How will schools be able to go back in September?

Bananaleaf

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

The poster I replied to implied that the surge was caused by the schools abandoning mask wearing and that we would see the same here if kids didn't wear them.

I was pointing out, in the case that they mentioned, it was actually due to teachers infecting students across multiple classes.

I don't think there was any one factor involved but it probably wasn't just due to the fact that masks weren't being worn.

Masks can actually cause more trouble if they aren't used correctly, I think weighing it up their benefits would be questionable in a school setting.

Thanks for the reply.

This is the problem the PP schools will be facing though. I interact with 150+ students per week. On any given day I might see 120+ of them. In various different classes of 30. Different year groups, different subjects.

From students perspective, they would be in a room without SD with up to 10 different teachers every day.

I agree with you on the masks. They aren't the answer and yes a lot of people are not using them correctly. I see people come out of the shops and hang them on their rear view mirror. Just swooshing the virus around their car, with all the windows closed as they drive home. But for PP, even at that, it has to be better than nothing.

Windows need to be open in classrooms all day (I know a lot have minimal ventilation via the windows due to how they are installed) but for a lot of classrooms masks are the "least bad option" (to quote Breda O'Brien on the subject of opening of schools altogether, never mind the use of masks)

xhomelezz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We have proof that masks don’t work. We flattened the curve and kept it flat for a couple of months without masks. Nobody was wearing them in supermarkets or anywhere and we weren’t all catching Covid.

In fact, since more started wearing masks, the numbers have began increasing. Very possibly due to incorrect mask usage and constant fidgeting at your face while wearing it.

I know a lot of people that hate wearing the mask so much that they just won’t go to places were masks are required.

The stats in Ireland show that kids won’t die of Covid anyways. Waste of time making their lives miserable with masks.

Thank fcuk you are not sitting in government. We would be all screwed. Posting something like this is actually dangerous. Not only for my mental health, but imagine somebody will actually believe it

brian78

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We have proof that masks don’t work. We flattened the curve and kept it flat for a couple of months without masks. Nobody was wearing them in supermarkets or anywhere and we weren’t all catching Covid.

In fact, since more started wearing masks, the numbers have began increasing. Very possibly due to incorrect mask usage and constant fidgeting at your face while wearing it.

I know a lot of people that hate wearing the mask so much that they just won’t go to places were masks are required.

The stats in Ireland show that kids won’t die of Covid anyways. Waste of time making their lives miserable with masks.

So you mean if my son infected Covid-19 in school , and he will not infected me (I have Diabetes) or his grandma (78 years old)? It's not himself , that's all my family and people around us.

PhilOssophy

Point might have been made already but if everybody is wearing masks and hand sanitisers etc are properly installed, rooms ventilated etc I don't see how this can spread in the class room.
If there is a confirmed case, the whole school gets tested. That could surely be done easily enough? I'm not buying the "its not safe" argument any more. If students don't want to go back there should be an online option, if teachers don't want to go back they can be substituted and there is a Covid payment available to them like everybody else.

Benimar

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Point might have been made already but if everybody is wearing masks and hand sanitisers etc are properly installed, rooms ventilated etc I don't see how this can spread in the class room.
If there is a confirmed case, the whole school gets tested. That could surely be done easily enough? I'm not buying the "its not safe" argument any more. If students don't want to go back there should be an online option, if teachers don't want to go back they can be substituted and there is a Covid payment available to them like everybody else.

Minister Norma Foley 'It is not envisaged that masks will be worn'

I don't think its unreasonable for teachers to be concerned that students won't be keeping social distance, nor wearing masks. If it was me, I'd be concerned!

xhomelezz

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Point might have been made already but if everybody is wearing masks and hand sanitisers etc are properly installed, rooms ventilated etc I don't see how this can spread in the class room.
If there is a confirmed case, the whole school gets tested. That could surely be done easily enough? I'm not buying the "its not safe" argument any more. If students don't want to go back there should be an online option, if teachers don't want to go back they can be substituted and there is a Covid payment available to them like everybody else.

The problem is amount of the kids in the classroom. If you put too many of them in, none of the measures will work at the end. None of the measures is bulletproof, so you have to apply about all of them together, yet social distancing is all forgotten.

PhilOssophy

Benimar wrote: »

Minister Norma Foley 'It is not envisaged that masks will be worn'

I don't think its unreasonable for teachers to be concerned that students won't be keeping social distance, nor wearing masks. If it was me, I'd be concerned!

They should be. Fully agree. Makes no sense. Another thought, what happened in the likes of Denmark where schools are back ages? I didn't hear anything about them all closing? Surely there are learnings from what they did?

