How will schools be able to go back in September?

am_zarathustra

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Are there any European schools that have full mandatory mask wearing for pupils in schools?

From what I can tell there aren't.

They are mandatory in some countries secondary schools in certain circumstances e.g moving through communal areas or similar to our own guidance where SD can't be maintained.

But I don't know if any European country has a blanket compulsory mask wearing rule for pupils in schools.

We need to be careful and take a balanced approach to it. Schools have been open for many weeks across Europe and it hasn't led to a significant increase in cases in those settings.

The lack of a a national policy is down to how education governance works in those counties. Most if not all areas of France have mandatory masks for 11 year olds and up, they are mandatory in lots of areas if not all areas in Germany, but again it would be state mandates which could vary, in Bavaria its everyone over 7 I think, Spain again I think totally mandatory.

Schools across europe have opened in very different ways. I have not seen a class of 30 anywhere. If you give me 12 kids in a room, 2m apart I'm not at all concern.....lets not pretend thats what we have, we all know it's not true.

Sammy2012

helpful wrote: »

Talking to a crèche worker recently who said that everything just seems normal and she isn’t sure why the teachers are making such a big deal out of it. I’m not sure what her numbers are but I know in preschool the ratio is 1 adult for 11 children. Preschool aged children would be less likely to comprehend social distancing so if they’re doing it I’m sure children in formal education will cope. They’ll need to be told the rules and a strict adherence enforced.

was speaking to a creche worker on Thursday and they are in a pod with 3 children. Not at all comparable with school.

am_zarathustra

This is worth a look for anyone who would actually like to see a comparable plan to ours in action.......take a look in the future.

"Israeli schools reopened in May, not with the under-9s as originally planned, but with all ages together. When a heat wave swelled temperatures to over 100 degrees Fahrenheit, mask requirements were dropped. Outbreaks followed quickly, causing a new shutdown.

Based on UNESCO and Israeli government data, around 26,000 of Israel’s roughly 120,000 teachers are positive for the coronavirus or in isolation. Siegal Sadetzki, Israel’s top health official, resigned, claiming her advice had been ignored."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/30/open-schools-exception-not-rule-387507

They started with masks, slow and steady and rates remained low. Then they abandoned masks and they had a massive surge. Over a third of all cases in Isreal are directly to do with educational settings. I really dont want to bring the kids back to send them home 5 weeks later because we didn't get them to wear masks. That just seems stupid. We know it will help so just do it.

Risteard81

am_zarathustra wrote: »

This is worth a look for anyone who would actually like to see a comparable plan to ours in action.......take a look in the future.

"Israeli schools reopened in May, not with the under-9s as originally planned, but with all ages together. When a heat wave swelled temperatures to over 100 degrees Fahrenheit, mask requirements were dropped. Outbreaks followed quickly, causing a new shutdown.

Based on UNESCO and Israeli government data, around 26,000 of Israel’s roughly 120,000 teachers are positive for the coronavirus or in isolation. Siegal Sadetzki, Israel’s top health official, resigned, claiming her advice had been ignored."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/30/open-schools-exception-not-rule-387507

They started with masks, slow and steady and rates remained low. Then they abandoned masks and they had a massive surge. Over a third of all cases in Isreal are directly to do with educational settings. I really dont want to bring the kids back to send them home 5 weeks later because we didn't get them to wear masks. That just seems stupid. We know it will help so just do it.

The alleged cases in Occupied Palestine had nothing to do with masks.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

am_zarathustra wrote: »

This is worth a look for anyone who would actually like to see a comparable plan to ours in action.......take a look in the future.

"Israeli schools reopened in May, not with the under-9s as originally planned, but with all ages together. When a heat wave swelled temperatures to over 100 degrees Fahrenheit, mask requirements were dropped. Outbreaks followed quickly, causing a new shutdown.

