Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

wirelessdude01

rainbowtrout wrote: »

As the construction teacher in my school said to me the other day 'Can't post planks of wood and saws on Microsoft Teams'.

Comment of the year right there

Treppen

That Ciara Kelly is some idiot for a doctor.

' Get your child to apply for UCAS to force getting a predicted grade, so it will show the department it can be done' my Paraphrasing there.

But really, what a dufus. No doubt people telling here this will be branded as internet bullies and she'll have a bleeding heart story to vindicate her inane drivel.

I reckon the journalists at the Indo are peeved at not getting the same access to "senior sources" which the Irish Times are enjoying at the moment.

Dickie10

Ciara Kelly is very hard on the ears. Why is a qualified doctor not practicing id like to know. She must not get enough attention being stuck in a surgery.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can't say I agree with you. Whether you like it or not you probably won't be back in your classroom before the end of this school year. We are already being geared up by the government not to expect any radical unwinding of restrictions on the 5th. In a normal year you wouldn't see your classes after you finish in May to do any revision, so realistically you should be planning to get your revision done by the normal end of the school year.

I won't be treating July as an extra two weeks teaching. I will be treating it as time to answer questions and go over niggly problems students have and see how it evolves. When the time comes I will ask them in advance if there is anything in particular they would like to focus on/require help with, but I am planning revision as I normally would, to finish with the end of the school year. It is the only certainty there is at the moment.

The media have a huge amount to answer for in the last couple of weeks baying for information on a situation that continues to evolve on a daily basis. Knowing the finer detail of what is going to happen after July 29th is largely irrelevant even with regard project work. I do think the project element of all remaining subjects should be scrapped in the interests of fairness but there is also very little that any teacher with a practical element can do at the moment, so the focus should lie on the written, regardless of whether the practical goes ahead or not. As the construction teacher in my school said to me the other day 'Can't post planks of wood and saws on Microsoft Teams'.

Focus on what you can do at the moment and forget about the stuff that's out of your control.

Yeah I am no doubt overthinking it. Which was probably what Bren2001 was getting at as well.
That is just my personality I guess. I like certainty and being able to plan out work/schemes etc in good time. This has made the last month or so particularly difficult for me tbh. I know there are many students who feel the same too now no doubt.

I still maintain the communication from the Minister to school personnel has been appalling. And the original lack of consultation. It affects our professional and personal lives but we are ignored. Teachers are people with families of their own as well.......

Dickie10

Bobtheman wrote: »

The Irish media keep whipping up ' will anybody think of the children " while their parents wonder how they will put bread on the table and the death toll rising.
Plus I work in a school where many kids don't give a flying fxxx despite the entire system throwing mountains of cash at them.

I think after all this we need to have a look at some schools like this or students within schools.Im in a very academic school but I have seen this in previous schools, huge money put into these students when they really should have an exit door once they hit 16, still of the opinion community schools were a disaster, we should have kept techs and vocational schools. get more kids into apprenticeship after the junior cert if they are that way inclined. Madness that some of these students pull so much time and energy from teachers and drain some classes that need that energy into students who are interested but just need to get from a D to a C.

brighterspark

I am not usually a fan of Ciara Kelly but in this instance I find it very refreshing to hear a voice and opinion that I feel reflects the majority of LC parents and which has not been heard or indeed consulted with.
I am the parent of a Leaving Cert student but also a LC teacher. The decision to pursue the delayed exam is one that is too costly on many fronts and not just the obvious one of the well-being of LC students.
The impact on schools next year will be very disruptive – I also have a fifth year student who has already missed 2 months and possibly September also (due to ongoing exams and teachers correcting papers). Potentially six months of teaching over the 6 year groups is a big loss. Our young people will be craving some normality and our schools will not be in a position to provide it.

The most straight forward solution is the option of predicted grades and it is one that would have the majority support of students and parents now that the June option is gone.

I have to ask the question – Who are the people insisting on this exam and why?

