How will schools be able to go back in September?

mcsean2163

iamwhoiam wrote: »

One of the problems now is the lack of strong leadership . In the beginning and up till very lately we sat down at 6 and watched the News . We hung on the R rate , the figures and the calm but authoritative voice of Tony
We waited to hear what Leo and Simon had to say , we listen and we agreed . We did as told , we stayed in , we scrubbed our hand if we so much as walked around the block . We had trust in them , we were led by them and we stayed within our guidelines
Now many are not listening , grown tired of the News and the R and the figures
We are not shocked into being careful , we are not stunned with deaths and ICU figures
Therin lies the problem , if the community was careful and spread contained the schools could open more safely
Then if Covid is not in the community the schools will be far safer
We have no real , strong , insistent leadership telling us that message and ensuring we get that message
If we want the schools open the community has to be far more intolerant of any breaches of the guidelines .

I agree, the changeover has not helped. Michael Martin has not followed up well. Varadkar should have stayed on, in fact I'd love to see an election now because the new government is a mess.

khalessi

Answered in blue

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Point might have been made already but if everybody is wearing masks and hand sanitisers etc are properly installed, rooms ventilated etc I don't see how this can spread in the class room.

Agreed, if all of that was implemented that would be great, but a lot of classrooms are not ventilated properly some windows don't open properly due to H&S and that is before you mention prefabs.

If there is a confirmed case, the whole school gets tested. That could surely be done easily enough? I'm not buying the "its not safe" argument any more.

I read an article during the week in The Independent where it was called for that testing for schools and teachers should be prioritised when schools reopen to ensure quick turn and minimal time out and minimal disruption to teaching, but it has not been implemented yet. It would be a great idea.

If students don't want to go back there should be an online option, if teachers don't want to go back they can be substituted and there is a Covid payment available to them like everybody else.

This still has to be sorted out.

Smacruairi

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Then use the school halls, use the local GAA club, halve the classes, get substitute/retired teachers to help out. It can be done!

Has already been discussed 50 pages back.

You often have 6 schools all looking to use the same parish halls or gaa clubs. They are very reluctant to rent out to schools for insurance reasons, and the cost is huge. The govt won't pay for renting, it comes from school funding,which is already stretched tight.

Retired teachers are in the high risk category, not a hope they are coming back. But also if you are splitting classes, who is paying them? The govt has said it will fund one extra teacher per school.in a post primary with 24 classes that is just hilarious levels of non funding.

Also where do you send those 24 classes? What happens to the kids who voluntarily opt out. You said you wanted a remote option. Who provides it? The teacher who has already spent 9-5 in the class with the ones who showed up?

There are always simple populist solutions thrown out. Teachers have thrown out our own nuanced solutions which have been totally ignored such as reduction in class sizes and contact time, developing online centralised platforms, diff curricula etc.

The fact that the plan is "everyone back to normal" should indicate to you that the DES needdd to do more. Think this is the 5th time I've had to hand hold someone through critical thinking.

khalessi

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They should be. Fully agree. Makes no sense. Another thought, what happened in the likes of Denmark where schools are back ages? I didn't hear anything about them all closing? Surely there are learnings from what they did?

Denmark opened with sd of 2 metres, shorter school day, and a max of 10 students in a class along with a host of other measures. They also hire bulidings as you suggested elsewhere and some kids even had classes in football stadiums and graveyards.

And even at that tens of thousands of parents did not send their children back straight away as they were worried.

https://www.thelocal.com/20200528/how-denmark-got-its-children-back-to-school
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/coronavirus-how-denmark-fared-on-first-days-of-reopened-schools-1.4231385

alroley

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They should be. Fully agree. Makes no sense. Another thought, what happened in the likes of Denmark where schools are back ages? I didn't hear anything about them all closing? Surely there are learnings from what they did?

Their class sizes are much smaller than ours. They put children into pods and had class outside as much as possible. I believe they also used other facilities such as churches to ensure social distancing (the last point may have been about another country I read about, it was definitely in Europe though).

PhilOssophy

Smacruairi wrote: »

Has already been discussed 50 pages back.

You often have 6 schools all looking to use the same parish halls or gaa clubs. They are very reluctant to rent out to schools for insurance reasons, and the cost is huge. The govt won't pay for renting, it comes from school funding,which is already stretched tight.

