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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]
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Can I ask something .
Are you a secondary teacher ?
I suspect you may not be based on what you have said as you seek to be unaware of the issues it’s creating day in /day out
In relation to the JC . I care
Why ? Because I had an 8 week revision plan done prior to easter for them
I left this in place until we returned after Easter
I left it in place until midweek
I have now changed it
But I may have to change it again depending on where Minister McHugh makes up his mind and communicates with schools properly . One week gone and all we have gotten is a Friday evening message saying they are “working on it” . 5 school weeks left . Take your time ........
That’s one example of how it is affecting students and teachers
L certs
Same thing. I had a revision plan done .
There are two particularly important sections that have to be revised .
They are better to be revised in class time but I can’t take the chance that we will have any class time despite our principal saying he thinks we will be in before End of May.
If we do end up being back I will have a choice
Cover topics which could have been covered online easier
Or
Go back those two topics which will mean other topics will not get revised
So how could he have helped more you might say ?
By giving us a clear idea of how he thinks the return in July is going to work . Same for exams. Because as it stands there is still a lot doubt about either as there are so many issues that many of us can’t see it will work .
And cancelling practicals So that all subjects with a practical elements are treated the same reducing student inequality . This would remove some of the issues in July and lessen stress
It is 100% going to happen so just do it !
Hope that makes sense as it’s a bit of a ramble . I am not getting at you I am genuinely just wondering if you are teaching in a secondary school as you don’t seem to share the same frustrations as lot of us
No, I'm not a secondary school teacher. I'm a lecturer. While I've never experienced the day to day challenges of secondary teaching, I have some understanding of the complications this has posed. My own exams, assessments, tutorials, lectures and practicals have had to be redesigned to be delivered entirely online. Aside from having a work laptop, I've no training in how to achieve this nor have additional resources been made available to me. I don't have a HDip or other education qualifications. There is also huge uncertainty over the start date of first years meaning we may have to restructure our entire course (this could trickle into 2nd and 3rd year for us as we have external accreditation). We've students on work placements so their learning outcomes must be achieved somehow. We've issues around international students both current and future.
While I give huge credit to our senior management, a lot of the information has been very last minute, vague, and prone to change. Yet, I wouldn't for a second criticize them. I accept their humans, I accept things are volatile, and while I would love a detailed plan for ourselves, it is just not possible. When the situation clears, I'll knuckle down with my colleagues and try to solve each problem as we face it. That is the overwhelming view in my school and faculty. For some reason, there seems to be a consensus here and online for an immediate plan to be released (that's not to say all teachers have this view).
So take the JC, it's in September. You have a 8 week revision plan. Why wouldnt you just implement it? Worst case scenario, the exams go ahead and you've prepared the students as best as possible. Best case scenario, the exams are cancelled and the students are no worse off at all. I just don't see the complications with this class group as you've already developed the plan. Implementing it doesn't spend extra resources i.e. time. This is what I mean by "who cares".
In relation to the LC, JMcH cannot inform you how returning in July is going to work. We don't know what the restrictions are going to be next week, how in the world is he supposed to tell you how things are going to work in 2 months time? It is clear the prudent thing to do is to assume there will be no face to face time and prepare the students on that assumption. If you do get classtime with them, treat it as a bonus. Imagine he told teachers they would have face time with students only for the virus to mutate and that to be cancelled. There would be uproar he released a half-baked plan.
The most clarity he can provide is the start date and a timetable (which is coming in June). For now, he needs to work out the exact details of how it is going to play out and develop different plans depending on how COVID-19 develops.
This is what I mean by JMcH being in a no-win situation. I think every point you've made is perfectly fair and clearly it is a frustrating work environment. I don't envy teachers in the slightest (well, I envy the holidays). I couldn't imagine being a LC student in the current circumstances. But these are exceptional circumstance, it is a novel problem we are facing, our previous principles governing how things work do not apply. Its new, therefore new solutions must be found. This requires time, creativity and flexibility.
Note: I agree, a decision should be made on the practicals. I didn't agree with 100% being given for the orals etc. but the students and teachers should be provided with some clarity on that now. The decision for 100% seemed rushed and flawed. It is the perfect demonstration of reasoning that JMcH should be given time and space to form a robust deliverable plan.0 -
No, I'm not a secondary school teacher. I'm a lecturer. While I've never experienced the day to day challenges of secondary teaching, I have some understanding of the complications this has posed. My own exams, assessments, tutorials, lectures and practicals have had to be redesigned to be delivered entirely online. Aside from having a work laptop, I've no training in how to achieve this nor have additional resources been made available to me. I don't have a HDip or other education qualifications. There is also huge uncertainty over the start date of first years meaning we may have to restructure our entire course (this could trickle into 2nd and 3rd year for us as we have external accreditation). We've students on work placements so their learning outcomes must be achieved somehow. We've issues around international students both current and future.