PhilOssophy

xhomelezz wrote: »

The problem is amount of the kids in the classroom. If you put too many of them in, none of the measures will work at the end. None of the measures is bulletproof, so you have to apply about all of them together, yet social distancing is all forgotten.

Then use the school halls, use the local GAA club, halve the classes, get substitute/retired teachers to help out. It can be done!

xhomelezz

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Then use the school halls, use the local GAA club, halve the classes, get substitute/retired teachers to help out. It can be done!

I still think they should open, no doubt. But put just half of the students at the same time in. That would allow schools follow safety guidelines from the start. All in is a no go imo. Unless they gonna be able to put up another school building beside the old one we have.

downthemiddle

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Then use the school halls, use the local GAA club, halve the classes, get substitute/retired teachers to help out. It can be done!

No subs to be had. As a retired teacher you would, in many cases, be in the high risk category.

mcsean2163

iamwhoiam wrote: »

One of the problems now is the lack of strong leadership . In the beginning and up till very lately we sat down at 6 and watched the News . We hung on the R rate , the figures and the calm but authoritative voice of Tony
We waited to hear what Leo and Simon had to say , we listen and we agreed . We did as told , we stayed in , we scrubbed our hand if we so much as walked around the block . We had trust in them , we were led by them and we stayed within our guidelines
Now many are not listening , grown tired of the News and the R and the figures
We are not shocked into being careful , we are not stunned with deaths and ICU figures
Therin lies the problem , if the community was careful and spread contained the schools could open more safely
Then if Covid is not in the community the schools will be far safer
We have no real , strong , insistent leadership telling us that message and ensuring we get that message
If we want the schools open the community has to be far more intolerant of any breaches of the guidelines .

I agree, the changeover has not helped. Michael Martin has not followed up well. Varadkar should have stayed on, in fact I'd love to see an election now because the new government is a mess.

khalessi

Answered in blue

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Point might have been made already but if everybody is wearing masks and hand sanitisers etc are properly installed, rooms ventilated etc I don't see how this can spread in the class room.

Agreed, if all of that was implemented that would be great, but a lot of classrooms are not ventilated properly some windows don't open properly due to H&S and that is before you mention prefabs.

If there is a confirmed case, the whole school gets tested. That could surely be done easily enough? I'm not buying the "its not safe" argument any more.

I read an article during the week in The Independent where it was called for that testing for schools and teachers should be prioritised when schools reopen to ensure quick turn and minimal time out and minimal disruption to teaching, but it has not been implemented yet. It would be a great idea.

If students don't want to go back there should be an online option, if teachers don't want to go back they can be substituted and there is a Covid payment available to them like everybody else.

This still has to be sorted out.

Smacruairi

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Then use the school halls, use the local GAA club, halve the classes, get substitute/retired teachers to help out. It can be done!

Has already been discussed 50 pages back.

You often have 6 schools all looking to use the same parish halls or gaa clubs. They are very reluctant to rent out to schools for insurance reasons, and the cost is huge. The govt won't pay for renting, it comes from school funding,which is already stretched tight.

Retired teachers are in the high risk category, not a hope they are coming back. But also if you are splitting classes, who is paying them? The govt has said it will fund one extra teacher per school.in a post primary with 24 classes that is just hilarious levels of non funding.

Also where do you send those 24 classes? What happens to the kids who voluntarily opt out. You said you wanted a remote option. Who provides it? The teacher who has already spent 9-5 in the class with the ones who showed up?

There are always simple populist solutions thrown out. Teachers have thrown out our own nuanced solutions which have been totally ignored such as reduction in class sizes and contact time, developing online centralised platforms, diff curricula etc.

The fact that the plan is "everyone back to normal" should indicate to you that the DES needdd to do more. Think this is the 5th time I've had to hand hold someone through critical thinking.

khalessi

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They should be. Fully agree. Makes no sense. Another thought, what happened in the likes of Denmark where schools are back ages? I didn't hear anything about them all closing? Surely there are learnings from what they did?

Denmark opened with sd of 2 metres, shorter school day, and a max of 10 students in a class along with a host of other measures. They also hire bulidings as you suggested elsewhere and some kids even had classes in football stadiums and graveyards.

And even at that tens of thousands of parents did not send their children back straight away as they were worried.

https://www.thelocal.com/20200528/how-denmark-got-its-children-back-to-school
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/coronavirus-how-denmark-fared-on-first-days-of-reopened-schools-1.4231385

alroley

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They should be. Fully agree. Makes no sense. Another thought, what happened in the likes of Denmark where schools are back ages? I didn't hear anything about them all closing? Surely there are learnings from what they did?

Their class sizes are much smaller than ours. They put children into pods and had class outside as much as possible. I believe they also used other facilities such as churches to ensure social distancing (the last point may have been about another country I read about, it was definitely in Europe though).