Retired teachers are in the high risk category, not a hope they are coming back. But also if you are splitting classes, who is paying them? The govt has said it will fund one extra teacher per school.in a post primary with 24 classes that is just hilarious levels of non funding.

Also where do you send those 24 classes? What happens to the kids who voluntarily opt out. You said you wanted a remote option. Who provides it? The teacher who has already spent 9-5 in the class with the ones who showed up?

There are always simple populist solutions thrown out. Teachers have thrown out our own nuanced solutions which have been totally ignored such as reduction in class sizes and contact time, developing online centralised platforms, diff curricula etc.

The fact that the plan is "everyone back to normal" should indicate to you that the DES needdd to do more. Think this is the 5th time I've had to hand hold someone through critical thinking.

No need for the patronising teacher attitude.....

If the first point you make is insurance and renting, that would seem a very easy thing to overcome. If there is a will there is a way, hotels have meeting rooms etc which aren't being used at the moment? Its easy to point to problems if you want to.

Maybe the remote option is provided by some teachers who are afraid to go back to the classroom? A proper online portal - fully agree, but not the hour or two which many provided from Feb this year....

Loafing Oaf

khalessi wrote: »

some kids even had classes in football stadiums and graveyards.

:eek:

Well it is Hamlet's country I suppose...

Alrigghtythen

Smacruairi wrote: »

Has already been discussed 50 pages back.

You often have 6 schools all looking to use the same parish halls or gaa clubs. They are very reluctant to rent out to schools for insurance reasons, and the cost is huge. The govt won't pay for renting, it comes from school funding,which is already stretched tight.

Retired teachers are in the high risk category, not a hope they are coming back. But also if you are splitting classes, who is paying them? The govt has said it will fund one extra teacher per school.in a post primary with 24 classes that is just hilarious levels of non funding.

Also where do you send those 24 classes? What happens to the kids who voluntarily opt out. You said you wanted a remote option. Who provides it? The teacher who has already spent 9-5 in the class with the ones who showed up?

There are always simple populist solutions thrown out. Teachers have thrown out our own nuanced solutions which have been totally ignored such as reduction in class sizes and contact time, developing online centralised platforms, diff curricula etc.

The fact that the plan is "everyone back to normal" should indicate to you that the DES needdd to do more. Think this is the 5th time I've had to hand hold someone through critical thinking.

Is that a primary or a secondary school the teacher have class contact in from 9-5?

A secondary school teacher has 22 teaching contact hours a week, less if they have exam years. 22/5 is 4 and a quarter hours contact time a day

khalessi

PhilOssophy wrote: »

No need for the patronising teacher attitude.....

If the first point you make is insurance and renting, that would seem a very easy thing to overcome. If there is a will there is a way, hotels have meeting rooms etc which aren't being used at the moment? Its easy to point to problems if you want to.

Maybe the remote option is provided by some teachers who are afraid to go back to the classroom? A proper online portal - fully agree, but not the hour or two which many provided from Feb this year....

The biggest problem is the government are not willing to throw money at education. When the hospitals were at the forefront they made a big of rentin hotels as step down, it was all over papers, but nothing about extra buildings for education.

In fact the schools have been told that they have to send 3 tenders for repairs or unpgrades to be carried before geting work done. And they have to exhaust all avenues

Ms Foley said schools would be required to "exhaust all other options" before resorting to off-campus accommodation, such as parish halls.

"They have to be able to show there was a justifiable need for that and that all other options have been exhausted," she told the Dáil.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/schools-face-delays-in-reopening-as-builders-must-tender-for-work-39415082.html


Like you Phillossophy I think we should be hiring the feck out of buildings, libraries hotels, whatever split the primary classes among them and get the kids to school

wirelessdude01

Don't you just love people who come in with suggestions that have already been discussed to death.

iamwhoiam

September is often a dry month so would primary teachers be willing to teach outside ? Not every school has the facility but plenty of schools have green areas and yards . It would certainly allow for more fresh air and less time in poorly ventilated rooms
I picked a child up from summer camp a few weeks ago and they were often outside with rain coats in playing outdoor games or sitting under a tree
We had fresh dry clothes at home to change her into and none of them rusted in the drizzle !

alroley

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Is that a primary or a secondary school the teacher have class contact in from 9-5?

A secondary school teacher has 22 teaching contact hours a week, less if they have exam years. 22/5 is 4 and a quarter hours contact time a day

No.