1. Third level Colleges – they have already indicated that they will accept Northern Ireland students predicated grades
2. Employers – very unlikely!
3. Students and their parents that want the exams to happen – this option could with fewer numbers be more easily provided for.
4. Teachers who would be reluctant to provide the predicted results for a variety of good reasons – the use of a total points predicted score would give teachers the needed anonymity especially in small communities.
5. The Grinds industry – this sector faces into a bumper summer even if it has to be online.
6. The Department of Education and the Minister – I have no clear answer to this but plenty of suspicions!

Helplines and throwing out a few laptops will not solve the inequities that now exist. Disadvantaged students will be completely lost come August. Rural and the less wealthy students will not be receiving grinds etc in the summer months as will students from wealthy families. Special needs students will not be receiving the supports they need in the build up to the exam. I think most teachers and principals feel that the 2 weeks class time just before exams is unworkable, of little value and potentially dangerous and as a parent I will not be sending my child into school.

The other major advantage of predicted grades is that it will be based on performance up to the closure of all schools therefore judging all students on the same basis. In languages for example, teachers could give recognition of students’ oral abilities and this would also be the case for students in subjects with a practical component which will not be the case in all subjects now.

A further consideration and a voice that we have heard little from is the impact on third level courses. I also have a child in 3rd level – many courses are modular and modules can be taken in either First or second years – how will these courses/choices be impacted?
This delay has so many knock on effects that it is time to call a halt and reassess for the good of everyone!

Rodin

Should have offered predicted grades.

If someone wasn't happy with the prediction they can sit the exam. Should they do worse than predicted, the exam grade stands.

The reduction in candidates sitting exams immediately makes it easier to hold them.

Greensoup

There were 4 weeks left to complete geography projects when we broke up on March 12th. Closing date was then pushed back to May 15th so we’d have the 4 weeks after Easter holidays to complete. Now plan is to get them finished in the 2 weeks in July when they might also have other project work and the students that do turn up want to work on short questions, map work etc. Making it up as they go along.

deiseindublin

ethical wrote: »

.....and Ciara Kelly wondering could the class of 2020 boycott the LC!

She's hard work.

twomonkeys

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can't say I agree with you. Whether you like it or not you probably won't be back in your classroom before the end of this school year. We are already being geared up by the government not to expect any radical unwinding of restrictions on the 5th. In a normal year you wouldn't see your classes after you finish in May to do any revision, so realistically you should be planning to get your revision done by the normal end of the school year.

I won't be treating July as an extra two weeks teaching. I will be treating it as time to answer questions and go over niggly problems students have and see how it evolves. When the time comes I will ask them in advance if there is anything in particular they would like to focus on/require help with, but I am planning revision as I normally would, to finish with the end of the school year. It is the only certainty there is at the moment.

The media have a huge amount to answer for in the last couple of weeks baying for information on a situation that continues to evolve on a daily basis. Knowing the finer detail of what is going to happen after July 29th is largely irrelevant even with regard project work. I do think the project element of all remaining subjects should be scrapped in the interests of fairness but there is also very little that any teacher with a practical element can do at the moment, so the focus should lie on the written, regardless of whether the practical goes ahead or not. As the construction teacher in my school said to me the other day 'Can't post planks of wood and saws on Microsoft Teams'.

Focus on what you can do at the moment and forget about the stuff that's out of your control.

From a parents perspective THIS is how I hope all of my sons teachers are approaching the next few months. Do what you can, I dont expect anyone to actually teach in July, but I think its important just to have a catch up with the students, just to calm and reassure them mentally and answer any questions they have.

Millionaire only not

brighterspark wrote: »

I am not usually a fan of Ciara Kelly but in this instance I find it very refreshing to hear a voice and opinion that I feel reflects the majority of LC parents and which has not been heard or indeed consulted with.
I am the parent of a Leaving Cert student but also a LC teacher. The decision to pursue the delayed exam is one that is too costly on many fronts and not just the obvious one of the well-being of LC students.
The impact on schools next year will be very disruptive – I also have a fifth year student who has already missed 2 months and possibly September also (due to ongoing exams and teachers correcting papers). Potentially six months of teaching over the 6 year groups is a big loss. Our young people will be craving some normality and our schools will not be in a position to provide it.

