How will schools be able to go back in September?

lulublue22

SusanC10 wrote: »

How fast is testing these days ?

So, I have a cough and a temp. I keep the Kids home and try to get tested asap. If a get a (negative) result fairly fast, then it wouldn't be the full 14 days.

Family member got results in 48 hours. My concerns with testing is we are currently at low levels with low community spread. Family member knew it was sinus but dr insisted that she be tested and no anti b until she did. While this is good practice can you imagine the stress on testing in Winter for any cold , flu , viral infection like illness. What will capacity and turn around be like then and will schools be prioritised?

dundalkfc10

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

It's not really a fair point. Who'll pay me to mind my kids if they get sick?

Teachers aren't the first to go back to work

Will employers be happy Parents be taking 2 weeks off all over the place to mind kids isolating?

Will employers then stop employing parents and just employ single people?

wirelessdude01

SusanC10 wrote: »

2 Questions (using examples):-

If I develop a cough or a temp etc, do I have to keep my children at home until I can confirm that it is not Covid-19 ?

If another child in my son's class tests positive and my son is part of the group told to self-isolate, do I need to also keep my daughter at home (different schools)?

Thanks

Not sure about other teachers but I expected that this sort of stuff would have been included in the document. Public health really isn't at the heart of this at all, get em in and stack em high is the attitude.

Peter Flynt

HerrKuehn wrote: »

It isn't practical for teachers to work from home, same as bus drivers, plumbers etc. Added to that, education is one of the most important services provided by the state, along with health.

Yea well. . . I won't be providing a service if I consider at the end of August that the situation is too dangerous.
I'll resign and resume working when the virus has cleared.

titan18

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Will employers be happy Parents be taking 2 weeks off all over the place to mind kids isolating?

Will employers then stop employing parents and just employ single people?

It's not a teacher's job to mind your sick child either tbf

SusanC10

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Not sure about other teachers but I expected that this sort of stuff would have been included in the document. Public health really isn't at the heart of this at all, get em in and stack em high is the attitude.

I haven't read every word so was hoping that it was in there somewhere in the documents released and that I missed it !

wirelessdude01

Example one for teachers.

Teacher has suspected Covid. Has to go for testing. Test comes back positive so panel sub in for whatever length of time. A few days later a different teacher develops symptoms. Test comes back positive. No teachers available from Covid panel locally or in neighbouring countries. No standard subs available and two members of SET also call in sick that day. Class sent home is it?

These are the sort of scenarios that can and will happen and they aren't looked at in the document. Money is being flung at it to appease the parents and public but no consideration has been given to what happens on the ground.

s1ippy

SusanC10 wrote: »

It's not really me that I am talking about the rather some other Parents who tend to dose their Kids with Calpol and send them in and then not answer their phone when the school calls.

Many don't even waste the Calpol.

Lillyfae

combat14 wrote: »

what we need in sept is intensive remote (blended) learning for all teachers even if this delays start of school by a week of two

the reality is that if there is a second wave at any stage teachers need to be adequately trained to teach online perhaps for the rest of the academic year if needs be

Sorry, they should be doing it now, not when the children are expecting to go back.

hmmm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

These are the sort of scenarios that can and will happen and they aren't looked at in the document. Money is being flung at it to appease the parents and public but no consideration has been given to what happens on the ground.

In those scenarios public health doctors would step in and make the decision. We can't predict or document every scenario, public health will work with schools if cases arise. The situation is dynamic, and our actions will need to adapt as the external environment (community transmission etc) changes.

lulublue22

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Example one for teachers.

Teacher has suspected Covid. Has to go for testing. Test comes back positive so panel sub in for whatever length of time. A few days later a different teacher develops symptoms. Test comes back positive. No teachers available from Covid panel locally or in neighbouring countries. No standard subs available and two members of SET also call in sick that day. Class sent home is it?

These are the sort of scenarios that can and will happen and they aren't looked at in the document. Money is being flung at it to appease the parents and public but no consideration has been given to what happens on the ground.

It’s pure optics. The practical day to day stuff that you’ve outlined above that’s what we need. How about children who are sent in sick can the school refuse on public health grounds. What if a child is sent home with covid like symptoms and rocks up the next day my mam says it’s only a cold ? Will children with covid like symptoms need a drs note to say they don’t ?