Alrigghtythen

alroley wrote: »

No.

Yes

https://www.tui.ie/benefits-and-services/new-to-teaching.1678.html#:~:text=A%20CID%20is%20a%20permanent,16%20hours%20in%20year%203.


What are the maximum class contact hours for a teacher?
A full-time teacher has a weekly maximum class contact time of 21 hours 20 minutes if he/she has any involvement in Junior Cycle. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 22 hours applies. As a result of a TUI Directive, any teacher appointed to an Assistant Principal 1 position and who has any involvement in Junior Cycle has a maximum class contact of 17 hours and 20 minutes. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 18 hours applies.

am_zarathustra

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Point might have been made already but if everybody is wearing masks and hand sanitisers etc are properly installed, rooms ventilated etc I don't see how this can spread in the class room.
If there is a confirmed case, the whole school gets tested. That could surely be done easily enough? I'm not buying the "its not safe" argument any more. If students don't want to go back there should be an online option, if teachers don't want to go back they can be substituted and there is a Covid payment available to them like everybody else.

There are no teachers, substitute or otherwise, there will be less in October when a raft of them retire. This has been repeatedly pointed out. Retired teachers won't come back and PMEs are already subbing full time in urban areas.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Then use the school halls, use the local GAA club, halve the classes, get substitute/retired teachers to help out. It can be done!

Again, no extra teachers. There are also not enough school halls to go around.

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Is that a primary or a secondary school the teacher have class contact in from 9-5?

A secondary school teacher has 22 teaching contact hours a week, less if they have exam years. 22/5 is 4 and a quarter hours contact time a day

I haven't a clue what this is about. Exam year teachers getting less time? Literally made up. A lot of teachers teach over the time too, I haven't taught to my allocated time in many years.

iamwhoiam

@wirelssdude
( sorry quote button stalled on me )

Not everyone has time to read 810 pages of posts . Everyone should be made welcome and opinions welcomed

Alrigghtythen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

There are no teachers, substitute or otherwise, there will be less in October when a raft of them retire. This has been repeatedly pointed out. Retired teachers won't come back and PMEs are already subbing full time in urban areas.



Again, no extra teachers. There are also not enough school halls to go around.



I haven't a clue what this is about. Exam year teachers getting less time? Literally made up. A lot of teachers teach over the time too, I haven't taught to my allocated time in many years.

Made up by the tui? Lol

alroley

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Yes

https://www.tui.ie/benefits-and-services/new-to-teaching.1678.html#:~:text=A%20CID%20is%20a%20permanent,16%20hours%20in%20year%203.


What are the maximum class contact hours for a teacher?
A full-time teacher has a weekly maximum class contact time of 21 hours 20 minutes if he/she has any involvement in Junior Cycle. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 22 hours applies. As a result of a TUI Directive, any teacher appointed to an Assistant Principal 1 position and who has any involvement in Junior Cycle has a maximum class contact of 17 hours and 20 minutes. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 18 hours applies.

Again, no.

That means any 1st, 2nd or 3rd year classes. Nothing to do with exams. You'd have 21 hrs 20 mins if you had one first year class and the rest of your timetable was TY.

am_zarathustra

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Yes

https://www.tui.ie/benefits-and-services/new-to-teaching.1678.html#:~:text=A%20CID%20is%20a%20permanent,16%20hours%20in%20year%203.


What are the maximum class contact hours for a teacher?
A full-time teacher has a weekly maximum class contact time of 21 hours 20 minutes if he/she has any involvement in Junior Cycle. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 22 hours applies. As a result of a TUI Directive, any teacher appointed to an Assistant Principal 1 position and who has any involvement in Junior Cycle has a maximum class contact of 17 hours and 20 minutes. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 18 hours applies.

Again you are just showing you haven't a clue. This is for the new Junior Cycle reform and it is to account for the time spent in SLARS and subject meetings etc. There is more to it than that but you can look it up if your that interested.

It is sweet f all to do with if you are teaching a class sitting a state exam.

Greensoup

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Again you are just showing you haven't a clue. This is for the new Junior Cycle reform and it is to account for the time spent in SLARS and subject meetings etc. There is more to it than that but you can look it up if your that interested.

It is sweet f all to do with if you are teaching a class sitting a state exam.