PhilOssophy

Smacruairi wrote: »

Has already been discussed 50 pages back.

You often have 6 schools all looking to use the same parish halls or gaa clubs. They are very reluctant to rent out to schools for insurance reasons, and the cost is huge. The govt won't pay for renting, it comes from school funding,which is already stretched tight.

Retired teachers are in the high risk category, not a hope they are coming back. But also if you are splitting classes, who is paying them? The govt has said it will fund one extra teacher per school.in a post primary with 24 classes that is just hilarious levels of non funding.

Also where do you send those 24 classes? What happens to the kids who voluntarily opt out. You said you wanted a remote option. Who provides it? The teacher who has already spent 9-5 in the class with the ones who showed up?

There are always simple populist solutions thrown out. Teachers have thrown out our own nuanced solutions which have been totally ignored such as reduction in class sizes and contact time, developing online centralised platforms, diff curricula etc.

The fact that the plan is "everyone back to normal" should indicate to you that the DES needdd to do more. Think this is the 5th time I've had to hand hold someone through critical thinking.

No need for the patronising teacher attitude.....

If the first point you make is insurance and renting, that would seem a very easy thing to overcome. If there is a will there is a way, hotels have meeting rooms etc which aren't being used at the moment? Its easy to point to problems if you want to.

Maybe the remote option is provided by some teachers who are afraid to go back to the classroom? A proper online portal - fully agree, but not the hour or two which many provided from Feb this year....

Loafing Oaf

khalessi wrote: »

some kids even had classes in football stadiums and graveyards.

:eek:

Well it is Hamlet's country I suppose...

Alrigghtythen

Smacruairi wrote: »

Has already been discussed 50 pages back.

You often have 6 schools all looking to use the same parish halls or gaa clubs. They are very reluctant to rent out to schools for insurance reasons, and the cost is huge. The govt won't pay for renting, it comes from school funding,which is already stretched tight.

Retired teachers are in the high risk category, not a hope they are coming back. But also if you are splitting classes, who is paying them? The govt has said it will fund one extra teacher per school.in a post primary with 24 classes that is just hilarious levels of non funding.

Also where do you send those 24 classes? What happens to the kids who voluntarily opt out. You said you wanted a remote option. Who provides it? The teacher who has already spent 9-5 in the class with the ones who showed up?

There are always simple populist solutions thrown out. Teachers have thrown out our own nuanced solutions which have been totally ignored such as reduction in class sizes and contact time, developing online centralised platforms, diff curricula etc.

The fact that the plan is "everyone back to normal" should indicate to you that the DES needdd to do more. Think this is the 5th time I've had to hand hold someone through critical thinking.

Is that a primary or a secondary school the teacher have class contact in from 9-5?

A secondary school teacher has 22 teaching contact hours a week, less if they have exam years. 22/5 is 4 and a quarter hours contact time a day

khalessi

PhilOssophy wrote: »

No need for the patronising teacher attitude.....

If the first point you make is insurance and renting, that would seem a very easy thing to overcome. If there is a will there is a way, hotels have meeting rooms etc which aren't being used at the moment? Its easy to point to problems if you want to.

Maybe the remote option is provided by some teachers who are afraid to go back to the classroom? A proper online portal - fully agree, but not the hour or two which many provided from Feb this year....

The biggest problem is the government are not willing to throw money at education. When the hospitals were at the forefront they made a big of rentin hotels as step down, it was all over papers, but nothing about extra buildings for education.

In fact the schools have been told that they have to send 3 tenders for repairs or unpgrades to be carried before geting work done. And they have to exhaust all avenues

Ms Foley said schools would be required to "exhaust all other options" before resorting to off-campus accommodation, such as parish halls.

"They have to be able to show there was a justifiable need for that and that all other options have been exhausted," she told the Dáil.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/schools-face-delays-in-reopening-as-builders-must-tender-for-work-39415082.html


Like you Phillossophy I think we should be hiring the feck out of buildings, libraries hotels, whatever split the primary classes among them and get the kids to school

wirelessdude01

Don't you just love people who come in with suggestions that have already been discussed to death.

iamwhoiam

September is often a dry month so would primary teachers be willing to teach outside ? Not every school has the facility but plenty of schools have green areas and yards . It would certainly allow for more fresh air and less time in poorly ventilated rooms
I picked a child up from summer camp a few weeks ago and they were often outside with rain coats in playing outdoor games or sitting under a tree
We had fresh dry clothes at home to change her into and none of them rusted in the drizzle !

alroley

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Is that a primary or a secondary school the teacher have class contact in from 9-5?

A secondary school teacher has 22 teaching contact hours a week, less if they have exam years. 22/5 is 4 and a quarter hours contact time a day

No.

Alrigghtythen

alroley wrote: »

No.