While I give huge credit to our senior management, a lot of the information has been very last minute, vague, and prone to change. Yet, I wouldn't for a second criticize them. I accept their humans, I accept things are volatile, and while I would love a detailed plan for ourselves, it is just not possible. When the situation clears, I'll knuckle down with my colleagues and try to solve each problem as we face it. That is the overwhelming view in my school and faculty. For some reason, there seems to be a consensus here and online for an immediate plan to be released (that's not to say all teachers have this view).
So take the JC, it's in September. You have a 8 week revision plan. Why wouldnt you just implement it? Worst case scenario, the exams go ahead and you've prepared the students as best as possible. Best case scenario, the exams are cancelled and the students are no worse off at all. I just don't see the complications with this class group as you've already developed the plan. Implementing it doesn't spend extra resources i.e. time. This is what I mean by "who cares".
In relation to the LC, JMcH cannot inform you how returning in July is going to work. We don't know what the restrictions are going to be next week, how in the world is he supposed to tell you how things are going to work in 2 months time? It is clear the prudent thing to do is to assume there will be no face to face time and prepare the students on that assumption. If you do get classtime with them, treat it as a bonus. Imagine he told teachers they would have face time with students only for the virus to mutate and that to be cancelled. There would be uproar he released a half-baked plan.
The most clarity he can provide is the start date and a timetable (which is coming in June). For now, he needs to work out the exact details of how it is going to play out and develop different plans depending on how COVID-19 develops.
This is what I mean by JMcH being in a no-win situation. I think every point you've made is perfectly fair and clearly it is a frustrating work environment. I don't envy teachers in the slightest (well, I envy the holidays). I couldn't imagine being a LC student in the current circumstances. But these are exceptional circumstance, it is a novel problem we are facing, our previous principles governing how things work do not apply. Its new, therefore new solutions must be found. This requires time, creativity and flexibility.
Note: I agree, a decision should be made on the practicals. I didn't agree with 100% being given for the orals etc. but the students and teachers should be provided with some clarity on that now. The decision for 100% seemed rushed and flawed. It is the perfect demonstration of reasoning that JMcH should be given time and space to form a robust deliverable plan.
Excellent post - I really don't know what people are expecting from Joe McHugh? Regardless of what he does it's going to be seen as being wrong.
If he was decisive and wanted to bring "certainty" the only option would have been to say cancel the LC and predictive grades for everyone (maybe predictive for JCs too?) and there would have been uproar from teachers and, I imagine, a lot of parents and students too.
The current situation really is as certain as can be - if you're a teacher or a student you aim for a 29th July start date. People were going crazy about not knowing an exact timeline etc. and that July/August was too vague..well now you have it.
If this changes it's not going to be the fault of Joe McHugh, it'll be no ones fault, it'll be based on the public health advice at the time and this can't be perfectly predicted.
Everything is a mess currently and the some of the people I most feel sorry for are those in LC. But slating the department and saying that's it's unclear etc. really isn't helping anything.. it's just not possible for it to be clear at the current time!0 -
No, I'm not a secondary school teacher. I'm a lecturer. While I've never experienced the day to day challenges of secondary teaching, I have some understanding of the complications this has posed. My own exams, assessments, tutorials, lectures and practicals have had to be redesigned to be delivered entirely online. Aside from having a work laptop, I've no training in how to achieve this nor have additional resources been made available to me. I don't have a HDip or other education qualifications. There is also huge uncertainty over the start date of first years meaning we may have to restructure our entire course (this could trickle into 2nd and 3rd year for us as we have external accreditation). We've students on work placements so their learning outcomes must be achieved somehow. We've issues around international students both current and future.
While I give huge credit to our senior management, a lot of the information has been very last minute, vague, and prone to change. Yet, I wouldn't for a second criticize them. I accept their humans, I accept things are volatile, and while I would love a detailed plan for ourselves, it is just not possible. When the situation clears, I'll knuckle down with my colleagues and try to solve each problem as we face it. That is the overwhelming view in my school and faculty. For some reason, there seems to be a consensus here and online for an immediate plan to be released (that's not to say all teachers have this view).