Based on UNESCO and Israeli government data, around 26,000 of Israel’s roughly 120,000 teachers are positive for the coronavirus or in isolation. Siegal Sadetzki, Israel’s top health official, resigned, claiming her advice had been ignored."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/30/open-schools-exception-not-rule-387507

They started with masks, slow and steady and rates remained low. Then they abandoned masks and they had a massive surge. Over a third of all cases in Isreal are directly to do with educational settings. I really dont want to bring the kids back to send them home 5 weeks later because we didn't get them to wear masks. That just seems stupid. We know it will help so just do it.

Tracing found that infected teachers who taught multiple classes infected students in each class.

Probably a lot more to that than no masks = surge in cases.

drunkmonkey

Masks are a tiny part of the equation, they do not prevent covid. The original and main health instructions are still the best but are now being completely ignored. Wash your hands, keep a 2 meter distance, dispose of single use masks after use, wash your reusable mask regularly. This is not happening since masks were introduced, santaiser seems to have disappeared, we are and will continue to get increased cases without following the basics.
NPHET was reluctant to introduce masks as an advisory but eventually buckled to media pressure. It's been a huge mistake.

We have no plan B now, Goggles are next watch the media start to bang that drum shortly.
Covid begins and ends at our borders if Government are serious about schools mandatory quarantine has to be introduced, there's no other option.

How in the hell are schools going to control proper use of ppe, nobody is using masks properly.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Masks are a tiny part of the equation, they do not prevent covid. The original and main health instructions are still the best but are now being completely ignored. Wash your hands, keep a 2 meter distance, dispose of single use masks after use, wash your reusable mask regularly. This is not happening since masks were introduced, santaiser seems to have disappeared, we are and will continue to get increased cases without following the basics.
NPHET was reluctant to introduce masks as an advisory but eventually buckled to media pressure. It's been a huge mistake.

We have no plan B now, Goggles are next watch the media start to bang that drum shortly.
Covid begins and ends at our borders if Government are serious about schools mandatory quarantine has to be introduced, there's no other option.

How in the hell are schools going to control proper use of ppe, nobody is using masks properly.

Masks also give a false sense of security which can lead to people ignoring the basics. They probably are contributing to the problem at this stage.

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Masks also give a false sense of security which can lead to people ignoring the basics. They probably are contributing to the problem at this stage.

Masks are probably contributing to the problem at this stage? I'm sure you will produce some EVIDENCE to support this assertion otherwise it is dangerous speculation.

am_zarathustra

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Masks are a tiny part of the equation, they do not prevent covid. The original and main health instructions are still the best but are now being completely ignored. Wash your hands, keep a 2 meter distance, dispose of single use masks after use, wash your reusable mask regularly. This is not happening since masks were introduced, santaiser seems to have disappeared, we are and will continue to get increased cases without following the basics.
NPHET was reluctant to introduce masks as an advisory but eventually buckled to media pressure. It's been a huge mistake.

We have no plan B now, Goggles are next watch the media start to bang that drum shortly.
Covid begins and ends at our borders if Government are serious about schools mandatory quarantine has to be introduced, there's no other option.

How in the hell are schools going to control proper use of ppe, nobody is using masks properly.

If your only looking to stop particles from mouths circulating in a badly ventilated area anything over the mouth is better than nothing. It's also an opportunity to explain proper usage. I showed all my students how to wash their hands correctly (PP), I'm in room with a sink luckily. Also shows them how to correctly sanitise a table and why gloves weren't going to help much. But still showed them how to take them on and off. It's a good place for a nice chunk of society to learn the basics

If all of the above could be done if be happy but the reality is 2m is an absolute fiction in any class and most schools will struggle with 1m so we will need masks to stop droplets spreading.

