to run a small company which is so top heavy that it's putting the company under strains.

Not mentioning any companies here, but it's well known in the sector.

Beasty

KyussB wrote: »

Government finances don't work like household finances. States roll over their debts forever - and let GDP growth shrink the Public Debt vs GDP ratio.

You might think that, but there are plenty of examples where that did not work (in the case of Argentina a few times)

We have been very fortunate in recent times with abnormally low interest rates. Neither you nor I, nor anyone else, knows if that is sustainable for the long term. I remember very well the days of rampant inflation. I remember my mortgage rate heading above single digits

Some will claim it will never happen again, but that was only 30 years ago.

The difference this time is the whole World is in the same boat, and how it drags itself out of this remains to be seen. However piling all the responsibility onto future generations is, in my view, totally reprehensible. Who will pay for the next time something like this happens? Shall we put our great grandchildren into hock?

GDP growth? Where will this come from? It took the World decades to get over WWII. Plenty of austerity followed and that's what we face now whatever your ideological leanings are.

FVP3

Beasty wrote: »

You might think that, but there are plenty of examples where that did not work (in the case of Argentina a few times)

We have been very fortunate in recent times with abnormally low interest rates. Neither you nor I, nor anyone else, knows if that is sustainable for the long term. I remember very well the days of rampant inflation. I remember my mortgage rate heading above single digits

ok, boomer.

Some will claim it will never happen again, but that was only 30 years ago.

The difference this time is the whole World is in the same boat, and how it drags itself out of this remains to be seen. However piling all the responsibility onto future generations is, in my view, totally reprehensible. Who will pay for the next time something like this happens? Shall we put our great grandchildren into hock?

it won't happen again. Not without massive inflation. The reason for the increases in interest rates then were government or central bank action to reign in high inflation; which was itself caused by wages increasing at the same rate or higher than inflation. This caused a circular inflationary spiral. With the unions tamed that wont happen again. We also have an aging population in the West, with older people on reduced income relative to younger people. This is a long term anti-inflationary secular trend.

GDP growth? Where will this come from? It took the World decades to get over WWII. Plenty of austerity followed and that's what we face now whatever your ideological leanings are.

if you dont think theres any hope of GDP improvement then we might as well write off the debt now.

You are, of course, wrong about GDP not increasing after WWII. By the 50s people were richer than they ever were, by the 60s the West was in an age of prosperity.

FVP3

Eric Cartman wrote: »

hopefully we learn to cut spending and keep it cut.

That would be a splendid idea going into a deflationary cycle. We should also cut welfare payments, and so on, particularly with 20% of people likely to be unemployed for a long time.

Increase taxes and do everything else we can think of to massively reduce GDP as aggregate demand falls off the cliff. This is totally sane.

ILoveYourVibes

No idea how much it will cost. Its probably beyond figures i can comprehend. Who will pay probably the civil servants nurses etc working right now. CUTS.

FVP3

In all of this cry for funding I see little or no demands for the high rates of taxes on the wealthy ( I mean the real wealthy, top 0.1%) which were common during and post war. Nor a wealth tax. We should definitely throw the low level civil servants to the wolves though.

FVP3

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No idea how much it will cost. Its probably beyond figures i can comprehend. Who will pay probably the civil servants nurses etc working right now. CUTS.

That's what the right wingers on here are demanding alright. Crush the public sector unions etc. etc. etc.

Geuze

Danno wrote: »

And where will that €1.5Tn go to?

I can tell you where it won't go, that is straight into workers pockets.

The EU will insist that the banks "distribute" it making sure they get 4% to 7% markup on it.

We all will pay it back via "Carbon Taxes"

Mark my words.

The EU response is not 1.5 trn.

It is 500bn.

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/0409/1129708-covid-19-plan/


(1) The EU's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism will make €240 billion available in emergency credit lines. The money should go towards health spending and the facility will come to an end when the crisis is over.

This is loans to countries, with light conditions attached.