So take the JC, it's in September. You have a 8 week revision plan. Why wouldnt you just implement it? Worst case scenario, the exams go ahead and you've prepared the students as best as possible. Best case scenario, the exams are cancelled and the students are no worse off at all. I just don't see the complications with this class group as you've already developed the plan. Implementing it doesn't spend extra resources i.e. time. This is what I mean by "who cares".
In relation to the LC, JMcH cannot inform you how returning in July is going to work. We don't know what the restrictions are going to be next week, how in the world is he supposed to tell you how things are going to work in 2 months time? It is clear the prudent thing to do is to assume there will be no face to face time and prepare the students on that assumption. If you do get classtime with them, treat it as a bonus. Imagine he told teachers they would have face time with students only for the virus to mutate and that to be cancelled. There would be uproar he released a half-baked plan.
The most clarity he can provide is the start date and a timetable (which is coming in June). For now, he needs to work out the exact details of how it is going to play out and develop different plans depending on how COVID-19 develops.
This is what I mean by JMcH being in a no-win situation. I think every point you've made is perfectly fair and clearly it is a frustrating work environment. I don't envy teachers in the slightest (well, I envy the holidays). I couldn't imagine being a LC student in the current circumstances. But these are exceptional circumstance, it is a novel problem we are facing, our previous principles governing how things work do not apply. Its new, therefore new solutions must be found. This requires time, creativity and flexibility.
Note: I agree, a decision should be made on the practicals. I didn't agree with 100% being given for the orals etc. but the students and teachers should be provided with some clarity on that now. The decision for 100% seemed rushed and flawed. It is the perfect demonstration of reasoning that JMcH should be given time and space to form a robust deliverable plan.
Thanks for the reply. Interesting to see how things are progressing in 3rd level as my oldest lad is in 1st Year. H
Just on the bolded bits.
Because our school now has decided to give JC summer exams but this is SUBJECT TO CHANGE pending Mr McHugh's meetings this week.
So i have a new revision plan in place. Did it over the weekend( it is a 7 day day week now there are no weekends). I have just sent that to students . Have been instructed to tell them it is also subject to change.
We now have 24 school days at most left with these students. At least 5 of those will be for exams. Whatever about the LC which is still a bit away it is unacceptable that we are a week back after Easter and all we have gotten from the Minister is mixed messages through the media. I am sorry it is not good enough.
When you some multiple Principals coming out over the weekend literally crying out for communication/help you can not say he is doing his job . Communication has been appalling.0 -
I think after all this we need to have a look at some schools like this or students within schools.Im in a very academic school but I have seen this in previous schools, huge money put into these students when they really should have an exit door once they hit 16, still of the opinion community schools were a disaster, we should have kept techs and vocational schools. get more kids into apprenticeship after the junior cert if they are that way inclined. Madness that some of these students pull so much time and energy from teachers and drain some classes that need that energy into students who are interested but just need to get from a D to a C.
Teachers are expendable-classroom fodder. For the first time in my career 25 years-I have excluded kids from class until Mgt sort out very serious health and safety concerns. I made it very clear I was willing to go the distance in terms of a grievance etc. It worked0 -
I'm very surprised at schools giving JC exams in May. We haven't a clue what will happen May 5th let alone the end of May? Plus how do you keep kids from blatantly cheating?
Some schools sending the wrong message to kids-the World revolves around you-we don't want you to be stressed for 3 months etc etc
So out they go into the World where **** happens and the World owes you nothing.
Then we wonder why so many suffer anxiety in adulthood?
I wonder how much consultation went on with their staff over these decisions?0 -
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Update from NUIG
Start dates:
First Year undergraduate students: The postponed Leaving Cert exams will necessitate a later starting date for our First Year students. Following the Department of Education and Skills’ announcement, we now know that the Leaving Cert will commence on July 29, so we can anticipate that Academic Year 2020/21 will begin for First Year students in November. This will require a quick turnaround from results to registration and orientation. We want to reassure our incoming students that we will support you through the transition into university at this very exciting milestone in your lives and that our top priority is to ensure that you receive the same warm NUI Galway welcome, high quality education and supportive student experience as always. Despite the delayed start to the academic year for First Year undergraduate students, our goal is to structure the teaching and assessment so that you will be able to slot back into the normal academic year structure for the start of your Second Year of study.