The most straight forward solution is the option of predicted grades and it is one that would have the majority support of students and parents now that the June option is gone.

I have to ask the question – Who are the people insisting on this exam and why?

1. Third level Colleges – they have already indicated that they will accept Northern Ireland students predicated grades
2. Employers – very unlikely!
3. Students and their parents that want the exams to happen – this option could with fewer numbers be more easily provided for.
4. Teachers who would be reluctant to provide the predicted results for a variety of good reasons – the use of a total points predicted score would give teachers the needed anonymity especially in small communities.
5. The Grinds industry – this sector faces into a bumper summer even if it has to be online.
6. The Department of Education and the Minister – I have no clear answer to this but plenty of suspicions!

Helplines and throwing out a few laptops will not solve the inequities that now exist. Disadvantaged students will be completely lost come August. Rural and the less wealthy students will not be receiving grinds etc in the summer months as will students from wealthy families. Special needs students will not be receiving the supports they need in the build up to the exam. I think most teachers and principals feel that the 2 weeks class time just before exams is unworkable, of little value and potentially dangerous and as a parent I will not be sending my child into school.

The other major advantage of predicted grades is that it will be based on performance up to the closure of all schools therefore judging all students on the same basis. In languages for example, teachers could give recognition of students’ oral abilities and this would also be the case for students in subjects with a practical component which will not be the case in all subjects now.

A further consideration and a voice that we have heard little from is the impact on third level courses. I also have a child in 3rd level – many courses are modular and modules can be taken in either First or second years – how will these courses/choices be impacted?
This delay has so many knock on effects that it is time to call a halt and reassess for the good of everyone!

On point 5 , the social media is rotten with pushing students to buy this grind that grind online . Just disgraceful

Bobtheman

I wish I could kill this thread. There will be no predicted grades unless we are still in same position we are today.
It's all voluntary post June and yet teachers will quote their Principals as Gospel.
The media and perhaps some teachers are hyping this

Millionaire only not

Treppen wrote: »

That Ciara Kelly is some idiot for a doctor.

' Get your child to apply for UCAS to force getting a predicted grade, so it will show the department it can be done' my Paraphrasing there.

But really, what a dufus. No doubt people telling here this will be branded as internet bullies and she'll have a bleeding heart story to vindicate her inane drivel.

I reckon the journalists at the Indo are peeved at not getting the same access to "senior sources" which the Irish Times are enjoying at the moment.

At least she has made a lot more sence than our minister for education.

Millionaire only not

Bobtheman wrote: »

I wish I could kill this thread. There will be no predicted grades unless we are still in same position we are today.
It's all voluntary post June and yet teachers will quote their Principals as Gospel.
The media and perhaps some teachers are hyping this

Are u a betting man I’ll have few pound with u they’ll be a change in next 2 weeks for leaving cert same as the junior cert was changed .

Inspector Coptoor

Millionaire only not wrote: »

At least she has made a lot more sence than our minister for education.

She makes no sense on Educational matters.

This is the same”doctor” who claimed to be immune to the virus even though having the virus once doesn’t confer immunity.

She’s a mouthpiece and shouldn’t be asked her opinion on issues to do with education.

Would be like Dr Tony Holohan asking me how to handle the pandemic going forward.

km79

https://www.oceanfm.ie/2020/04/24/local-principal-expresses-frustration-over-leaving-cert/?fbclid=IwAR2KWZR0acwQOKrZAi-wplFSxgUix9egMglT8pWMxxqVOVqHCURCAlbx1DA

Summerhill principal calling for at least a draft plan ............so proper informed decisions can be made by school

Nice to hear him speak of the personal struggles of teachers at the end too

Icsics

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-union-distances-itself-from-branch-seeking-cancellation-of-leaving-cert-1.4238464
Some interesting points in this

km79

Icsics wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-union-distances-itself-from-branch-seeking-cancellation-of-leaving-cert-1.4238464
Some interesting points in this

Union distances itself from members legitimate concerns about their health and safety and that of their students ........

