How will schools be able to go back in September?

hollymartins

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I think a bigger sample than one preschool over a month would be required to prove the safety of this approach

It wasn't a scientific sample, merely my own experience

Icyseanfitz

Bobtheman wrote: »

Look. It's an individual choice. Not every school in Ireland is old. So it will depend school to school. Depends on your health.
It's way way too soon to call it in terms of saying our workplaces are unsafe. A huge amount of money being thrown at this. The only advice id give is see what happens. If you think your school will not be ready then delay going back until it is but to simply resign now is premature.

To be fair my school isn't that old, it just wasn't built with something like covid-19 in mind there will be 700+ students and 60+ staff all in at the same time, with small rooms and narrow corridors. And if schools follow the guidelines given there will be no effective social distancing, no ppe gear, no preventative measures such as temperature checking etc.

While it is a bit preemptive to be talking about not going back, there is only a few short weeks to go and schools will be hard pressed to do much in preparation in such a short time. Hopefully schools and ETBs are given a strong level of autonomy with issues such as splitting student numbers for different days, ppe gear, procedures for sick staff and kids etc.

Alrigghtythen

hollymartins wrote: »

Yes I'm aware there's no play pods in secondary schools, they only apply to young children who don't understand social distancing.

What do you think should happen? Reduce numbers by sending children in on different days? I was surprised they decided not to do this but I guess it would be difficult for parents with children of different ages?

The preschool child care have more contact hours and are a lot more up close and personal with bodily fluids than either secondary or primary school teachers.


I get that it may be scary for teachers. Yes it will be different and you will need to adapt. Haven't we all?

They should look to other industries to show them how it's done. The trail blazers who kept the country going while keeping covid out.

The school doors cant be kept shut forever

Lillyfae

Bobtheman wrote: »

Suddenly a lot of people who have not been to a union meeting in years are relying on mother union again. Amusing.

So what? The union is supposed to be working for its members, not the other way around.

hollymartins

lulublue22 wrote: »

I know post was in reference to the poster who didn’t seem to understand that a pid of 6 pre school children is very different to a school situation.

It's certainly very different, the level if intimate care a preschool teacher has to provide to a small group of young children who don't socially distance, from 8am to 5pm

lulublue22

hollymartins wrote: »

It's certainly very different, the level if intimate care a preschool teacher has to provide to a small group of young children who don't socially distance, from 8am to 5pm

Yes but if research is to be believed younger children don’t transmit the disease to the same extent as older children 10+. Preschools are also not dealing with potentially 600 - 700 pp students all day everyday. They also are in pods of 6 that do not mix. Subject choice in pp make that very difficult to achieve. Pre schools also don’t include children who are bused to school via school transport. There are also children who require intimate care in the mainstream school setting and considerably more in special schools.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I get that it may be scary for teachers. Yes it will be different and you will need to adapt. Haven't we all?

They should look to other industries to show them how it's done. The trail blazers who kept the country going while keeping covid out.

The school doors cant be kept shut forever

That's kind of the argument. Everywhere you look there is distancing, masks, limited numbers in comparison to regular practice etc.

Schools? Throw them all back in, 20+ in a room, no masks etc

It's not that teachers are cowering in the corner.

They just look at what has been done elsewhere and are wondering why very little of this is being adapted to a school setting.

Alrigghtythen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

That's kind of the argument. Everywhere you look there is distancing, masks, limited numbers in comparison to regular practice etc.

Schools? Throw them all back in, 20+ in a room, no masks etc

It's not that teachers are cowering in the corner.

They just look at what has been done elsewhere and are wondering why very little of this is being adapted to a school setting.

We've more numbers than ever in the place i work and we dont wear masks. we're busier than ever and worked throughout the pandemic. Masks aren't a magical solution, people forget basic distancing and handwashing when wearing them.