Peter Flynt

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Example one for teachers.

Teacher has suspected Covid. Has to go for testing. Test comes back positive so panel sub in for whatever length of time. A few days later a different teacher develops symptoms. Test comes back positive. No teachers available from Covid panel locally or in neighbouring countries. No standard subs available and two members of SET also call in sick that day. Class sent home is it?

These are the sort of scenarios that can and will happen and they aren't looked at in the document. Money is being flung at it to appease the parents and public but no consideration has been given to what happens on the ground.

The class would remain at school under supervision if a suitable teacher cannot be found. If it is a student I'm not entirely sure what the situation is as in secondary schools students have different class mates every 40 minutes for different subjects. Sending home the entire year doesn't seem like it's in the plan if a second level student is determined as having Covid.

On teacher supply one important factor is this:
A load of teachers approaching retirement are going to retire early and get out.
Why risk your health for this?
If, for example, there is one teacher in each second level school who does this (and there are already two that I know of in my school) then this would eat up the 1000 teachers supposedly being supplied.
In other words . . . there will be no teachers available for substituting.

hmmm

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sorry, they should be doing it now, not when the children are expecting to go back.

Fully agree. It's almost a scandal this isn't happening right now. We will try to get children back into schools, but there is a relatively high likelihood that it might not work and they have to be sent home - not because of lack of planning, but because the virus situation is not entirely in our control.

BonsaiKitten

I wonder how many parents are aware of the procedure if a primary teacher is out sick?

First, try get a sub. If a sub can't be found, put the SET teacher in to supervise. When the teacher is back in, school can have a sub in on another day as an extra staff member.

Now when I read that I thought this was great, the sub can work with the SET teacher doing vital catch up sessions for children who missed support time... except that's not what it is. The sub takes the class again and the class teacher works with SET. Thus depriving the class of their teacher for twice as long!

Honestly if anyone can explain the logic behind it I am all ears, it's baffling me.

lulublue22

hmmm wrote: »

In those scenarios public health doctors would step in and make the decision. We can't predict or document every scenario, public health will work with schools if cases arise. The situation is dynamic, and our actions will need to adapt as the external environment (community transmission etc) changes.

We don’t need to document every scenario. Any teacher hete can outline 3 - 4 scenarios that are most likely to occur and most likely to cause issues. Having guidance on those should be a basic requirement.

wirelessdude01

hmmm wrote: »

In those scenarios public health doctors would step in and make the decision. We can't predict or document every scenario, public health will work with schools if cases arise. The situation is dynamic, and our actions will need to adapt as the external environment (community transmission etc) changes.

So are public health going to come to the school on that morning and teach the class? Total rubbish. That scenario isn't too hard to imagine happening seeing as we have to stay at home if we have a sniffle.

wirelessdude01

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The class would remain at school under supervision if a suitable teacher cannot be found. If it is a student I'm not entirely sure what the situation is as in secondary schools students have different class mates every 40 minutes for different subjects. Sending home the entire year doesn't seem like it's in the plan if a second level student is determined as having Covid.

On teacher supply one important factor is this:
A load of teachers approaching retirement are going to retire early and get out.
Why risk your health for this?
If, for example, there is one teacher in each second level school who does this (and there are already two that I know of in my school) then this would eat up the 1000 teachers supposedly being supplied.
In other words . . . there will be no teachers available for substituting.

And who will be doing the supervising is the whole point I'm making?

downthemiddle

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

And who will be doing the supervising is the whole point I'm making?

Circular 45/2020

Sequence for covering all teacher absences:
1. Supply panel if the school is part of a supply panel cluster arrangement,
2. School’s own panel of regular substitutes,
3. National substitute service,
4. If no substitute is available from above options then a school may
 For teachers in mainstream classes, schools use other non-mainstream teachers to
cover the absence. A substitute may be employed on a subsequent date when one is
available. On that day, the mainstream classroom teacher will undertake non
mainstream teaching and the substitute will teach the mainstream class.
 For non-mainstream teachers a substitute may be employed on a subsequent date
when one is available. Special Needs Class teachers cannot be used in this way.
5. Administrative Principal if applicable
6. Local arrangements that facilitate the pupils to be supervised in a manner that does not
involve them being split between existing classes in classrooms

I would be particularly interested in an explanation of point 6.

