How will schools be able to go back in September?

lulublue22

Lillyfae wrote: »

I have not mentioned teachers. There are other responsible parties. Parents, principals, BoM. It's been referenced here. There are schools who have done no preparation whatsoever.

So basically not teachers but principals, BOM ( who are made up of patents teachers and principal) and parents. Seriously I’ve heard it all - what stakeholders in their right mind won’t implement guidelines to the best of their ability in the middle of a pandemic so that they can say I told you so.

Murple

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If we have 180 teachers out sick with suspected Covid we have a major problem, all schools will be closed indefinitely.

You do know that teachers have a variety of reasons why they might be on sick leave/ absent other than Covid - tummy bug, kidney infection, back pain, urgent medical procedure/appointment, miscarriage, bereavement, car accident, severe migraine, flare up of an existing condition such as MS or rheumatoid arthritis, injury after a fall... I know it's so inconsiderate of teachers not to arrange all these for existing holiday times but you know, we'll do anything not to have to go to work.

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

Not all the time

In Germany there is a case of someone getting it from someone passing the salt

In China

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/a-woman-gave-coronavirus-to-71-people-by-doing-this/ar-BB16GeIH

Short of locking everyone in their homes, we can’t eliminate all opportunities for infection, so we go after the most likely- droplets at close contact and /or left on surfaces for short periods through poor sanitation. Make a large impact on these and the remainder do not cause a major issue

jimmytwotimes 2013

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Short of locking everyone in their homes, we can’t eliminate all opportunities for infection, so we go after the most likely- droplets at close contact and /or left on surfaces for short periods through poor sanitation. Make a large impact on these and the remainder do not cause a major issue

Masks a must I think we can agree

Lillyfae

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Name the schools

I know you're a latecomer to the thread, but have a read over it. I'm not going back through to find it for you, but iirc it was about a week ago. The principal told their vice principal and staff that they would be doing no organizing of anything, and it was up to them.

To others, I'm not going to multi-quote you, but it is already happening. From people popping off to Portugal for a few weeks holidays, to going to work with mild symptoms, to having house parties, to being pressured by employers to get back in the office when 100% of the work can be done at home. Why would the school environment be any different?

jimmytwotimes 2013

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Masks a must I think we can agree

Indoor where social distancing cannot be maintained. Not practical for young kids however

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

If it’s just a sniffle it will be gone in 48 hours. If it’s more that that shouldn’t be in school anyway

Do you professionally bury posts and say it'll be grand or is it just a hobby?

You are not a doctor. Telling people to go into work with a "sniffle" during a pandemic where there is proven asymptomatic transmission and large range of severity of illness and symptoms is highly irresponsible.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Lillyfae wrote: »

I know you're a latecomer to the thread, but have a read over it. I'm not going back through to find it for you, but iirc it was about a week ago. The principal told their vice principal and staff that they would be doing no organizing of anything, and it was up to them.

To others, I'm not going to multi-quote you, but it is already happening. From people popping off to Portugal for a few weeks holidays, to going to work with mild symptoms, to having house parties, to being pressured by employers to get back in the office when 100% of the work can be done at home. Why would the school environment be any different?

I'm not late to this thread, drop in and out.

So a random anonymous post not naming a school or the school was named?

Alrigghtythen

xhomelezz wrote: »

So you'll have 30 kids in class, 1 m SD if lucky, no proper air ventilation, no masks sitting there for 40 minutes. You split them to say 6 pods by 5 students. One of them will be positive in that environment.. how many out of 30 have a chance to contract virus? 1 pod?? You can send home all of them.

Why have none of these classroom ventilation?

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Because currently we are averaging just over 24 hours,

Really? Have you a link for that?

The HSE say

Most people will get their test results back within 3 days, but it can take longer.

Obviously people in a hospital get them far quicker.

12-24 hours according to the HSE.

So what is the actual turnaround of a community test in Ireland now?

Deleted User wrote: »

Because the measures that remain in place and the wider public awareness will prevent the type of surge seen in March. Less opportunity for infections less infections. Because the same measures that reduce COVID will also reduce other respiratory infection such has already been seen in the Australian flu season.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-23/coronavirus-restrictions-cause-flu-cases-to-drop-australia/12480190

#Science

But the measures that contributed to flu decline in Australia will not remain in place here.

Did you actually read your link?

Closing schools, maintaining physical distancing and boosting hand hygiene have all contributed to the massive decline in flu diagnoses and deaths.