The nurses and doctors, the gardai, the fire dept., the supply chain, the fruit pickers, he food production workers, the truck drivers, the supermarkets, the pre school child minders, all adjusted and got on with it. So it does smack a bit of teachers cowering in the corner.

Peter Flynt

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

We've more numbers than ever in the place i work and we dont wear masks. we're busier than ever and worked throughout the pandemic. Masks aren't a magical solution, people forget basic distancing and handwashing when wearing them.

The nurses and doctors, the gardai, the fire dept., the supply chain, the fruit pickers, he food production workers, the truck drivers, the supermarkets, the pre school child minders, all adjusted and got on with it. So it does smack a bit of teachers cowering in the corner.

When approaching supermarket checkouts I've been told, as one individual, to stand 2 m away from both the loading of the goods and for the paying of them.

Not quite the same as being in a 7m x 7m room with 30 students, is it?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

joe40 wrote: »

I would also hope the uptake on flu vaccine will be much higher this year. Flu symptoms are similar to corona so I would imagine people would want to avoid the flu at all costs instead of self isolation/ testing hassle.

I wonder will they make it free for all this year.

AFAIK it's free for all children this year where it wouldn't normally be unless they have underlying condition.

Alrigghtythen

Peter Flynt wrote: »

When approaching supermarket checkouts I've been told, as one individual, to stand 2 m away from both the loading of the goods and for the paying of them.

Not quite the same as being in a 7m x 7m room with 30 students, is it?

You could have done your shopping online and reduced your risk further. Yet you were willing to put the workers and not just the check out person but every involved in the chain lives at risk?

Was there any windows in the supermarket within a 7m radius you could open? Is there any windows in your classroom?

Peter Flynt

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

You could have done your shopping online and reduced your risk further.

Was there any windows in the supermarket within a 7m radius you could open? Is there any windows in your classroom?

The shops were open so I didn't

The issue is not regarding the opening of schools
Its the manner of their opening.

If 2m social distancing applies in Tesco then it should apply in schools.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

You could have done your shopping online and reduced your risk further.

Was there any windows in the supermarket within a 7m radius you could open? Is there any windows in your classroom?

The supermarket wud be bigger than the average classroom. I'd be fairly sure of that

In A&E everyone had a mask on while waiting and distanced from each other, last time I was there

Our GP has closed their waiting room and you wait in the car. You don't touch the doors on the way in or out, they're opened for you. Secretary, patient and doctor all wear masks. Doctor wipes everything down before and after.

Building sites are dramatically different, some closed due to positive tests

You know, silly sh1t like that

Alrigghtythen

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The shops were open so I didn't

The issue is not regarding the opening of schools
Its the manner of their opening.

If 2m social distancing applies in Tesco then it should apply in schools.

Hiw close do you stand to your pupils?

Boggles

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

You could have done your shopping online and reduced your risk further.

People were asked to leave online shopping to the people who really needed it.

Crazy safety measure.

Shakes fist.

Alrigghtythen

Boggles wrote: »

People were asked to leave online shopping to the people who really needed it.

Crazy safety measure.

Shakes fist.

That advice was months ago. Things have changed and will continue to change.

joe40

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Hiw close do you stand to your pupils?

In normal time you could be quite close on occasion, giving individual help with work for example or corridors at break time can be a real squeeze. Obviously that won't happen now, I will ensure 2 m distance.
Pupils keeping 2 m apart will be harder, nearly impossible to enforce.

Deeec

I think the plans issued yesterday were very poor and don't address most of the issues school face. I was fully prepared for a 2/3 day part time return for children and I think most parents would have been happy with this. This would have facilitated a more cautioned approach to reopening the schools
Also Im surprised that school buses are allowed to run - all classes will be mixing on dirty poorly ventilated buses. It makes a complete joke of older children and social distancing. How are drivers going to supervise who kids sit beside - its beyond their remit. All children who travel by bus will be arriving to the school at the same time.