Glad to see a mention of Croke Park hours
If nothing else good comes out of all this other than showing up the absurdity of staff being locked in a room with each other for 2/3 hours to make up these hours then ill be happy
The teaching profession has not collapsed without them over the past month

In fact they are still being done . But in a different way
A different way that most teachers were not prepared for because of the nonsensical use of them for the last decade
Let’s hope lessons are learned and common sense applied from now on

Treppen

Icsics wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-union-distances-itself-from-branch-seeking-cancellation-of-leaving-cert-1.4238464
Some interesting points in this

"ventilation of exam halls, physical distancing and questions such as whether students will need to wear face masks."

What do they not get. This is a fluid situation and July is a long long time away. Asking for more detailed plans now is infuriating me, there are many ways this can play out in the coming weeks, so giving detailed plans and 'certainty' on all these possible outcomes is like explaining algebra to a frog.

There is a prevailing belief that society will have to return to 'normal' functioning in a drip feed fashion i.e. we can't simply be in the same lockdown until the pandemic has disappeared. Judging that will be a very tough call and it won't come down to scientists, it'll be a political decision for the 'greater good' as you can't put a nation on ice indefinitely. No scientist will ever deem it 100% safe to return.

LC students looking for 'certainty' is moot. Just finish out the course and take a break. If the July target isn't suitable then it's plan B,C,D,E,F. Maybe it will be predicted grades, maybe reduce the subject load to best 5 for 525 points max!

Rosita

Treppen wrote: »

"ventilation of exam halls, physical distancing and questions such as whether students will need to wear face masks."

What do they not get. This is a fluid situation and July is a long long time away. Asking for more detailed plans now is infuriating me, there are many ways this can play out in the coming weeks, so giving detailed plans and 'certainty' on all these possible outcomes is like explaining algebra to a frog.

There is a prevailing belief that society will have to return to 'normal' functioning in a drip feed fashion i.e. we can't simply be in the same lockdown until the pandemic has disappeared. Judging that will be a very tough call and it won't come down to scientists, it'll be a political decision for the 'greater good' as you can't put a nation on ice indefinitely. No scientist will ever deem it 100% safe to return.

LC students looking for 'certainty' is moot. Just finish out the course and take a break. If the July target isn't suitable then it's plan B,C,D,E,F. Maybe it will be predicted grades, maybe reduce the subject load to best 5 for 525 points max!

Not sure I get your point about being infuriated by people asking for more detailed plans. Detailed plans would demonstrate that the Dept of Ed is genuinely engaging with the LC and the myriad of questions around its staging. Everyone accepts that we are in a fluid situation and that the end of July brings no guarantees. But thrre must be some attempt to provide some semblance of a credible plan. Failure to do so in the case of the JC has made the Dept of Ed look silly and incompetent. They are starting to run the same risk with the LC. We are not looking for any guarantee about the behaviour of the virus, just an assurance that there is an actual plan to be implemented if all goes well. They also have a credibility deficit to make up after the JC debacle.

deiseindublin

They're trying to make a plan, they're in negotiations, but they keep getting sidetracked by different factions looking for updates.

I'm not a huge fan but think JMcH can't win. SEC/JMcH suggested JC in September, lots of negative feedback around which was obviously taken on board, and now they're planning to officially change tack, great you would think but now people are complaining that they're incompetent and can't make up their minds.

Just let them make a plan, let them talk to the principals, and SEC and DES and Unions, and student groups and parents groups and CAO and colleges etc. They will come back to us when they have a more bullet proof plan than "2 weeks of stuff and 1 exam a day afterwards".

Rodin

Millionaire only not wrote: »

On point 5 , the social media is rotten with pushing students to buy this grind that grind online . Just disgraceful

Grinds shouldn't be necessary.
Students should just be taught properly in the first place.