All other taught students: In order to minimise disruption to our academic cycle, we are keen to recommence teaching for all students (other than First Year undergraduates) in September. Because of the great uncertainty around COVID-19 restrictions, travel disruption and social distancing requirements, and to allow for the preparation of online and blended learning, we are proposing to push back the start date to 28 September as a once-off measure this year. This will also impact on term and assessment dates for 2020/21, with Semester 1 examinations likely to take place in January. We will continue to consult in this regard with staff and student forums and share these dates once they become clearer. For the moment, we want to let students and staff know of the date for the start of Semester 1 teaching as soon as possible to allow for planning in that regard.
What impacts on teaching can we anticipate?
We don’t yet know what restrictions and limitations will be in place because of COVID-19 as we enter the new academic year. However, it is likely that some ongoing social distancing restrictions will remain in place beyond September. This may necessitate changes to the way we teach groups of students in lecture theatres, laboratories, clinics and theatres, particularly on programmes with large class sizes. There may also be changes to how we give access to learning resources.
It is likely that when we recommence in September there will be a blend of face-to-face on-campus teaching together with online teaching. In this scenario, online teaching would be temporarily provided in parallel to on-campus teaching in Semester 1 of Academic Year 2020/21 until all students are able to arrive in person. These provisions are important to allow flexibility for international students who may have difficulty reaching Galway due to travel restrictions or for those students and staff who feel vulnerable attending campus due to their own health conditions.
This is particularly relevant for students travelling to us from overseas. In addition to offering online access to your classes, we will support you through the processes you need to follow to arrive safely in Galway.0 -
I'm very surprised at schools giving JC exams in May. We haven't a clue what will happen May 5th let alone the end of May? Plus how do you keep kids from blatantly cheating?
Some schools sending the wrong message to kids-the World revolves around you-we don't want you to be stressed for 3 months etc etc
So out they go into the World where **** happens and the World owes you nothing.
Then we wonder why so many suffer anxiety in adulthood?
I wonder how much consultation went on with their staff over these decisions?
I have a son in JC and one in LC. As a parent I dont want JC exams in Sept, no more than teachers do. Its totally unreasonable to expect 15year olds to do exams in Sept when they havent set foot in a classroom in 6months. I am not expecting a full JC exam in May either. BUT I would like some sort of end of year exams, or even assignments for 3rd year students that they can be graded on, and I think that decision should be made sooner rather than later.
With regard to the LC, I want the exams should go ahead in July. My son is a good student and would do well with predicted grades but I would not want to put that pressure on teachers when the system is not set up for it.
There are a lot of “what-if’s”. No one can know what state we will be in by June/July but we need to work towards some sort of plan. Teachers- I’m not expecting miracles here, all I ask is that you do your best with a bad situation, same as I ask off my sons. Nor am I expecting you to be on call 24/7 for my son, throughout the summer. As parents we are trying to keep students motivated and positive in a very stressful time, but I am also trying to see it from a teachers perspective too (this thread helps with that).
Thank you to you all for what you have been doing so far for students.0 -
I'm very surprised at schools giving JC exams in May. We haven't a clue what will happen May 5th let alone the end of May? Plus how do you keep kids from blatantly cheating?
Some schools sending the wrong message to kids-the World revolves around you-we don't want you to be stressed for 3 months etc etc
So out they go into the World where **** happens and the World owes you nothing.
Then we wonder why so many suffer anxiety in adulthood?
I wonder how much consultation went on with their staff over these decisions?
Maybe to mitigate cheating, you could tell students that you are varying the exams you give to the class slightly so they'd get caught that way.
Also, essay / project style questions will show up knowledge a bit more than short answers or multiple choice. It's harder to copy essays too. If they want to alter slightly to the nth degree then so be it, more hassle than its worth.
A colleague recommended using 20% of their overall grade from mocks and 10% from Christmas.0 -
Thanks for the reply. Interesting to see how things are progressing in 3rd level as my oldest lad is in 1st Year. H
Just on the bolded bits.
Because our school now has decided to give JC summer exams but this is SUBJECT TO CHANGE pending Mr McHugh's meetings this week.
So i have a new revision plan in place. Did it over the weekend( it is a 7 day day week now there are no weekends). I have just sent that to students . Have been instructed to tell them it is also subject to change.
We now have 24 school days at most left with these students. At least 5 of those will be for exams. Whatever about the LC which is still a bit away it is unacceptable that we are a week back after Easter and all we have gotten from the Minister is mixed messages through the media. I am sorry it is not good enough.