Blended learning/ homeschooling - I am so so annoyed that no guidance was given on this. How hard would it have been to put a standard plan together on this that each school would have to follow should the school have to close. I think it is a given that schools will have to close at some time over the winter given the approach taken by the DOE - then we will be back to the unfair mess this was during lockdown.

Also my children seem to have snotty noses for most of the winter ( as do most children lets face it) - its not even a cold - just snotty noses for no apparent reason. I reckon they are going to miss a lot of school due to this.

dundalkfc10

Deeec wrote: »

I think the plans issued yesterday were very poor and don't address most of the issues school face. I was fully prepared for a 2/3 day part time return for children and I think most parents would have been happy with this. This would have facilitated a more cautioned approach to reopening the schools
Also Im surprised that school buses are allowed to run - all classes will be mixing on dirty poorly ventilated buses. It makes a complete joke of older children and social distancing. How are drivers going to supervise who kids sit beside - its beyond their remit. All children who travel by bus will be arriving to the school at the same time.

Blended learning/ homeschooling - I am so so annoyed that no guidance was given on this. How hard would it have been to put a standard plan together on this that each school would have to follow should the school have to close. I think it is a given that schools will have to close at some time over the winter given the approach taken by the DOE - then we will be back to the unfair mess this was during lockdown.

Also my children seem to have snotty noses for most of the winter ( as do most children lets face it) - its not even a cold - just snotty noses for no apparent reason. I reckon they are going to miss a lot of school due to this.

So do a lot of teenagers and people in their 20s after been on the bag for the weekend

Alrigghtythen

Deeec wrote: »

I think the plans issued yesterday were very poor and don't address most of the issues school face. I was fully prepared for a 2/3 day part time return for children and I think most parents would have been happy with this. This would have facilitated a more cautioned approach to reopening the schools
Also Im surprised that school buses are allowed to run - all classes will be mixing on dirty poorly ventilated buses. It makes a complete joke of older children and social distancing. How are drivers going to supervise who kids sit beside - its beyond their remit. All children who travel by bus will be arriving to the school at the same time.

Blended learning/ homeschooling - I am so so annoyed that no guidance was given on this. How hard would it have been to put a standard plan together on this that each school would have to follow should the school have to close. I think it is a given that schools will have to close at some time over the winter given the approach taken by the DOE - then we will be back to the unfair mess this was during lockdown.

Also my children seem to have snotty noses for most of the winter ( as do most children lets face it) - its not even a cold - just snotty noses for no apparent reason. I reckon they are going to miss a lot of school due to this.

Why wouldn't school buses be running? Public transport is running and children will be in the same "bus group" every day with the same people. Bigger mix of people on public transport.

Are the buses dirty? Have you approached the company on this issue previously or asked them what steps they have taken to clean the buses? If the buses are dirty inspect the hygiene of it before you put your child on it. Or if it's a big concern could you organise a lift or let your child walk or cycle to school? But I agree the buses shouldn't be dirty. If they are not ventilated correctly, perhaps a window could be opened.

How long is the journey to school?

Will schools have to close or just classes being at home until test results return?

Deeec

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why wouldn't school buses be running? Public transport is running and children will be in the same "bus group" every day with the same people. Bigger mix of people on public transport.

Are the buses dirty? Have you approached the company on this issue previously or asked them what steps they have taken to clean the buses? If the buses are dirty inspect the hygiene of it before you put your child on it. Or if it's a big concern could you organise a lift or let your child walk or cycle to school? But I agree the buses shouldn't be dirty. If they are not ventilated correctly, perhaps a window could be opened.

How long is the journey to school?

Will schools have to close or just classes being at home until test results return?

Having kids mixing on a school bus makes a complete joke of the requirement of teachers to socially distance older kids in school.
My kids dont go on buses so I dont have this worry. Lets face it most buses are not the cleanest. As far as I know alot of the school buses are private contracts - This means the bus could be used by other groups in between school drop offs and collections. IMO this is risky.