I agree masks are only part of the equation but exponential growth rates need tight control so we shouldn't be leaving a tool out coz we don't like it. Half the kids will wear masks anyway, probably more. They will be protecting the ones that don't. The ones who are not careful with the health of others, who don't want to be inconvenienced by covid, which student do you think is engaging in risky behaviour?

drunkmonkey

The one touching their mask. I can't see it working, masks or no masks. Some schools will be fine as there in very low risk areas, Dublin, Kildare, Wicklow, Louth, Meath and Monaghan are the risky counties for teachers.

Murple

helpful wrote: »

Talking to a crèche worker recently who said that everything just seems normal and she isn’t sure why the teachers are making such a big deal out of it. I’m not sure what her numbers are but I know in preschool the ratio is 1 adult for 11 children. Preschool aged children would be less likely to comprehend social distancing so if they’re doing it I’m sure children in formal education will cope. They’ll need to be told the rules and a strict adherence enforced.

Can't say I know of a single creche that has over 450 children in it.
However I can think of at least 7 schools within a 5 mile radius of my own that have over 450 pupils and varying numbers of staff, minimum 25 staff per school.
There is far more to consider and far more to organise in a primary or secondary school than there is in a creche.

Scoondal

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Who cant cope? The rest of the country and department can cope, so who cant?

Ireland can't cope with re-opening schools. Most other European schools already completed schooling by re-opening in June. They are now preparing for their next school year.
I have seen online schooling that maintained a connection between the pupil and the school in France.
Why could Irish schools not do this ?

Murple

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The one touching their mask. I can't see it working, masks or no masks. Some schools will be fine as there in very low risk areas, Dublin, Kildare, Wicklow, Louth, Meath and Monaghan are the risky counties for teachers.

And a number of those counties are known as having the largest class sizes as well as larger schools in general.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

Masks are probably contributing to the problem at this stage? I'm sure you will produce some EVIDENCE to support this assertion otherwise it is dangerous speculation.

People wearing them incorrectly, putting them on and removing them incorrectly, fiddling and pulling at them, reusing them, not washing them.

Wearing them around their neck, not covering their chin, not covering their nose, hanging half off their ears.

Thinking if they are wearing a mask then they are fine and don't have to follow the basics.

Wearing a face mask incorrectly can do more harm than good and can actually increase the likely hood of being infected.

drunkmonkey

downthemiddle wrote: »

Masks are probably contributing to the problem at this stage? I'm sure you will produce some EVIDENCE to support this assertion otherwise it is dangerous speculation.

Check out how much hand sanstizing is going behind the plexiglass when your out and about tomorrow and also check how much mask wearers are keeping the 2 meter distance, also see do you notice anyone thouching the front of their mask then goods in store. Masks are not the magic wand you think they are, anyone that watched the debate with Cillian De Gascun and Ciara Kelly about mask wearing when the media were losing the rag over them not being mandatory knows there a double edged sword.

appledrop

Murple wrote: »

Can't say I know of a single creche that has over 450 children in it.
However I can think of at least 7 schools within a 5 mile radius of my own that have over 450 pupils and varying numbers of staff, minimum 25 staff per school.
There is far more to consider and far more to organise in a primary or secondary school than there is in a creche.

My son has gone back to creche + rules are unbelievable(in a good way, ). He has shoes that cant leave the creche. No bags are allowed + spare change of clothes left all time in creche. Also must wear fresh clothes everyday. He is in a small pod max about 8 kids. They all play together bur have own room + dont mix with any other pods. Each pod has staged drop off + pick up times to limit interaction. Basicially if child gets sick they can close one pod easily + should be no spread to other pods.


Meanwhile in primary 30 kids all together in one room, wearing same uniform for days on end + how the hell do you mange diffetent drop offs for 15-20 classes ?


Meanwhile at 2nd level could have 750-1000 in a school with 10 subject choices mixing multiple times a day/,week. You just can't limit it to pods at secondary due to subject choice. Then what about practical subjects like home economics, woodwork?


An absolute nighmare. I 100% believe the schools must reopen for well being of students but this isn't way to do it. Should be strict regulations like for reopening of creches.