Were no grinds in my day.

khalessi

Rodin wrote: »

Grinds shouldn't be necessary.
Students should just be taught properly in the first place.

Were no grinds in my day.

How old are you? There were grinds in the 70s 80s and 90s just not but the grind school kind but individuals.

randylonghorn

Rodin wrote: »

Grinds shouldn't be necessary.
Students should just be taught properly in the first place.

Were no grinds in my day.

Grinds are usually more about parents with money trying to buy an advantage for their youngsters in the points race.

And that sentence in itself kinda underlines a lot of what's wrong with how our society views education.



(I say usually because, in fairness, there are students who struggle with a particular subject and are just looking for a bit of extra help 1-1. That always happened, just it relied on older siblings / Mary-next-door's aunt or whoever ... And, generally, good will more often than actual cash.)

Dickie10

i got grinds for maths because our teacher let us play on the computers all class every class in 5th year! i wasnt very driven tbh.

Rodin

khalessi wrote: »

How old are you? There were grinds in the 70s 80s and 90s just not but the grind school kind but individuals.

No grinds as in no extra tuition was needed.
The teaching was sufficient.

Seems most of the country need extra tuition these days.

twomonkeys

Rodin wrote: »

Grinds shouldn't be necessary.
Students should just be taught properly in the first place.

Were no grinds in my day.

I did my LC in 1989 and I had one to one maths grinds back then and my classmate went to Leeson street for week long revision courses, that was over 30 years ago.

ethical

Icsics wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-union-distances-itself-from-branch-seeking-cancellation-of-leaving-cert-1.4238464
Some interesting points in this

So one Union, TUI, is mentioned here as ignoring its members...........no mention of ASTI and how Ms. McDonald has ignored her members concerns constantly since the story of LC first broke,really surprised the Dublin Media havent cottoned on to this before now!

Treppen

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure I get your point about being infuriated by people asking for more detailed plans. Detailed plans would demonstrate that the Dept of Ed is genuinely engaging with the LC and the myriad of questions around its staging. Everyone accepts that we are in a fluid situation and that the end of July brings no guarantees. But thrre must be some attempt to provide some semblance of a credible plan. Failure to do so in the case of the JC has made the Dept of Ed look silly and incompetent. They are starting to run the same risk with the LC. We are not looking for any guarantee about the behaviour of the virus, just an assurance that there is an actual plan to be implemented if all goes well. They also have a credibility deficit to make up after the JC debacle.

The credible plan has been provided. Exams are at end of July. 2 weeks classes before that. The actual running of it will depend on the statistics / trends. We need more time to see a trend. As the trend changes the plan will change. Giving out a plan now is pointless , so set a target and be prepared.
The only thing students need to do now is be prepared to sit the exams at the end of July/Start of August.

It's like with my JC students. I initially warned them to keep engaged and assume the exams will be in June. Number one thing is to finish out the course and exam papers. Even when September was mentioned I warned them to keep going and finish out their work. Now the ones who took the pedal off the gas have been caught out. LC students need to stop writing to newspapers and get back to writing essays. They're just cannon fodder for the likes of Dr. Ciara Kelly and other bleeding hearts.

rainbowtrout

Rodin wrote: »

No grinds as in no extra tuition was needed.
The teaching was sufficient.

Seems most of the country need extra tuition these days.

A lot of students don't need to go to grinds, they just go anyway. Plenty of students don't bother to do the work in class but are willing to listening and work when their parents are paying through the nose for it. Have dealt with plenty of them over the years.

A lot of parents effectively transferred the money they spent on third level education fees to pay for grinds to give their son/daughter that extra advantage. That's what a lot of grinds are about.

Even the HPAT, which was brought in to level the playing field for entry to medicine was supposed to be an assessment that students couldn't be prepared for and avoided rote learning. There are HPAT prep courses available now and that's quite a lucrative stream of income for those offering it.

Grinds used to be about getting a bit of help when a student was finding difficulties. Now a lot of it is about 'maximising performance'.