Peter Flynt

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

And who will be doing the supervising is the whole point I'm making?

Anyone with Garda clearance.

Roll up, roll up . . . all those whingers about teachers.
Your time has come to shine.

wirelessdude01

downthemiddle wrote: »

Circular 45/2020

Sequence for covering all teacher absences:
1. Supply panel if the school is part of a supply panel cluster arrangement,
2. School’s own panel of regular substitutes,
3. National substitute service,
4. If no substitute is available from above options then a school may
 For teachers in mainstream classes, schools use other non-mainstream teachers to
cover the absence. A substitute may be employed on a subsequent date when one is
available. On that day, the mainstream classroom teacher will undertake non
mainstream teaching and the substitute will teach the mainstream class.
 For non-mainstream teachers a substitute may be employed on a subsequent date
when one is available. Special Needs Class teachers cannot be used in this way.
5. Administrative Principal if applicable
6. Local arrangements that facilitate the pupils to be supervised in a manner that does not
involve them being split between existing classes in classrooms

I would be particularly interested in an explanation of point 6.

Let's say none of them are applicable and it's a teaching principal. What happens then?

wirelessdude01

downthemiddle wrote: »

Circular 45/2020

Sequence for covering all teacher absences:
1. Supply panel if the school is part of a supply panel cluster arrangement,
2. School’s own panel of regular substitutes,
3. National substitute service,
4. If no substitute is available from above options then a school may
 For teachers in mainstream classes, schools use other non-mainstream teachers to
cover the absence. A substitute may be employed on a subsequent date when one is
available. On that day, the mainstream classroom teacher will undertake non
mainstream teaching and the substitute will teach the mainstream class.
 For non-mainstream teachers a substitute may be employed on a subsequent date
when one is available. Special Needs Class teachers cannot be used in this way.
5. Administrative Principal if applicable
6. Local arrangements that facilitate the pupils to be supervised in a manner that does not
involve them being split between existing classes in classrooms

I would be particularly interested in an explanation of point 6.

Seriously who put together point number 4? Why would the class teacher not teach their class when they are back in? For god's sake this is utter madness.

lulublue22

downthemiddle wrote: »

Circular 45/2020

Sequence for covering all teacher absences:
1. Supply panel if the school is part of a supply panel cluster arrangement,
2. School’s own panel of regular substitutes,
3. National substitute service,
4. If no substitute is available from above options then a school may
 For teachers in mainstream classes, schools use other non-mainstream teachers to
cover the absence. A substitute may be employed on a subsequent date when one is
available. On that day, the mainstream classroom teacher will undertake non
mainstream teaching and the substitute will teach the mainstream class.
 For non-mainstream teachers a substitute may be employed on a subsequent date
when one is available. Special Needs Class teachers cannot be used in this way.
5. Administrative Principal if applicable
6. Local arrangements that facilitate the pupils to be supervised in a manner that does not
involve them being split between existing classes in classrooms

I would be particularly interested in an explanation of point 6.

Looks like SET will be pulled and dragged left right and centre. How anyone involved in education can stand over that is beyond me. The most vulnerable children miss out again.

ETA what I’m getting from the above is that it doesn’t matter who is supervising once they are kept in school and tough luck if you're SET as you won’t be seeing your kids with any sort of regularity.

hmmm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So are public health going to come to the school on that morning and teach the class? Total rubbish. That scenario isn't too hard to imagine happening seeing as we have to stay at home if we have a sniffle.

If there are multiple teachers in a school testing positive, or all off sick and requiring testing, it's unlikely kids will be going to that school while Covid is circulating. That'll be obvious to a public health doctor.

We're in a public health emergency. You're not going to get everything handed to you on a plate, it will require some element of figuring things out as we go along.

downthemiddle

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let's say none of them are applicable and it's a teaching principal. What happens then?

You have to don the green jersey, stop moaning and get on with it. Find a bespoke solution obviously.

joe40

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Whos going to pay someone, if they need to take 2 weeks off work to mind their child (i.e bus driver/teacher etc)

What happens if you have a multiple kids in diff schools, and in a 2 month period you are out for 2 weeks 3 times, one for each kid.