Scoondal

downthemiddle wrote: »

Masks are probably contributing to the problem at this stage? I'm sure you will produce some EVIDENCE to support this assertion otherwise it is dangerous speculation.

People are wearing dirty masks. They might get sick by breathing in all that moist dirt. BUT WEAR A MASK.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

Masks are probably contributing to the problem at this stage? I'm sure you will produce some EVIDENCE to support this assertion otherwise it is dangerous speculation.

There's a reason why frontline healthcare workers receive training in the use of PPE.

https://www.vernacare.com/news-hub/blog/posts/2020/may/covid-19-expert-advice-on-ppe/


https://thehealthmania.com/paramedics-alert-about-incorrect-use-of-face-masks-that-increases-the-coronavirus-risk/4152/


https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/health/how-to-wear-mask-properly-wellness-trnd/index.html


https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/paramedics-say-weve-been-wearing-18682357

https://www.ajmc.com/view/during-covid19-cloth-masks-do-more-good-than-harm-authors-say-in-iannalsi

https://www.thenational.ae/uae/health/coronavirus-face-masks-may-do-more-harm-than-good-emirati-health-ministry-says-1.986379

The benefits of wearing a mask are still being disputed.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/28/do-face-masks-work-coronavirus-science/

khalessi

Scoondal wrote: »

People are wearing dirty masks. They might get sick by breathing in all that moist dirt. BUT WEAR A MASK.

You must know some strange people.

When a person breathes in the "moist dirt" is stuck to the outside of the mask which is either disposed or washed like most the people I know using them. Once they take them off, they throw them wither in the bin or washing machine then wash their hands then close door of washing machine and wash them. Anyone I know with masks have a collection of them.

Scoondal

Normally, by 3 August, I would have my son's books and stationery bought. I haven't bought anything yet. That shows my lack of confidence of schools re-opening soon.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There's a reason why frontline healthcare workers receive training in the use of PPE.

https://www.vernacare.com/news-hub/blog/posts/2020/may/covid-19-expert-advice-on-ppe/


https://thehealthmania.com/paramedics-alert-about-incorrect-use-of-face-masks-that-increases-the-coronavirus-risk/4152/


https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/health/how-to-wear-mask-properly-wellness-trnd/index.html


https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/paramedics-say-weve-been-wearing-18682357

https://www.ajmc.com/view/during-covid19-cloth-masks-do-more-good-than-harm-authors-say-in-iannalsi

https://www.thenational.ae/uae/health/coronavirus-face-masks-may-do-more-harm-than-good-emirati-health-ministry-says-1.986379

The benefits of wearing a mask are still being disputed.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/28/do-face-masks-work-coronavirus-science/

People dont wash their hands properly either and the amount of people I saw pre covid using public toilets and leaving without washing their hands -Huge!!!!

So should we stop handwashing.

No we promote correct mask wearing throught ads, radio, public announcements all the stuff we should have done months ago. I taught the children how to wash their hands and each group I took out had to sanitize their hands at the beginning and end of each group. It would not take them long to learn how to take off and put on a mask properly them they could teach their families.

Bananaleaf

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Tracing found that infected teachers who taught multiple classes infected students in each class.

Probably a lot more to that than no masks = surge in cases.

I'm only dipping back into this thread so apologies if I am mistaking you here, but by saying the above are you suggesting that the rise in cases had less to do with the non-wearing of masks and more to do with the fact that the teachers were teaching multiple classes (ie: didn't operate in pods)?

If that is what you are saying, (and maybe you get this, but some here don't seem to) THIS is why post primary teachers are on here "moaning" that it won't work for them. We can't operate with a pod system at second level, it is impossible to do that.

I get that masks aren't the magic solution, but, can I get a yes or no answer off you for this: in the absence of social distancing and/or a 'pod' system, are you saying that wearing no masks would be more beneficial than wearing them in a secondary school?