(2) The European Investment Bank will make €25 billion available, leveraged to up to €200 billion, for the corporate sector, which has faced a sudden economic slump.

This is loans from the EU bank, the EIB, to companies.


(3) A further €100bn will be made available by the European Commission to help companies retain workers so that exporters can rebound once the pandemic passes.

These loans are for work/wage subsidy schemes.

purifol0

nthclare wrote: »

I'm in the public sector myself and I'm hedging my bets I'll be on a 3 day week.
It's the only way for the present circumstances, and I'm on the lower end of the scale.
I'd be in the forestry and environmental side of it.
Looking after parklands etc.

I'd seriously have no issue with a 3 day week.
It should be right across the board including CEOs etc

Or else put it at a cut off point at 30,000 all inclusive manager's, supervisor s and the guy working as a porter on maybe 40,000 at the top of his pay scale.
There's a lot of people well below 30,000 in the public sector.

Probably a 3 day week will be fairer.

But more than likely the CEOs will hold onto their cushy number's and try to Shaft all around them.

Especially in the semi state's where there's a new regime of bringing in CEOs from other multinationals on a two or 3 year contract and fluff jobs at huge wages and trying to run a small company which is so top heavy that it's putting the company under strains.

Not mentioning any companies here, but it's well known in the sector.

Ah look the public sector is massive. Far far far too big for a tiny country with a small population. It employs almost 400,000 people! Many doing nothing useful at all. As soon as new payscales are announced we will see a huge amount of early retirements. And like the last time this happened, the desk jobs werent replaced because "the work" they did didnt matter one iota. They were killing time, but managers didnt care because the more employees they manage, the more power they have and the more they get to compare themselves to private sector counterparts who manage the same amount.



I mean cmon the fat at the top obviously needs to be cut, but you can go into a driving license centre today and watch the 20 nothing year old clerks physically POST documents to Cork because they dont "do" email.



The PS has yet to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and by that I mean efficient use of IT to remove the need for uneccessary and unskilled labour. That means that state could quite easily shed a huge amount of workers, young ones that can either find private employment (good luck finding a clerical position in the private sector) or emmigrate.


Since no one leaves the public sector its just become a burgeoning liability and even a 3 day week wont plug the gap.



I mean no offence to you at all btw, but good God has this problem been in the works since Bertie skyrocketed PS pay before the last crash. And it wouldnt even be so mich of a pain point if the public actually got some use out of all the money we are taxed to fund the PS.


In the last two weeks ive seen my friends lose their jobs completely (construction) and a family member put on 4 day weeks thus negating the raise that they had just fought for just months before. Meanwhile the entire PS is on full pay.

Blueshoe

FVP3 wrote: »

That's what the right wingers on here are demanding alright. Crush the public sector unions etc. etc. etc.

Of course. Public sector spending is out of control. There is no return on the money spent. Productivity and efficiency targets don't exist.

Privatise everything. Run for profit. Competition breeds innovation.
Take the climate crisis for example. Once it becomes profitable to go green the private sector will invest and develop technology to reach that goal.
If left to governments like everything else it turns into a public tax black hole. It's a step backwards.

Take NASA (gov funded) v Space X (privately owned Musk)
Space X will soon be in a position to launch into space at 1% of what NASA spends. Tax payers money

Geuze

touts wrote: »

No way Germany will let the ECB print money. Their Pension and investment funds can make too much profit off this.

I don't know what you mean by "print money" exactly?

Please note that the ECB has already been engaged in QE asset purchases since 2014.

More or less very month since 2014 the ECB has been creating new money to buy assets.

Here are the details:

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/implement/omt/html/index.en.html

purifol0

FVP3 wrote: »

In all of this cry for funding I see little or no demands for the high rates of taxes on the wealthy ( I mean the real wealthy, top 0.1%) which were common during and post war. Nor a wealth tax. We should definitely throw the low level civil servants to the wolves though.