When you some multiple Principals coming out over the weekend literally crying out for communication/help you can not say he is doing his job . Communication has been appalling.
So while you are lambasting the Minister for not offering clarity to students and teachers, you're school has taken the bizarre decision to further complicate the matters for your own staff and students. Its not within JMcH's remit to determine if the 3rd years sit in-house end of year assessments for this year group. It would be far easier and clearer if your school issued a clear statement to your own students that they will (or will not) be examined at the end of May. There is such a large gap between now and the proposed examinations for students the decision should be made independently from the SECs. Personally, I'd examine them in May as it gives them something to work towards.
What clarifications would you like from the Minister? The LC is starting July 29th, timetable out first week of June, the JC will be assessed in schools in September. I see no reason to outline a detailed plan on either at this stage. The situation is evolving every day and any plan released is subject to change. I don't see how a lot of this is directly impacting teaching schedules.
The fact that multiple principles are calling for clarity is not necessarily an issue or failure on the part of the minister. People will always complain. It's the content of what they are saying that's important. I'm really struggling to see why teachers are up in arms.
I do agree clarification on practicals and project work should have been outlined by now. It's running too close and is unfair on everyone involved. It's clear how that effects both teachers and students.
None of this is a go at you km79, you're just the most vocal here. I'm also surprised I'm vehemently defending FG, they're a party I'd never consider giving a preference to.0 -
Maybe to mitigate cheating, you could tell students that you are varying the exams you give to the class slightly so they'd get caught that way.
Also, essay / project style questions will show up knowledge a bit more than short answers or multiple choice. It's harder to copy essays too. If they want to alter slightly to the nth degree then so be it, more hassle than its worth.
A colleague recommended using 20% of their overall grade from mocks and 10% from Christmas.
Most of mine don't even have the initiative to cheat! But if any school expects it to stand as some sort of JC grade -its a mistake. Lots of kids will cheat even if you try to vary it-even if you set a precise time frame etc. Can claim internet down etc
If I had over 30 students to correct-Id have only so much patience to check thoroughly for cheating.
Self important Principals rushing in . They could surely wait until September. Most kids will know the school exams --held in September are not as big a deal as State sat exams..Same with any exam held in May. But at least in September you could eliminate cheating.0 -
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Most of mine don't even have the initiative to cheat! But if any school expects it to stand as some sort of JC grade -its a mistake. Lots of kids will cheat even if you try to vary it-even if you set a precise time frame etc. Can claim internet down etc
If I had over 30 students to correct-Id have only so much patience to check thoroughly for cheating.
Self important Principals rushing in . They could surely wait until September. Most kids will know the school exams --held in September are not as big a deal as State sat exams..Same with any exam held in May. But at least in September you could eliminate cheating.
Well I would assume most teachers would be designing open-book examinations. There will be a WhatsApp group between the students, they will have their notes and the internet. Factoring all of that into the design of the assessment seems like the logical thing to do.
English etc. seem like easy subjects to implement it in. The STEM subjects slightly harder but still very doable. I think it's a change Universities need to make long term as it's more reflective of real-world scenarios but that's a whole different thread.0 -
Most of mine don't even have the initiative to cheat! But if any school expects it to stand as some sort of JC grade -its a mistake. Lots of kids will cheat even if you try to vary it-even if you set a precise time frame etc. Can claim internet down etc
If I had over 30 students to correct-Id have only so much patience to check thoroughly for cheating.
Self important Principals rushing in . They could surely wait until September. Most kids will know the school exams --held in September are not as big a deal as State sat exams..Same with any exam held in May. But at least in September you could eliminate cheating.
Does the 'cheating' really, really matter in the times we're in ?? Can't believe I just said that and waiting to be lambasted for it but I mean it in the context that you set an essay type question for the students and if they find the answer in the book, so what. It might be, for some, the first time they actually learned something from that chapter, being forced to read it, so to speak. Not cheating at all, only learning at the last possible minute ! And didn't colleges give open book exams ? Do we think there was no 'cheating' there ?
For the bulk of the JC students, JC exams means nothing in the long term because most of them go on to do LC probably via Transition Year and no body ever asks for JC results ever again. And for those who leave after JC, those children are likely to be among the most disadvantaged children in the country. If they get a little leg up for their last exam at a time when they had no access to face to face teachers, why not give them a little break for their futures. Give them the exam with a very light touch this year, I say.0 -
I agree completely with bren on the whole issue of McHugh et all supplying us with a clear plan. The only clear plan they could give us, without running the risk of changing it several times between now and its implementation would be to cancel the Leaving Cert exams and award predicted grades, and even then, they wouldn't be able to provide a completely clear plan, because there would almost certainly be flaws in their first plan on how to award predicted grades.