Peter Flynt

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Hiw close do you stand to your pupils?

I'm a science teacher.
My students approach me and 3 or 4 of them would stand right next to me as I check safety for an experiment at their table for example

With demos there could be as many as 24 standing around me within 1-2m

The problem with this debate is that too many people haven't a clue what goes on in schools and think t why know from their school days 20 or 30 years ago

Alrigghtythen

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm a science teacher.
My students approach me and 3 or 4 of them would stand right next to me as I check safety for an experiment at their table for example

With demos there could be as many as 24 standing around me within 1-2m

The problem with this debate is that too many people haven't a clue what goes on in schools and think t why know from their school days 20 or 30 years ago

That was pre covid. What's your plan for doing safety checks and demonstrating post covid?

Loafing Oaf

Deeec wrote: »

I think the plans issued yesterday were very poor and don't address most of the issues school face. I was fully prepared for a 2/3 day part time return for children and I think most parents would have been happy with this. This would have facilitated a more cautioned approach to reopening the schools
Also Im surprised that school buses are allowed to run - all classes will be mixing on dirty poorly ventilated buses. It makes a complete joke of older children and social distancing.

Apparently siblings will be encouraged to sit together, which should help a bit...

byhookorbycrook

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sorry, they should be doing it now, not when the children are expecting to go back.

Many of us are- doing courses that we have paid for ourselves as the DES has nothing to offer.

lulublue22

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm a science teacher.
My students approach me and 3 or 4 of them would stand right next to me as I check safety for an experiment at their table for example

With demos there could be as many as 24 standing around me within 1-2m

The problem with this debate is that too many people haven't a clue what goes on in schools and think t why know from their school days 20 or 30 years ago

How people don’t see an issue with school transport is beyond me. To liken it to public transport is crazy- our school buses are full to capacity. No space for SD at all. Some of our children travel up to an hour / hour and a half every morning and evening. Our busses are contracted by bus eireann to private individuals who have different jobs in between the school run.

Deeec

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Apparently siblings will be encouraged to sit together, which should help a bit...

Yep thats the plan - Most siblings love sitting together when there friends are also around.......

glack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Hiw close do you stand to your pupils?

Seriously? Do you not remember being at school?

At times they are practically sitting on top of me! And it is nothing new for a small child to attempt to sit on your knee particularly after they have been hurt. Think of any child in your close circle and what is their understanding of personal space. If it’s non existent do you think that trait disappears when at school!! Please take a step back is something I say regularly.

Children would regularly be right next to their teacher - reading one on one, individual or small group work, hands on activities. Even just things like zipping their coat, putting on their gloves, cleaning their scrapped knee.

Deeec

lulublue22 wrote: »

How people don’t see an issue with school transport is beyond me. To liken it to public transport is crazy- our school buses are full to capacity. No space for SD at all. Some of our children travel up to an hour / hour and a half every morning and evening. Our busses are contracted by bus eireann to private individuals who have different jobs in between the school run.

Agree fully - it is madness to have school buses running.

byhookorbycrook

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Hiw close do you stand to your pupils?

In primary you stand/sit quite close to the children, to do things like listen to them reading, see how they are getting on with a particular task and providing individual support as needed, doing little assessment tasks etc. The days of a teacher at the top of the class are gone for decades.

Alrigghtythen

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

In primary you stand/sit quite close to the children, to do things like listen to them reading, see how they are getting on with a particular task and providing individual support as needed, doing little assessment tasks etc. The days of a teacher at the top of the class are gone for decades.

I suppose you'll just have to adapt to more peer to peer teaching techniques and technology. But it'll be no bother, dont want to be stuck in the past.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

lulublue22 wrote: »

How people don’t see an issue with school transport is beyond me. To liken it to public transport is crazy- our school buses are full to capacity. No space for SD at all. Some of our children travel up to an hour / hour and a half every morning and evening. Our busses are contracted by bus eireann to private individuals who have different jobs in between the school run.