Civil servant union heads advocate voting for FF and FG. Private sector voters went for SF and smaller parties. Wonder why that is?


As for wealth tax HELLL YES. We need a Vacant Property Tax, a land hoarding tax. We needed one before this crisis anyway. But FG wouldnt do it, and I doubt FF would either.

Geuze

MadYaker wrote: »

This is probably what will happen

Note that QE is already happening.

The ECB have been creating new money since 2014.

They use the new money to buy financial assets, mainly Govt bonds

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/implement/omt/html/index.en.html

APP net purchases, by programme
Between October 2014 and December 2018 the Eurosystem conducted net purchases of securities under one or more of the asset purchase programmes. During the net asset purchase phase, monthly purchase pace averaged:

€60 billion from March 2015 to March 2016
€80 billion from April 2016 to March 2017
€60 billion from April 2017 to December 2017
€30 billion from January 2018 to September 2018
€15 billion from October 2018 to December 2018

FVP3

As usual on this site this has become a public sector and welfare bashing thread. The funny thing about these guys is that if they strayed from their bedrooms to start a political party it would presumably get 0.01% of the vote, up from the 0% that economic philosophy gets now.

Besides, all that it is yesterday's news. The Tories are manning the printing presses, as are the Republicans in the US, it's hardly going to see a rise in a pro austerity right wing party in this largely left wing( economically speaking) damp island.

Nobody has mentioned helicopter money. I'm not totally convinced by MMT etc but a short period of helicopter money might make sense.

purifol0

Blueshoe wrote: »

Of course. Public sector spending is out of control. There is no return on the money spent. Productivity and efficiency targets don't exist.

Privatise everything. Run for profit. Competition breeds innovation.
Take the climate crisis for example. Once it becomes profitable to go green the private sector will invest and develop technology to reach that goal.
If left to governments like everything else it turns into a public tax black hole. It's a step backwards

Correct. The best argument against paying tax is simply pointing out where the govt spend it. When the public cannot access the services they pay for its pretty galling. Think of the money sank into the HSE yet appoinments take years. Why? Because the staff only work office hours and the entire budget is taken up on payroll.

na1

L1011 wrote: »

Plenty of countries have welfare debit cards. People still get smokes/drink/drugs with them in every single one of them.

Dodgy retailers, or buy stuff to sell.

At least these countries make the Dole rates proportional to contributions, and also force long time 'seekers' to do a community work.

FVP3

Blueshoe wrote: »

Of course. Public sector spending is out of control. There is no return on the money spent. Productivity and efficiency targets don't exist.

Privatise everything. Run for profit. Competition breeds innovation.
Take the climate crisis for example. Once it becomes profitable to go green the private sector will invest and develop technology to reach that goal.
If left to governments like everything else it turns into a public tax black hole. It's a step backwards

A I said there is exactly 0% support for these policies in Ireland, or any where. We have to deal with workable solutions not the fantasies of internet warriors.

( And for green solutions clearly there would be no technological improvements for the private sector to capitalise on were it not for government financed science).

Idbatterim

FVP3 wrote: »

As usual on this site this has become a public sector and welfare bashing thread. The funny thing about these guys is that if they strayed from their bedrooms to start a political party it would presumably get 0.01% of the vote, up from the 0% that economic philosophy gets now.

Besides, all that it is yesterday's news. The Tories are manning the printing presses, as are the Republicans in the US, it's hardly going to see a rise in a pro austerity right wing party in this largely left wing( economically speaking) damp island.

Nobody has mentioned helicopter money. I'm not totally convinced by MMT etc but a short period of helicopter money might make sense.

cut welfare for the perpetual wasters and increase it for recently unemployed, a mental concept that they employ in most other countries! If you think you owe the wasters a good standard of living, can I cut my tax and you can give them more of yours?

Blueshoe

purifol0 wrote: »

Correct. The best argument against paying tax is simply pointing out where the govt spend it. When the public cannot access the services they pay for its pretty galling. Think of the money sank into the HSE yet appoinments take years. Why? Because the staff only work office hours and the entire budget is taken up on payroll.