My opinion is that were it possible, they shouldn't have even announced postponing the leaving cert yet, because there's no need. As far as students and teachers should know, the leaving cert is going ahead in June, as usual, with the caveat that the situation is changeable and that if, in June, it isn't safe to hold the exams, that they'd be delayed until the same period in July (the first Wednesday in July is the 1st), and that the situation might need to be revised again after that. Obviously, that horse has bolted, but that, in my opinion, is what should have happened, because nobody actually needs to know more than that, other than those who are responsible for developing the contingency plans.
Now that that's off the table though, I'm still struggling to believe how many people don't seem to understand the situation. I, like bren, am no fan of McHugh or Fine Gael, but they can't give us a definite plan at this point, because any plan they give us might have to be thrown out, depending on the ongoing situation. Surely, we all understand that?
Short of cancelling the exams and awarding predicted grades (which, as I said, still wouldn't provide total clarity), the only comprehensive plan they could possibly provide would be one that laid out every forseeable contingency, and you'd wind up with a 200 page document, with every possible date, the corresponding exam timetable, the effect that will have on the remaining practical exams, the proposed dates for marking, grade returns, and third level start dates, etc. etc. etc.
It would take huge time and effort, and what would the result be? The same people who are complaining now would be complaining that they've been given too much information and that it's incomprehensible and making the students even more nervous and unsure (which would probably be the truth).
To be honest, I don't know why any teacher would be changing the plans they had anyway, other than adjusting them because of the differences remote teaching brings. You still have the same length of time between now and the end of the year. I haven't changed my plans one iota, except that I'm giving my students slightly less work to do than I'd expect of them in class, since it's difficult for many of them to get as much work done outside of a school environment.0 -
Does the 'cheating' really, really matter in the times we're in ?? Can't believe I just said that and waiting to be lambasted for it but I mean it in the context that you set an essay type question for the students and if they find the answer in the book, so what. It might be, for some, the first time they actually learned something from that chapter, being forced to read it, so to speak. Not cheating at all, only learning at the last possible minute ! And didn't colleges give open book exams ? Do we think there was no 'cheating' there ?
For the bulk of the JC students, JC exams means nothing in the long term because most of them go on to do LC probably via Transition Year and no body ever asks for JC results ever again. And for those who leave after JC, those children are likely to be among the most disadvantaged children in the country. If they get a little leg up for their last exam at a time when they had no access to face to face teachers, why not give them a little break for their futures. Give them the exam with a very light touch this year, I say.
I agree. Forget about the traditional style “memory test” exams. Think outside the box. If they’re going to have books and the internet to hand then embrace that....give them projects and assignments to do rather than “exams”. Projects require a bit of effort to be put in, award extra marks for initiative and detailed facts. At this stage the students will learn just as much doing assignments like that than regurgitating stuff from memory. They’re not getting an SEC accredited certificate anyway.0 -
I've no issue with the lack of further detail on the LC. I think he's done OK in relation to LC even if I have complained at times.
My reason for being completely frustrated with the Junior is that the idea of holding it in September at all was ludicrous. There were so many many problems with that proposal it was crazy and I won't go listing them all out again.
Now however yes I'm very frustrated. We started with the mental proposal to have it in September but the way he phrased it was "junior cert canceled". Not "junior cert postponed". At which point ALL students and parents stopped listening/reading and the vast majority didn't even realize that holding it in September was the proposal. The engagement was diabolical compared to before Easter with my Third Years last week as a consequence.
Then he came out and said that in house exams may be enough. But he doesn't know what that proposal will be. He made that announcement over Easter and then seems to have done absolutely nothing about the Junior Cert. But he came out and changed the picture, again telling us to "wait"
This is a 6-week term. 1 week is gone already. 1 week will be assessments in most schools. So there are 20 teaching days left in maths or 19 at this stage of the day. 8 teaching days for me in music. Every day he fails to give clarity to the Junior certs on these proposed may assessments is frustrating.
So yes obviously as a teacher I'm teaching. I've decided what I would be putting on the exams if I have autonomy but I don't have autonomy. I don't teach in a vacuum. I teach in a large school, in an ETB and in a State Exam System. So we are in limbo trying to field our students frustration and confusion while the powers that be talk.