Still get paid?

With fast testing in should not be 2 weeks if a person does not have the virus.
If you do have the virus then obviously self isolation is necessary.

BonsaiKitten

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Seriously who put together point number 4? Why would the class teacher not teach their class when they are back in? For god's sake this is utter madness.

And for all non-teachers, this comes from a Department circular. We are obliged to follow this 'guidance'. Total madness.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sorry, they should be doing it now, not when the children are expecting to go back.

I agree, they've been off since March

lulublue22

hmmm wrote: »

If there are multiple teachers in a school testing positive, or all off sick and requiring testing, it's unlikely kids will be going to that school while Covid is circulating. That'll be obvious to a public health doctor.

We're in a public health emergency. You're not going to get everything handed to you on a plate, it will require some element of figuring things out as we go along.

Schools are a hot bed of infection at the best of times. A number of staff could be out due to none covid reasons. Other illnesses haven’t magically disappeared because covid arrived.

BonsaiKitten

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I agree, they've been off since March

Be great if the Department had it (and the mystery Covid training) available now then, wouldn't it?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Should all this not have been sorted out, say maybe months ago and not 4 weeks before Schools are back?

Absolutely, that's what I said.

hollymartins

My child has been back in preschool for 4 weeks. They are split into play pods, there's stringent handwashing and the day finishes early (4.30) to allow staff deep clean the premises. We have to wash hands, check temp before morning drop off and the children/ teachers don't wear facemasks.

If any of us have Covid symptoms we can't send them in.

If it works for preschoolers and their teachers why are some claiming primary/secondary teachers & students require more protection?

HerrKuehn

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Yea well. . . I won't be providing a service if I consider at the end of August that the situation is too dangerous.
I'll resign and resume working when the virus has cleared.

Well, I guess it is up to you to make a decision regarding what you feel is in your best interests.

TheValeyard

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I agree, they've been off since March

They've been teaching since March. But you already know that.

Icyseanfitz

hollymartins wrote: »

My child has been back in preschool for 4 weeks. They are split into play pods, there's stringent handwashing and the day finishes early (4.30) to allow staff deep clean the premises. We have to wash hands, check temp before morning drop off and the children/ teachers don't wear facemasks.

If any of us have Covid symptoms we can't send them in.

If it works for preschoolers and their teachers why are some claiming primary/secondary teachers & students require more protection?

Adult to student ratio would be far smaller, and on top of that seems that pre school is doing a lot more to safe guard than what was outlined in the 'plan'

wirelessdude01

hollymartins wrote: »

My child has been back in preschool for 4 weeks. They are split into play pods, there's stringent handwashing and the day finishes early (4.30) to allow staff deep clean the premises. We have to wash hands, check temp before morning drop off and the children/ teachers don't wear facemasks.

If any of us have Covid symptoms we can't send them in.

If it works for preschoolers and their teachers why are some claiming primary/secondary teachers & students require more protection?

What's the child to adult ratio?

seamus

lulublue22 wrote: »

What will capacity and turn around be like then and will schools be prioritised?

It should be fine to be honest. Our testing capacity is still large, and we would expect that traditional seasonal illnesses will also be way down because the hygiene procedures for Covid also reduce the incidence of these illnesses too. The very low level of international travel will also reduce the circulation of any novel viruses too.

In all reality this will probably be the winter with the least amount of illness that any of us have ever experienced.

wirelessdude01

seamus wrote: »

In all reality this will probably be the winter with the least amount of illness that any of us have ever experienced.

Here's hoping.

joe40

seamus wrote: »

It should be fine to be honest. Our testing capacity is still large, and we would expect that traditional seasonal illnesses will also be way down because the hygiene procedures for Covid also reduce the incidence of these illnesses too. The very low level of international travel will also reduce the circulation of any novel viruses too.

In all reality this will probably be the winter with the least amount of illness that any of us have ever experienced.

I would also hope the uptake on flu vaccine will be much higher this year. Flu symptoms are similar to corona so I would imagine people would want to avoid the flu at all costs instead of self isolation/ testing hassle.

I wonder will they make it free for all this year.