I could give you an endless amount of money but if you are wasting it then it's pointless. I legally have to keep giving you the money (tax) and you are under no real obligation to spend it frugally. It's madness.
You can also decide that I have to give you more every year. There is nothing I can do about it

rob316

1% covid levy on absolutely everyone in employment or receipt of social welfare. I know that will never fly with the sw crowd but tough.
Review in each budget.

FVP3

Idbatterim wrote: »

cut welfare for the perpetual wasters and increase it for recently unemployed, a mential concept that they employ in most other countries!

Thats a good idea, but a far cry from dismantling the entire public service. I would like the 70% of income to be permanent, and I don't think it would cost that much either, if limited to 6 months or so. Most people would try get a job in that time.

If you think you owe the wasters a good standard of living, can I cut my tax and you can give them more of yours?

No because that is not how tax works. Any chance you would even think of taxing the rich, no?

Blueshoe

rob316 wrote: »

1% covid levy on absolutely everyone in employment or receipt of social welfare. I know that will never fly with the sw crowd but tough.
Review in each budget.

How about anyone who received the payment from the government pays it back over time.

It's linked to pps numbers. Tax credits can be adjusted.

Geuze

FVP3 wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned helicopter money. I'm not totally convinced by MMT etc but a short period of helicopter money might make sense.

If the CB handed newly-created money out to households, what would be the corresponding asset on the CB balance sheet?

rob316

Blueshoe wrote: »

How about anyone who received the payment from the government pays it back over time.

How is it fair you have to pay back your entire income because you lost your job through no fault of your own? A levy on everyone is the best way.

FVP3

Blueshoe wrote: »

You can also decide that I have to give you more every year. There is nothing I can do about it

Nothing you can do about it? This is a democracy.

You could leave your bedroom and set up the Irish Libertarian Party ( there isn't one, I checked), with your friend Gavin the other libertarian Irish guy.

The great thing about a party of that size is that the Ard Fheis can be held in the smallest smug of your local pub ( when restrictions are lifted of course) and you can a bring a cat to swing, and have plenty of room to do so.

Junkyard Tom

Blueshoe wrote: »

Of course. Public sector spending is out of control. There is no return on the money spent. Productivity and efficiency targets don't exist.

Privatise everything. Run for profit. Competition breeds innovation.
Take the climate crisis for example. Once it becomes profitable to go green the private sector will invest and develop technology to reach that goal.
If left to governments like everything else it turns into a public tax black hole. It's a step backwards.

Take NASA (gov funded) v Space X (privately owned Musk)
Space X will soon be in a position to launch into space at 1% of what NASA spends. Tax payers money

This is the dumbest post in the whole thread and it's said with the confidence only a complete lunatic could display.

Idbatterim

FVP3 wrote: »

Thats a good idea, but a far cry from dismantling the entire public service. I would like the 70% of income to be permanent, and I don't think it would cost that much either, if limited to 6 months or so. Most people would try get a job in that time.

yeah and if we had a proper welfare system, this would have been in place already , so many countries doing along lines of wha you propose for this crisis and I am sure, many already have such a system in place...


No because that is not how tax works. Any chance you would even think of taxing the rich, no?

of course tax the rich more. The piss taking goes on right at the top and right at the bottom for the most part. Its easier to control it at the bottom though, of course it wouldnt be populist, so non of them would touch it with a barge poll! they need to get serious on land hoarding though etc, a proper site valuation tax, for a start!

Blueshoe

rob316 wrote: »

How is it fair you have to pay back your entire income because you lost your job through no fault of your own? A levy on everyone is the best way.

How fair is it that I have to pay because someone else lost their job through no fault of my own.
If you received money you pay it back.
I'm only working 2 or 3 days a week myself and getting the payment through work. Iv no problem paying it back over time. I don't expect someone whos been working from home and paying PAYE all along to also pay for me.