And don't get me started about project work and about LCA? Has he forgotten they exist?0 -
mirrorwall14 wrote: »I've no issue with the lack of further detail on the LC. I think he's done OK in relation to LC even if I have complained at times.
My reason for being completely frustrated with the Junior is that the idea of holding it in September at all was ludicrous. There were so many many problems with that proposal it was crazy and I won't go listing them all out again.
Now however yes I'm very frustrated. We started with the mental proposal to have it in September but the way he phrased it was "junior cert canceled". Not "junior cert postponed". At which point ALL students and parents stopped listening/reading and the vast majority didn't even realize that holding it in September was the proposal. The engagement was diabolical compared to before Easter with my Third Years last week as a consequence.
Then he came out and said that in house exams may be enough. But he doesn't know what that proposal will be. He made that announcement over Easter and then seems to have done absolutely nothing about the Junior Cert. But he came out and changed the picture, again telling us to "wait"
This is a 6-week term. 1 week is gone already. 1 week will be assessments in most schools. So there are 20 teaching days left in maths or 19 at this stage of the day. 8 teaching days for me in music. Every day he fails to give clarity to the Junior certs on these proposed may assessments is frustrating.
So yes obviously as a teacher I'm teaching. I've decided what I would be putting on the exams if I have autonomy but I don't have autonomy. I don't teach in a vacuum. I teach in a large school, in an ETB and in a State Exam System. So we are in limbo trying to field our students frustration and confusion while the powers that be talk.
And don't get me started about project work and about LCA? Has he forgotten they exist?
This saved me retyping it! This is the reality for Junior Cert teachers at the moment.0 -
As ever, LCAs are being treated like second class citizens. It's awful that they could be expected to do about 8 different orals, practicals and tasks in 2 weeks, simply not possible.mirrorwall14 wrote: »And don't get me started about project work and about LCA? Has he forgotten they exist?0 -
This saved me retyping it! This is the reality for Junior Cert teachers at the moment.
My main gripe is with the uproar in relation to the LC. I really struggle to understand it from teachers. I understand it from students and parents (double standards, I know but I more emphatise with them than understand).
In relation to the JC, while I don't think a concrete plan should be released, I do think a lot of valid points have been raised by teachers on this forum and elsewhere. I don't agree with them all but I do agree that the communication on this topic has not been overly clear. Holding the exams in September seems to address only the issue of students having a JC but introduces logistical nightmares.
I don't necessarily blame JMcH, although he of course shoulders some of the responsibility. I do blame the media and, to a far lesser extent, the Unions (whom I have defended in this thread and my entire life) who do not seem to be engaging the Minister and relevant departments. Ultimately, it is the head of both unions who should be representing your views in correspondence with the Minister.
Note: I don't believe the conspiracy raised earlier that they were paid off with a board seat. I think that's a load of nonsense.
Just quoting you and not mirrorwall as text is shorter.0 -
I am actually glad that the unions haven't taken a "we will fight them on the beaches ...!" stance.
Apart from being inappropriate at this time, it would incite a media frenzy and bring teacher-bashing to a whole new level.
I also would have expected them to be more pro-active, and communicating with their members more though.
And perhaps they are working behind the scenes, and waiting for more clarity on various issues before making any big announcements to their members.
But from what I've seen in this thread, they don't seem to have convinced their members of that if it is the case.
Which is not good, really.0 -
randylonghorn wrote: »I am actually glad that the unions haven't taken a "we will fight them on the beaches ...!" stance.
Apart from being inappropriate at this time, it would incite a media frenzy and bring teacher-bashing to a whole new level.
I also would have expected them to be more pro-active, and communicating with their members more though.
And perhaps they are working behind the scenes, and waiting for more clarity on various issues before making any big announcements to their members.
But from what I've seen in this thread, they don't seem to have convinced their members of that if it is the case.
Which is not good, really.
I would agree with all of that0 -
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randylonghorn wrote: »I am actually glad that the unions haven't taken a "we will fight them on the beaches ...!" stance.
Apart from being inappropriate at this time, it would incite a media frenzy and bring teacher-bashing to a whole new level.
I also would have expected them to be more pro-active, and communicating with their members more though.
And perhaps they are working behind the scenes, and waiting for more clarity on various issues before making any big announcements to their members.
But from what I've seen in this thread, they don't seem to have convinced their members of that if it is the case.
Which is not good, really.