Yes

https://www.tui.ie/benefits-and-services/new-to-teaching.1678.html#:~:text=A%20CID%20is%20a%20permanent,16%20hours%20in%20year%203.


What are the maximum class contact hours for a teacher?
A full-time teacher has a weekly maximum class contact time of 21 hours 20 minutes if he/she has any involvement in Junior Cycle. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 22 hours applies. As a result of a TUI Directive, any teacher appointed to an Assistant Principal 1 position and who has any involvement in Junior Cycle has a maximum class contact of 17 hours and 20 minutes. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 18 hours applies.

am_zarathustra

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Point might have been made already but if everybody is wearing masks and hand sanitisers etc are properly installed, rooms ventilated etc I don't see how this can spread in the class room.
If there is a confirmed case, the whole school gets tested. That could surely be done easily enough? I'm not buying the "its not safe" argument any more. If students don't want to go back there should be an online option, if teachers don't want to go back they can be substituted and there is a Covid payment available to them like everybody else.

There are no teachers, substitute or otherwise, there will be less in October when a raft of them retire. This has been repeatedly pointed out. Retired teachers won't come back and PMEs are already subbing full time in urban areas.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Then use the school halls, use the local GAA club, halve the classes, get substitute/retired teachers to help out. It can be done!

Again, no extra teachers. There are also not enough school halls to go around.

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Is that a primary or a secondary school the teacher have class contact in from 9-5?

A secondary school teacher has 22 teaching contact hours a week, less if they have exam years. 22/5 is 4 and a quarter hours contact time a day

I haven't a clue what this is about. Exam year teachers getting less time? Literally made up. A lot of teachers teach over the time too, I haven't taught to my allocated time in many years.

iamwhoiam

@wirelssdude
( sorry quote button stalled on me )

Not everyone has time to read 810 pages of posts . Everyone should be made welcome and opinions welcomed

Alrigghtythen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

There are no teachers, substitute or otherwise, there will be less in October when a raft of them retire. This has been repeatedly pointed out. Retired teachers won't come back and PMEs are already subbing full time in urban areas.



Again, no extra teachers. There are also not enough school halls to go around.



I haven't a clue what this is about. Exam year teachers getting less time? Literally made up. A lot of teachers teach over the time too, I haven't taught to my allocated time in many years.

Made up by the tui? Lol

alroley

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Yes

https://www.tui.ie/benefits-and-services/new-to-teaching.1678.html#:~:text=A%20CID%20is%20a%20permanent,16%20hours%20in%20year%203.


What are the maximum class contact hours for a teacher?
A full-time teacher has a weekly maximum class contact time of 21 hours 20 minutes if he/she has any involvement in Junior Cycle. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 22 hours applies. As a result of a TUI Directive, any teacher appointed to an Assistant Principal 1 position and who has any involvement in Junior Cycle has a maximum class contact of 17 hours and 20 minutes. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 18 hours applies.

Again, no.

That means any 1st, 2nd or 3rd year classes. Nothing to do with exams. You'd have 21 hrs 20 mins if you had one first year class and the rest of your timetable was TY.

am_zarathustra

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Yes

https://www.tui.ie/benefits-and-services/new-to-teaching.1678.html#:~:text=A%20CID%20is%20a%20permanent,16%20hours%20in%20year%203.


What are the maximum class contact hours for a teacher?
A full-time teacher has a weekly maximum class contact time of 21 hours 20 minutes if he/she has any involvement in Junior Cycle. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 22 hours applies. As a result of a TUI Directive, any teacher appointed to an Assistant Principal 1 position and who has any involvement in Junior Cycle has a maximum class contact of 17 hours and 20 minutes. If he/she has no involvement in Junior Cycle, a maximum class contact time of 18 hours applies.

Again you are just showing you haven't a clue. This is for the new Junior Cycle reform and it is to account for the time spent in SLARS and subject meetings etc. There is more to it than that but you can look it up if your that interested.

It is sweet f all to do with if you are teaching a class sitting a state exam.

Greensoup

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Again you are just showing you haven't a clue. This is for the new Junior Cycle reform and it is to account for the time spent in SLARS and subject meetings etc. There is more to it than that but you can look it up if your that interested.

It is sweet f all to do with if you are teaching a class sitting a state exam.

I have 2 leaving cert classes and 2 3rd year classes as part of my timetable....I have 32 forty minute class periods per week which is 21.3 teaching hours. The Assisstant Principal 1 are people like year heads...some of their 22 hours is set aside for year head admin such as absent notes etc so they have a few hours less class teaching for this.

alroley

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Made up by the tui? Lol

Why are you trying to correct people about their own jobs?

What you posted from the TUI has nothing to do with what you said about teachers with exam years having less hours.