Bobtheman

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

I signed up for salary protection earlier this year, I'd be tempted to take sick leave. Be nice to be able to spend Christmas with my family, or meet my friends over the next few months. If I go back to work with this lack of precautions I won't see anyone other than my wife, and she is high risk on top of it all.

I find posts like this surprising. Isn't this issue EU wide? Other countries have opened their schools. Why can't we? Each person must make up their own choices in the end.

hollymartins

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What's the child to adult ratio?

I don't know exactly but which to be fair I imagine it's significantly less, probably half, than in schools.

The day for preschool teachers is longer? Ours is open from 8 to 4.30 since reopening (extending to 6pm in Sept for those parents who need it) whereas primary school have more students but finish in the afternoon? Unless that's all changed now if there's staggered times?

Bobtheman

hollymartins wrote: »

My child has been back in preschool for 4 weeks. They are split into play pods, there's stringent handwashing and the day finishes early (4.30) to allow staff deep clean the premises. We have to wash hands, check temp before morning drop off and the children/ teachers don't wear facemasks.

If any of us have Covid symptoms we can't send them in.

If it works for preschoolers and their teachers why are some claiming primary/secondary teachers & students require more protection?

You're joking right? There are no play pods in secondary school. Rooms have more kids per metre in secondary schools.Plus kids are bigger. Plus secondary kids more likely to transmit than kids below 5. You do know this?

Icyseanfitz

Bobtheman wrote: »

I find posts like this surprising. Isn't this issue EU wide? Other countries have opened their schools. Why can't we? Each person must make up their own choices in the end.

What's surprising? That I love my family and want them to be as safe as possible? I'm horrible!

Rest of the EU doesn't have schools in the state ours are in, they also put protections in place for workers and students returning to school, our government haven't.

Alrigghtythen

Bobtheman wrote: »

You're joking right? There are no play pods in secondary school. Rooms have more kids per metre in secondary schools.Plus kids are bigger. Plus secondary kids more likely to transmit than kids below 5. You do know this?

Why would a 16 year old need a play pod?

lulublue22

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why would a 16 year old need a play pod?

To play in ?

Bobtheman

lulublue22 wrote: »

To play in ?

I was emphasising that you can't compare playschool with a secondary school. Hours and space etc

Loafing Oaf

hollymartins wrote: »

My child has been back in preschool for 4 weeks. They are split into play pods, there's stringent handwashing and the day finishes early (4.30) to allow staff deep clean the premises. We have to wash hands, check temp before morning drop off and the children/ teachers don't wear facemasks.

If any of us have Covid symptoms we can't send them in.

If it works for preschoolers and their teachers why are some claiming primary/secondary teachers & students require more protection?

I think a bigger sample than one preschool over a month would be required to prove the safety of this approach

Bobtheman

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

What's surprising? That I love my family and want them to be as safe as possible? I'm horrible!

Rest of the EU doesn't have schools in the state ours are in, they also put protections in place for workers and students returning to school, our government haven't.

Look. It's an individual choice. Not every school in Ireland is old. So it will depend school to school. Depends on your health.
It's way way too soon to call it in terms of saying our workplaces are unsafe. A huge amount of money being thrown at this. The only advice id give is see what happens. If you think your school will not be ready then delay going back until it is but to simply resign now is premature.

Bobtheman

Suddenly a lot of people who have not been to a union meeting in years are relying on mother union again. Amusing
For all its faults mother union is our only salvation.
Let us pay our dues.
Relying on the union so we can avoid stories like that poor doctor who passed away recently.

hollymartins

Bobtheman wrote: »

You're joking right? There are no play pods in secondary school. Rooms have more kids per metre in secondary schools.Plus kids are bigger. Plus secondary kids more likely to transmit than kids below 5. You do know this?

Yes I'm aware there's no play pods in secondary schools, they only apply to young children who don't understand social distancing.

What do you think should happen? Reduce numbers by sending children in on different days? I was surprised they decided not to do this but I guess it would be difficult for parents with children of different ages?

lulublue22

Bobtheman wrote: »

I was emphasising that you can't compare playschool with a secondary school. Hours and space etc

I know post was in reference to the poster who didn’t seem to understand that a pid of 6 pre school children is very different to a school situation.