100% agree with that. It would be a massive PR mistake to fight working in July. That's a no-win situation.
They don't appear to be heavily involved in the decision making with the Minister, the department, or the SEC. That I find very odd. Nor have they communicated with their members well. That's more what I was getting at.0 -
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/lockdown-extended-for-another-two-weeks-for-the-vast-majority-39162734.html
“ In early June, the third phase could see people who have low levels of interaction with colleagues return to work.
People who can work remotely may be asked to continue to do so until September.”
Not sure how you go from that to high levels of interactions in classrooms and exam halls in July
And I think Simon Harris comment about schools returning soon which he made a week ago should be asked of him again now
Principals took that to mean LC May return in May
Not a chance now0 -
In terms of primary
This is very worrying
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/paediatricians-alerted-about-very-inflammatory-syndrome-in-some-children-with-covid-19-996451.html0 -
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/lockdown-extended-for-another-two-weeks-for-the-vast-majority-39162734.html
And I think Simon Harris comment about schools returning soon which he made a week ago should be asked of him again now
Principals took that to mean LC May return in May
Not a chance now
To be fair to Principals, there was no other meaning to infer from it as Harris specifically referenced getting "exam classes" back in May. I imagine he got his backside kicked for that as Varadker spent the day after that fielding questions on it when in reality it was never happening.
You would have to wonder about the media - two weeks running (Sunday Arpil 12th and Sunday April 19th) Sunday newspapers went with a headline suggesting that school-openings were imminent. Or at least that plans to do so were advanced. They don't even appear to have a plan as to how the LC will be held, supervised and marked, in August (or at least not one they are sharing) never mind how to open schools before June.
However, the buck stops with the government and its spokespersons. The media is hungry for something different in a fairly homogenous news-cycle. You even see people on here three weeks ago who reckoned the virus had peaked :rolleyes: and we'd be back in no time. They will wonder at themselves when they are going back in September 2021 still under social distancing conditions. But people like Harris need to tone it down.0 -
I miss the daily emails from staff trying to be promoted or instructions from younger staff on how to teach.
I miss kids not doing homework without any serious repercussions.
I miss kids constantly leaving class for the latest whizz whether it's yoga or mindlessness. The same kids who do nothing day after day.
I miss being lectured to by aggressive atheists who are simply the reverse of aggressive Christians, -attacking school ethos.
I miss being told I have to solve all the social issues that society can't sort.
Isn't it great by the way that one of the few places that are open is off-licenses? Society really has it's **** together0 -
I miss the daily emails from staff trying to be promoted or instructions from younger staff on how to teach.
I miss kids not doing homework without any serious repercussions.
I miss kids constantly leaving class for the latest whizz whether it's yoga or mindlessness. The same kids who do nothing day after day.
I miss being lectured to by aggressive atheists who are simply the reverse of aggressive Christians, -attacking school ethos.
I miss being told I have to solve all the social issues that society can't sort.
Isn't it great by the way that one of the few places that are open is off-licenses? Society really has it's **** together
This should be on a t shirt!0 -
I miss the daily emails from staff trying to be promoted or instructions from younger staff on how to teach.
I'm just teaching an FE module one evening a week, but I'm included in the emails for the school anyway. This is still ongoing in that school. Even the virus can't stop it.0 -
Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »I'm just teaching an FE module one evening a week, but I'm included in the emails for the school anyway. This is still ongoing in that school. Even the virus can't stop it.
Had to laugh at this, yes still ongoing, except now they’re trying to outdo each other on google meets!!!0 -
Had to laugh at this, yes still ongoing, except now they’re trying to outdo each other on google meets!!!
Do you reckon principals are rolling their eyes along with us, or are they delighted to see these innovative creatures sharing their knowledge with us?
I do have to laugh when I see management cc’d in these emails. So transparent!!0 -
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19-year-old student Jennifer Flynn of the Sacred Heart school, Clonakilty, Co. Cork, wrote in a letter in today's Indo that the government's response to the predicted-grade proposal is unreasonable and that there is a precedent for predicted grades because the State Exam Commission (SEC) last year defended its prtactice of awarding hundreds of estimated grades to students.
She wrote that the government has chosen to senselessly uphold tradition rather than sensible reasoning.
What is the reason for the government's insistence on the LC exams taking place as they usually do? It is possible that the ASTI would, on the basis of sui generis, agree to suspend its stance on the assessment of students by their teachers this year. It wouldn't necessarily set a precedent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_generis0
This discussion has been closed.
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