I have 2 leaving cert classes and 2 3rd year classes as part of my timetable....I have 32 forty minute class periods per week which is 21.3 teaching hours. The Assisstant Principal 1 are people like year heads...some of their 22 hours is set aside for year head admin such as absent notes etc so they have a few hours less class teaching for this.

alroley

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Made up by the tui? Lol

Why are you trying to correct people about their own jobs?

What you posted from the TUI has nothing to do with what you said about teachers with exam years having less hours.

Alrigghtythen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Again you are just showing you haven't a clue. This is for the new Junior Cycle reform and it is to account for the time spent in SLARS and subject meetings etc. There is more to it than that but you can look it up if your that interested.

It is sweet f all to do with if you are teaching a class sitting a state exam.

How many class contact hours a week do you have?

PhilOssophy wrote: »

No need for the patronising teacher attitude.....

If the first point you make is insurance and renting, that would seem a very easy thing to overcome. If there is a will there is a way, hotels have meeting rooms etc which aren't being used at the moment? Its easy to point to problems if you want to.

Maybe the remote option is provided by some teachers who are afraid to go back to the classroom? A proper online portal - fully agree, but not the hour or two which many provided from Feb this year....

I believe some are looking in to hiring the convention centre. It'll be interesting to see if the secure.

Blondini

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Made up by the tui? Lol

Lol yourself.

I have 22 hours and I teach 6th years i.e an exam class.

Calling me a liar , eh , eh?

Have a break. You need it.

khalessi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How many class contact hours a week do you have?




I believe some are looking in to hiring the convention centre. It'll be interesting to see if the secure.

It is already being hired out by our wonderful TDs

Alrigghtythen

khalessi wrote: »

It is already being hired out by our wonderful TDs

They were probably willing to pay for it

wirelessdude01

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How many class contact hours a week do you have?




I believe some are looking in to hiring the convention centre. It'll be interesting to see if the secure.

They'll have to kick the aul TDs out!!

I wonder where any school would find the 25K daily hire fee!!!

khalessi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

They were probably willing to pay for it

€50,000 a day

Alrigghtythen

Blondini wrote: »

Lol yourself.

I have 22 hours and I teach 6th years i.e an exam class.

Calling me a liar , eh , eh?

Have a break. You need it.

22 hours contact time, that's a lot less than the pre school workers or any public facing role

Alrigghtythen

khalessi wrote: »

€50,000 a day

I doubt it, the local community centre was considered a luxury by the bom

khalessi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I doubt it, the local community centre was considered a luxury by the bom

That is what the TDs are paying.

Oranage2

Any news when the universities might open?

alroley

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

22 hours contact time, that's a lot less than the pre school workers or any public facing role

I don't think preschool would be a lot more than that...

Also you're forgetting about S&S, which will likely be increased next year due to all the absences. When schools closed in March I was only 2 hours off the limit for the year and that's not including the non-S&S favours I did for covering classes when our deputy couldn't find a sub.

wirelessdude01

Oranage2 wrote: »

Any news when the universities might open?

DCU and UCD are fully online until Christmas or so I read a while back.

F5500

Oranage2 wrote: »

Any news when the universities might open?

My brother going in to 1st year in UL and they're looking at going back 1 week on campus, 3 weeks at home.

Can't 100% remember when he said what date they'd be back, but late September iirc.

newuser99999

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

DCU and UCD are fully online until Christmas or so I read a while back.

No universities have said that they are to be fully online..

Blondini

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

22 hours contact time, that's a lot less than the pre school workers or any public facing role

I know right! A lot less.

And better holidays.

Alrigghtythen

Blondini wrote: »

I know right! A lot less.

And better holidays.

46% less that a standard 39 hour week for most public facing roles.

khalessi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

46% less that a standard 39 hour week for most public facing roles.

So do you believe that face to face contact time is all teaching is?

am_zarathustra

Greensoup wrote: »

I have 2 leaving cert classes and 2 3rd year classes as part of my timetable....I have 32 forty minute class periods per week which is 21.3 teaching hours. The Assisstant Principal 1 are people like year heads...some of their 22 hours is set aside for year head admin such as absent notes etc so they have a few hours less class teaching for this.

I assume you meant to quote Alrigghtythen and not me here

Ap1s now generally have two whole school roles or one very big one. Year head is no longer acceptable by itself.

Alrigghtythen

khalessi wrote: »

So do you believe that face to face contact time is all teaching is?

Where did I say that? That's an odd conclusion for you to jump to.