"The main reasons are due to social distancing, as influenza is spread just like COVID-19 is," Professor Barr said.

"And the closure of schools probably also has a big part in the transmission of the flu in a normal season."

We are fully opening schools coming into flu season.

Also the vast vast amount of symptoms that will require testing are not caused by the Flu.

#science

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Do you professionally bury posts and say it'll be grand or is it just a hobby?

You are not a doctor. Telling people to go into work with a "sniffle" during a pandemic where there is proven asymptomatic transmission and large range of severity of illness and symptoms is highly irresponsible.

That is actually the complete opposite of what I have said.

downthemiddle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So what’s your solution then if not to leave schools closed? Compromises and difficult choices will be required. But the alternative is not to open the schools at all

The solution was meant to be in the document. The solution provided is to deprive the most vulnerable of their right to an education. Do you think this “difficult choice “ is acceptable?

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Really? Have you a link for that?

The HSE say



Obviously people in a hospital get them far quicker.

12-24 hours according to the HSE.

So what is the actual turnaround of a community test in Ireland now?



But the measures that contributed to flu decline in Australia will not remain in place here.

Did you actually read your link?



We are fully opening schools coming into flu season.

Also the vast vast amount of symptoms that will require testing are not caused by the Flu.

#science

Do you not agree that improved sanitation, social distancing, those who can work from home continuing to do so, masks indoors etc etc etc will not reduce the occurrence of other respiratory illnesses? How is that?

#science

xhomelezz

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why have none of these classroom ventilation?

Maybe some have, but not all. Unless you count windows.

Lillyfae

downthemiddle wrote: »

The solution was meant to be in the document. The solution provided is to deprive the most vulnerable of their right to an education. Do you think this “difficult choice “ is acceptable?

Of course it's not acceptable, but what's your alternative? Only educate the most vulnerable, or educate everyone to the best possible standard under the current circumstances for as long as is necessary??

lulublue22

Lillyfae wrote: »

I know you're a latecomer to the thread, but have a read over it. I'm not going back through to find it for you, but iirc it was about a week ago. The principal told their vice principal and staff that they would be doing no organizing of anything, and it was up to them.

To others, I'm not going to multi-quote you, but it is already happening. From people popping off to Portugal for a few weeks holidays, to going to work with mild symptoms, to having house parties, to being pressured by employers to get back in the office when 100% of the work can be done at home. Why would the school environment be any different?

That is very different to stating guidelines being very loosely applied by stake holders so that the pandemic can flare up again and schools can close. Particularly in the context of this discussion on the guidelines issued by the dep.

Alrigghtythen

xhomelezz wrote: »

Maybe some have, but not all. Unless you count windows.

Why wouldn't the windows be counted? I'd be odd to leave them out

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not agree that improved sanitation, social distancing, those who can work from home continuing to do so, masks indoors etc etc etc will not reduce the occurrence of other respiratory illnesses? How is that?

#science

There is no recommendation for 1.1 million to wear masks in schools, schools as your link stated are a major contributor to the spread of respiratory illnesses. As are hospitals, there was 180 people on trolleys yesterday in July.

But tangents.

Could you back up your claim a community referral test is turned around in 24 hours on average?

jimmytwotimes 2013

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you not agree that improved sanitation, social distancing, those who can work from home continuing to do so, masks indoors etc etc etc will not reduce the occurrence of other respiratory illnesses? How is that?

#science

But there won't be social distancing is the problem. Each student who spoke on Prime Time last night said its going to be near impossible to SD at their schools.

Closing the schools isn't a option but some thinking outside the box wud help.

A full return and hope for the best isn't good enuf either

What's annoying is, when you describe concerns or point out what could have been done much better, you're just accused of not wanting to work

These 'guidelines' are thrown together and we could do much better in trying to protect all concerned

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why wouldn't the windows be counted? I'd be odd to leave them out

Windows are to be left open at all times I assume, classroom doors too.

According to the classroom plan diagrams, we'll have students stuck to the walls by the windows so I hope they bring good coats for the winter months, it'll be freezing

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

Short of locking everyone in their homes, we can’t eliminate all opportunities for infection, so we go after the most likely- droplets at close contact and /or left on surfaces for short periods through poor sanitation. Make a large impact on these and the remainder do not cause a major issue

You are deliberately presenting a limited set of choices.....continually.

• locking people in homes
• closing schools for 4 years.

It's all balderdash and it's dangerous. Telling teachers to man up buttercup.