What's the alternative?

lulublue22

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

What's the alternative?

Increased capacity either via extra school buses or staggered arrivals / departure from schools. Busses to be kept for school runs only , daily deep cleaning between runs and after runs. Though to be honest I’ve no idea why pointing out issues with various aspects of the return to school means that you need to solve those issues to. Is that not the dep remit ???

ETA temp check and masks mandatory.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

glack wrote: »

Seriously? Do you not remember being at school?

At times they are practically sitting on top of me! And it is nothing new for a small child to attempt to sit on your knee particularly after they have been hurt. Think of any child in your close circle and what is their understanding of personal space. If it’s non existent do you think that trait disappears when at school!! Please take a step back is something I say regularly.

Children would regularly be right next to their teacher - reading one on one, individual or small group work, hands on activities. Even just things like zipping their coat, putting on their gloves, cleaning their scrapped knee.

Nightmare inducing stuff altogether :eek:

Regularly telling kids to step back, if they are young then you know you're wasting your time.

They don't really do personal space well and maybe they like you and want to be close to you when they are hurt.

I'm presuming you chose a career where your workday evolves completely around children and that you had a clue about their behaviour before going down that career path?

Covid won't have changed children's behaviour much if they are younger, a few days of school and you might feel a bit more comfortable with it. Going back is hard and scary but people get over it pretty fast.

Loafing Oaf

lulublue22 wrote: »

Though to be honest I’ve no idea why pointing out issues with various aspects of the return to school means that you need to solve those issues to. Is that not the dep remit ???

Maybe there is no satisfactory solution for some of them

Deeec

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

What's the alternative?

I know alot of parents rely on school buses to get their children to school. Maybe spaces on the bus could be allocated on a need basis ie. parents have to prove they have no other way of getting their children to school. This would cut down on the amount of children per bus. I know in my kids school alot of the children who use the service have stay at home parents or work from home parents - is just means they dont have the hassle of drop offs an pickups. The need for school transport is not as great as it was years ago ( IMO).

I think it is silly that Johnny from 6th class can sit on the bus beside Paddy from 5th class for an hour on the bus in the morning and afternoon but the teacher has to work hard to keep them apart in school.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

lulublue22 wrote: »

Increased capacity either via extra school buses or staggered arrivals / departure from schools. Busses to be kept for school runs only , daily deep cleaning between runs and after runs. Though to be honest I’ve no idea why pointing out issues with various aspects of the return to school means that you need to solve those issues to. Is that not the dep remit ???

ETA temp check and masks mandatory.

But as you said "Our busses are contracted by bus eireann to private individuals who have different jobs in between the school run".

Plus there's no extra fleet waiting in the wings with drivers waiting to drive them.

So that alternative is not feasible at all.

lulublue22

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Maybe there is no satisfactory solution for some of them

Maybe not but as it stands school transport is an issue due to no SD and possible length of time on the bus. It certainly is not the same as travelling on public transport. It also makes a joke of pods if kids from all different levels are on school transport every day.

KerryConnor

I Agree you'll be in contact with toddlers bodily fluids over the course of the day which you usually aren't in a school.
However a secondary school teacher for example, might be in close contact (I think 40 mins in a packed classroom with an airborn virus can be discribed this way) with 200 adult sized humans in the course of 1 day.
I'm in primary and i think the risks are smaller, i'll be in contact with 30 smaller humans (smaller lungs or for whatever reason less infectious)

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The preschool child care have more contact hours and are a lot more up close and personal with bodily fluids than either secondary or primary school teachers.


I get that it may be scary for teachers. Yes it will be different and you will need to adapt. Haven't we all?

They should look to other industries to show them how it's done. The trail blazers who kept the country going while keeping covid out.

The school doors cant be kept shut forever

ldy4mxonucwsq6

lulublue22 wrote: »

Maybe not but as it stands school transport is an issue due to no SD and possible length of time on the bus. It certainly is not the same as travelling on public transport. It also makes a joke of pods if kids from all different levels are on school transport every day.