Is the concern not the amount of time the teacher will be in the poorly ventilated room with the students? I'm just quantifying the time teachers are in the poorly ventilated room with the students.

am_zarathustra

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How many class contact hours a week do you have?




I believe some are looking in to hiring the convention centre. It'll be interesting to see if the secure.

I taught about 24 contact hours last year along with being an AP1 so I was Year Head to 2 years, in charge of Assessment across the school and ICT. I also coach 2 teams in the school. I had 2 leaving cert classes. The correcting for them alone would have been around 10 hours per week. This would be more for an English teacher in fairness so I won't complain too much. Roughly for every hour you teach you can assume 1 hour of prep and correcting, more at the start of your career where you wouldn't have that much experience and things would take longer. And of course I am a practical subject teachers so also equipment and chemicals need preparing.

Blondini

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

46% less that a standard 39 hour week for most public facing roles.

Don't forget the fur-lined whiteboard erasers, valet parking and the Cuban cigars at lunchtime...

khalessi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Where did I say that? That's an odd conclusion for you to jump to.

Is the concern not the amount of time the teacher will be in the poorly ventilated room with the students? I'm just quantifying the time teachers are in the poorly ventilated room with the students.

I am just asking a question and looking for a yes or no answer. Simple

am_zarathustra

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How many class contact hours a week do you have?




I believe some are looking in to hiring the convention centre. It'll be interesting to see if the secure.

I taught about 24 contact hours last year along with being an AP1 so I was Year Head to 2 years, in charge of Assessment across the school and ICT. I also coach 2 teams in the school. I had 2 leaving cert classes. The correcting for them alone would have been around 10 hours per week. This would be more for an English teacher in fairness so I won't complain too much. Roughly for every hour you teach you can assume 1 hour of prep and correcting, more at the start of your career where you wouldn't have that much experience and things would take longer. And of course I am a practical subject teachers so also equipment and chemicals need preparing.

So what do you do? Can I have a breakdown of exactly how you spend your hours every day?

I worked in private industry and in a university. I work longer hours now

Alrigghtythen

khalessi wrote: »

I am just asking a question and looking for a yes or no answer. Simple

It's an odd question but I'll humour you

So do you believe that face to face contact time is all teaching is?
No

khalessi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

It's an odd question but I'll humour you

So do you believe that face to face contact time is all teaching is?
No

THank you as I was confused from your posts and wanted to clarify.

Alrigghtythen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I taught about 24 contact hours last year along with being an AP1 so I was Year Head to 2 years, in charge of Assessment across the school and ICT. I also coach 2 teams in the school. I had 2 leaving cert classes. The correcting for them alone would have been around 10 hours per week. This would be more for an English teacher in fairness so I won't complain too much. Roughly for every hour you teach you can assume 1 hour of prep and correcting, more at the start of your career where you wouldn't have that much experience and things would take longer. And of course I am a practical subject teachers so also equipment and chemicals need preparing.

So what do you do? Can I have a breakdown of exactly how you spend your hours every day?

I worked in private industry and in a university. I work longer hours now

Your prep and correction time are not student contact time unless you are doing your prep in the class while the students are there. If so you'll need to make alternative arrangements for extra year.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Made up by the tui? Lol

Class contact time in Ireland is one of the highest in Europe. Also class contact time isn't the only work done. Lessons don't prepare themselves and classwork doesn't correct itself

Alrigghtythen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Class contact time in Ireland is one of the highest in Europe. Also class contact time isn't the only work done. Lessons don't prepare themselves and classwork doesn't correct itself

Can you not do your prep and correction in another location other than in the class with all the students present? Theres a virsus going around.

am_zarathustra

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Can you not do your prep and correction in another location other than in the class with all the students present? Theres a virsus going around.

What other location, all the rooms are being used remember? sure you are telling us to rent out the local church or whatever. I cannot leave the site as I am a Year Head. Our current prep room might fit 4 people with SD at a stretch. Hopefully the practical rooms won't need to be timetabled all classes but I'm not really sure what staff will do in between classes for planning. I imagine it will vary massively depending on schools

Alrigghtythen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

What other location, all the rooms are being used remember? sure you are telling us to rent out the local church or whatever.

You ask what other locations and then you say I've been telling you other locations. Read the other locations I already gave then?

* I never said the local church, but hey if its a viable option. It might have side rooms or be useful for music or choir practice. I did say community centres and a few other places