People can believe what they want, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of the 725odd PP schools in Ireland will not be able to implement SD and therefore will have to make wearing a mask mandatory, as per the roadmap instructions.

I appreciate that money has been given to schools to get them up and running for this, but it isn't enough to do what needs to be done. Systematic underfunding of education has seen to that. I have, over the past 5 years, been rudely awakened to the fact that us teachers have been our own worst enemies in this regard ... plugging holes in the budget by kitting out our own classrooms, bringing in soap and cleaning products from home etc. The top heads in our unions are worse than useless - you'd often be left wondering whose side they're on - how the area reps can put up with them is beyond my comprehension.

Yes, non teachers don't get what goes on in the classroom. How could they know? When we aren't hiding the truth from them (I know it comes from a place of care for students) the unions are making sure they stay quiet about it too.

The public need to know this - most PP schools won't be able to practice SD. Know that. Be aware of it. That way, IF (it might all be grand in the end) the schools close again in Oct/Nov, you won't have to ask why.

Unwind

Scoondal wrote: »

Normally, by 3 August, I would have my son's books and stationery bought. I haven't bought anything yet. That shows my lack of confidence of schools re-opening soon.

Feel exactly the same. Cannot envisage sending my kids back to full classrooms 'as normal' 8 months into a global pandemic....knowing what we now know about the probability of airborne transmission in crowded enclosed spaces...and that children do get infected and do transmit the virus.

Wish parents were at least being given a choice about whether or not to send our kids back into school buildings. Even if only a small percentage of parents feel it's too risky, we should have the option to keep them home and continue online learning. That would also reduce class sizes for those who really need to be in the classroom.

At this stage, I think they're going to go full steam ahead, everyone back to school full-time in full classrooms, regardless of the risks.

brian78

260 kids and teens infected with COVID-19 at Georgia sleepaway camp

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

People wearing them incorrectly, putting them on and removing them incorrectly, fiddling and pulling at them, reusing them, not washing them.

Wearing them around their neck, not covering their chin, not covering their nose, hanging half off their ears.

Thinking if they are wearing a mask then they are fine and don't have to follow the basics.

Wearing a face mask incorrectly can do more harm than good and can actually increase the likely hood of being infected.

Yet again your “evidence” is more speculation on your behalf.
You are now claiming to know what people think. Psychic Fringey!!!

xhomelezz

Unless somebody mentioned this already. Interesting read up on this thread https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058096353/1
Think it's important one closely connected to schools reopening.

s1ippy

brian78 wrote: »

260 kids and teens infected with COVID-19 at Georgia sleepaway camp

https://twitter.com/amymaxmen/status/1289241881537392640?s=20

Very troubling.

jlm29

downthemiddle wrote: »

Yet again your “evidence” is more speculation on your behalf.
You are now claiming to know what people think. Psychic Fringey!!!

In fairness, this is easily observed. Since face masks became compulsory, or strongly encouraged, or whatever they are now, people are ignoring the hand sanitiser on the way into shops, standing on top of each other, coughing all over each other, and shops are definitely more crowded. I almost went into my local centra on Saturday, but I just looked in the door, it was packed with adults and children alike, just after GAA training finished. Far too many people to be safely in a small shop, but nobody seemed bothered, because the adults had masks on.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

Yet again your “evidence” is more speculation on your behalf.
You are now claiming to know what people think. Psychic Fringey!!!

I posted six articles above, plenty more like them from infection control experts and scientists, so no it's not just speculation.

There's is evidence that:

1. Masks may cause more infections when not used properly

2. Questionable efficacy of masks when used outside of healthcare settings.

Like I said a balanced approach, pros v cons. Masks are only part of a number of measures and there are others that can reduce transmission.

Let's not get caught up on everyone wearing masks.

s1ippy

Most of the staff at the camp above didn't get infected and they did require them to wear masks.