Minimising the role of science in understanding this.
Polluting the thread with nothingness.

If this is your job then no worries carry on.

There are alternatives.
You don't have to just float with the flotsam.
Sometimes you have to jettison the jetsam though.
This plan being part of the latter.

FFS even Sinn Fein and the DUP are in agreement.
Makes Michael and Leo look like a pair of muppets / PUPPETS.

https://twitter.com/GabrielScally/status/1286682752268541952?s=20

Alrigghtythen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Windows are to be left open at all times I assume, classroom doors too.

According to the classroom plan diagrams, we'll have students stuck to the walls by the windows so I hope they bring good coats for the winter months, it'll be freezing

They all be getting coats for christmas

Boggles

If they open the windows in the prefabs it will be hypothermia not Covid that will get them.

lulublue22

Lillyfae wrote: »

Of course it's not acceptable, but what's your alternative? Only educate the most vulnerable, or educate everyone to the best possible standard under the current circumstances for as long as is necessary??

If SET is to be pulled at will then we are not educating everyone to the best of our ability. We are constantly pulling resources from those that need it most. How about a limit on the amount of times SET could be pulled and instead the class sent home? Fairer to everyone now - all bearing a share of the pain no ? No way why ? because if classes were sent home - there would be uproar. Parents wouldn't be long seeing the shambles of our sub system. Much easier to pull from those who don’t cause a fuss.

BonsaiKitten

To all teachers on thread, I hope you've prepared your inbox for the inevitable "my Sneachta needs to be in a pod with Fuinneog and Realtín" emails

https://www.facebook.com/307568483030995/posts/1001947273593109/

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

There is no recommendation for 1.1 million to wear masks in schools, schools as your link stated are a major contributor to the spread of respiratory illnesses. As are hospitals, there was 180 people on trolleys yesterday in July.

But tangents.

Could you back up your claim a community referral test is turned around in 24 hours on average?

Closest I can find is median referral to result of 1.8 days last week. So test turnaround must be less than that

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0722/1154807-covid19-coronavirus-ireland/

Now do you honestly believe the measures that will remain in place when schools return will not reduce the spread of all respiratory infections this winter? Infections that get into school don’t just appear, they are carried in by what is going on in wider society and the difference in how we will be living our lives over the next while are going to have a significant impact on all transmissible illnesses

khalessi

Well a friend of mine got tested in Monaghan last week and it took 5 days to get results and he was off work very annoyed for a week.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

You are deliberately presenting a limited set of choices.....continually.

• locking people in homes
• closing schools for 4 years.

It's all balderdash and it's dangerous. Telling teachers to man up buttercup.

Minimising the role of science in understanding this.
Polluting the thread with nothingness.

If this is your job then no worries carry on.

There are alternatives.
You don't have to just float with the flotsam.
Sometimes you have to jettison the jetsam though.
This plan being part of the latter.

FFS even Sinn Fein and the DUP are in agreement.
Makes Michael and Leo look like a pair of muppets / PUPPETS.

https://twitter.com/GabrielScally/status/1286682752268541952?s=20

Where are the scientists decrying our return to school plans? It’s mainly teachers and parents from what I see.

The anti science are those who presents single tweets as evidence, or even those who go to the trouble of creating fake tweets. Any on this thread done that at any stage in these forums Caveat?

Lillyfae

lulublue22 wrote: »

If SET is to be pulled at will then we are not educating everyone to the best of our ability. We are constantly pulling resources from those that need it most. How about a limit on the amount of times SET could be pulled and instead the class sent home? Fairer to everyone now - all bearing a share of the pain no ? No way why ? because if classes were sent home - there would be uproar. Parents wouldn't be long seeing the shambles of our sub system. Much easier to pull from those who don’t cause a fuss.

To be honest my preference for a teacher having to isolate would be for the class to isolate too and have online lessons for the length of time. I hope there's a better infrastructure available for that soon.

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

To all teachers on thread, I hope you've prepared your inbox for the inevitable "my Sneachta needs to be in a pod with Fuinneog and Realtín" emails

https://www.facebook.com/307568483030995/posts/1001947273593109/

And they say there's an attitude towards teachers :P

jrosen

Contact tracing will be used, important to encourage all secondary school kids who have phones (which is usually all) to download the app. Will make things faster and easier when they return.

We will just have to accept we will see classes sent home, we will possibly see individual schools close too.