In that case everyday life where kids are all playing together, doing sports, having playdates, birthday parties etc is also making a joke of pods.

Don't focus on it too much, life is going on pretty much as normal outside of school pods, it's just that the dept had to be seen to be doing something as a nod to social distancing in school.

byhookorbycrook

How will buses manage with staggered drop offs ? Of parents with children in 3 different classes ?

KerryConnor

But I;d love to see a visual of how children's social circles change in and out of school. Currently my own children are reguarlly seeing a maximum of 10 chlidren between them. That'll increase to 130ish - 2 secondary and 1 primary child. I think naturally 'pods' or whatever you want to call them develop outside school.

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

In that case everyday life where kids are all playing together, doing sports, having playdates, birthday parties etc is also making a joke of pods.

Don't focus on it too much, life is going on pretty much as normal outside of school pods, it's just that the dept had to be seen to be doing something as a nod to social distancing in school.

Alrigghtythen

KerryConnor wrote: »

I Agree you'll be in contact with toddlers bodily fluids over the course of the day which you usually aren't in a school.
However a secondary school teacher for example, might be in close contact (I think 40 mins in a packed classroom with an airborn virus can be discribed this way) with 200 adult sized humans in the course of 1 day.
I'm in primary and i think the risks are smaller, i'll be in contact with 30 smaller humans (smaller lungs or for whatever reason less infectious)

Take 22 contact hours a week with 35? Pupils a class. That's 770 pupils a week they are in contact with. Less for most teachers involved in exam years and smaller classes.






https://www.tui.ie/second-level-hours-meetings/second-level-teaching-hours.2128.html


Teachers who are not involved in the delivery of Junior Cycle may be required to teach up to a maximum of 22 hours per week. The maximum weekly teaching hours for those involved in the delivery of Junior Cycle is 21 hours and 20 minutes.

A teacher in an Assistant Principal I post has maximum class contact hours of 18 hours per week if not involved in delivery of Junior Cycle and 17 hours 20 minutes if involved. Maximum teaching hours for principals and deputy principals are set out in a schedule in CL 58/98.

Bobtheman

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The preschool child care have more contact hours and are a lot more up close and personal with bodily fluids than either secondary or primary school teachers.


I get that it may be scary for teachers. Yes it will be different and you will need to adapt. Haven't we all?

They should look to other industries to show them how it's done. The trail blazers who kept the country going while keeping covid out.

The school doors cant be kept shut forever

Are you in a classroom or work place with 200/300 hundred people passing through? No screen as it's not practical in schools. So I take with a pinch of salt that we all adjusted. We all have but some more than others. I'd sympathise with a shop worker more than someone at home on zoom.
Schools are unique places. I have authority over kids but they ain't my employees. Completely unique legal framework.

Alrigghtythen

Bobtheman wrote: »

Are you in a classroom or work place with 200/300 hundred people passing through? No screen as it's not practical in schools. So I take with a pinch of salt that we all adjusted. We all have but some more than others. I'd sympathise with a shop worker more than someone at home on zoom.

No, nearer 900

Bobtheman

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

No, nearer 900

For you? Doing what?

Bruthal

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Your right, covid-19 is just the flu and hasn't killed anyone or brought the world to its knees for no reason at all

How many deaths from a particular cause does it take to bring the world to its knees?

deiseindublin

That's some room to fit 900 people. Fair play.

Crazy cramming kids into a classroom like this when Parnell Park tomorrow night will only have 120 in the stands and circa another 80 on the pitch, with a capacity of 14k or so, without the pitch.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Trailblazer has certainly raised my expectations.

I'm hoping for space exploration centre, cancer research facility as the workplace but 900 people in a room has me stumped.

Alrigghtythen

Lol, Rule 1 of exams,

Always read the question