But we are not dealing with small kids either at secondary level, they are old enough to have the risk explained to them. They need to take some personal responsibility too and follow guidelines.
The schools will need to implement rules around movement within their schools, be it close locker rooms, keep kids in their home room class and have the teachers move? That in itself will keep movement to a minimum. Teachers will need to sanitize down the desks as they use them in class, carry a pencil case, use only their own stuff. Perhaps even changing the time table to have more double classes? I know its long but again less movement.

jrosen

jrosen wrote: »

Contact tracing will be used, important to encourage all secondary school kids who have phones (which is usually all) to download the app. Will make things faster and easier when they return.

We will just have to accept we will see classes sent home, we will possibly see individual schools close too.

But we are not dealing with small kids either at secondary level, they are old enough to have the risk explained to them. They need to take some personal responsibility too and follow guidelines.
The schools will need to implement rules around movement within their schools, be it close locker rooms, keep kids in their home room class and have the teachers move? That in itself will keep movement to a minimum. Teachers will need to sanitize down the desks as they use them in class, carry a pencil case, use only their own stuff. Perhaps even changing the time table to have more double classes? I know its long but again less movement.

Excellent post

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Closest I can find is median referral to result of 1.8 days last week. So test turnaround must be less than that

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0722/1154807-covid19-coronavirus-ireland/

So nearly 2 days with very little community testing. At the moment, so you believe that can be improved on coming into the Autumn / Winter?

I am pretty sure it won't.

Deleted User wrote: »

Now do you honestly believe the measures that will remain in place when schools return will not reduce the spread of all respiratory infections this winter?

I honestly believe the lack of measures that are in place for schools will reseed Covid 19 in the community and play a significant role in re-implementing National Restrictions.

I am less worried about the common cold TBH.

ChelseaRentBoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Because currently we are averaging just over 24 hours, and have capacity to complete 100k per week. Because the measures that remain in place and the wider public awareness will prevent the type of surge seen in March. Less opportunity for infections less infections. Because the same measures that reduce COVID will also reduce other respiratory infection such has already been seen in the Australian flu season.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-23/coronavirus-restrictions-cause-flu-cases-to-drop-australia/12480190

#Science

My wife works in healthcare and it takes between 2-4 days to get results. She get's tested every Friday and she's had results on a Monday and at times it's taken a full week to return them although that is rare now. On average it's 3 days not 24hrs

Boggles

jrosen wrote: »

Contact tracing will be used, important to encourage all secondary school kids who have phones (which is usually all) to download the app. Will make things faster and easier when they return.

That would require a legislation change.

Legal age for digital consent is 16.

Also I imagine given the close proximity of school children in and out of the school.

The App may have a heart attack trying to keep up. :pac:

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

So nearly 2 days with very little community testing. At the moment, so you believe that can be improved on coming into the Autumn / Winter?

I am pretty sure it won't.



I honestly believe the lack of measures that are in place for schools will reseed Covid 19 in the community and play a significant role in re-implementing National Restrictions.

I am less worried about the common cold TBH.

I was talking about a less than 48 hour turnaround on testing, which we are achieving and improving all the time. And also about community measures reducing the impact of all respiratory infections this winter will result in us not seeing the level of referrals seen in early March . Schools are also not isolated from society, generating cases from nowhere. What happens in schools reflects what is going on in the broader community and schools are far more likely to be seeded from outside than visa versa

BonsaiKitten

Lillyfae wrote: »

And they say there's an attitude towards teachers :P

Oh I can assure you that's rooted in reality my friend! We get a couple of these types every year in my school.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

That would require a legislation change.

Legal age for digital consent is 16.

Also I imagine given the close proximity of school children in and out of the school.

The App may have a heart attack trying to keep up. :pac:

Would require parental consent for under 16’s. Also the app only logs phones within range for 15 minutes

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

I was talking about a less than 48 hour turnaround on testing, which we are achieving and improving all the time.

You were talking 24 hours a few posts back.

We are achieving this because testing in the community is minuscule.

Deleted User wrote: »

And also about community measures reducing the impact of all respiratory infections this winter will result in us not seeing the level of referrals seen in early March . Schools are also not isolated from society, generating cases from nowhere. What happens in schools reflects what is going on in the broader community and schools are far more likely to be seeded from outside than visa versa

Schools are the broader community FFS.

More than A fifth of the population will be returning to them in 4 weeks with a "sure it will be grand".

Here is a few cent per child per day, make it work or yer to blame.

To put the "plan" in perspective, schools are saying they do not have the capacity to social distance. There is no funding our recommendations for acquiring temporary accommodation.

There is nothing in the "plan" that addresses that.

You have actual teachers that work in actual schools telling you they have zero space.

Masks are not recommended.

Do you not see how deeply flawed in logically terms the "plan" actually is?

r93kaey5p2izun

So many post primary classrooms with inadequate ventilation. I hope that will be looked at. Lots of schools have boxed off wide areas of corridors that were intended for social spaces, but are now partitioned off into a classroom. No windows other than into the corridor. Also lots of old VEC schools are designed where half the rooms have double height sloping ceilings with a strip of glass (often corrugated perspex) at ceiling height to let in light, but no actual windows that open. Apart from that the rooms might have no windows or just one the size of a box room window even in a large room.

Lillyfae

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Oh I can assure you that's rooted in reality my friend! We get a couple of these types every year in my school.

Oh I'd say there's a few of every type in every corner of every school! I do wish there was a greater choice of Emojis on here :pac::p:cool:

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Would require parental consent for under 16’s. Also the app only logs phones within range for 15 minutes

Parent digital consent cannot actually be done easily.

Would take way too long.

It's why the likes of Whatsapp pushed their age limit up to 16 instead of getting into an administrative nightmare with 3rd party consent forms, etc.

caveat emptor

Look I know it's a very confusing and uncertain time.
Our government took the decision to close schools in the kids best interests.
I don't think I can say this plan is that.
Cherry picking and changing variable from other countries who fund and who have handled pandemic far better is not a realistic solution.

I know all of our little johnny's are wrecking our heads but kids do get this.
I just think they are going to wreck our heads even more when we have to home school them with impaired kidney function.

That's my honest opinion. People should be aware that this is new and we don't know what will happen, 1 year , 2 year or 5 years from now.

Have a read and address the authors if they've got it wrong. Read the literature and decide if you want to take a punt.

Conclusions and Relevance

In this case series of hospitalized children who met criteria for PIMS-TS
there was a wide spectrum of presenting signs and symptoms and disease severity,
ranging from fever and inflammation to myocardial injury, shock,
and development of coronary artery aneurysms.
The comparison with patients with KD and KD shock syndrome provides insights into this syndrome,
and suggests this disorder differs from other pediatric inflammatory entities.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2767209

Why do we continue to misunderestimate this pathogen?

https://twitter.com/QuickTake/status/1288459329566396417?s=20

combat14

interesting to see that schools in US are asking parents and teachers to sign covid 19 liability waivers that they wont sue the schools if they catch covid 19 in schools

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Parent digital consent cannot actually be done easily.

Would take way too long.

It's why the likes of Whatsapp pushed their age limit up to 16 instead of getting into an administrative nightmare with 3rd party consent forms, etc.

But it can be done if we deem it necessary. Under GDPR we can also set this age limit as low as 13 if we choose.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

But it can be done if we deem it necessary. Under GDPR we can also set this age limit as low as 13 if we choose.

We can do lots of things.

But what we can't do at this moment in time, like the poster I replied to suggested.

Is tell kids under the age of 16 to download and use the app.

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

But it can be done if we deem it necessary. Under GDPR we can also set this age limit as low as 13 if we choose.

HSE chose 16
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0530/1143516-covid-app-hse/

At the same time the HSE will limit the app to those aged over 16 in order; it says in order to comply with the digital age of consent.

jrosen

Boggles wrote: »

We can do lots of things.

But what we can't do at this moment in time, like the poster I replied to suggested.

Is tell kids under the age of 16 to download and use the app.

I said encourage not tell. We can then encourage all over the age of 16 to download the app then seeing as there is the age restriction.

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

HSE chose 16
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0530/1143516-covid-app-hse/

At the same time the HSE will limit the app to those aged over 16 in order; it says in order to comply with the digital age of consent.

Which we have chosen to set at 16, but can set as low as 13 if we choose

Smacruairi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which we have chosen to set at 16, but can set as low as 13 if we choose

We could also reduce class sizes, hire more teachers, spread out the school day. All easier just need proper investment and planning and don't require legislative changes. But that doesn't suit most.

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

Which we have chosen to set at 16, but can set as low as 13 if we choose

Well all legal requirements can be changed but it takes time and certain protocols have to be followed, as was pointed out to you. If it was just a case of going hey lets make it 13 they would have at the outset but obviously it it not.
We could legislate for 3 year olds to drive cars, a silly idea and not safe but it could be done.