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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]
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Duplicate post ...apologies.0
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Whats wrong with that? They are working on contingency measures if circumstances change. That is exactly what they should be doing. I don't see how to effects anyone at present or makes anyones job harder. Teachers should prepare for a July 29th LC start unless otherwise informed.
I don't think the big issue is the teachers preparing etc ...id imagine most are willing
I think the issue is motivating what in most cases are still teenagers to aim at that given that the door is being left open to speculation....i appreciate a hard target is just not possible for the adults in the room at the moment but leaving the door open for predictive grades like that means more speculation and more procrastination and lack of engagement and tbh maybe the students be right ...the gamble of doing nothing just got a chink of light coming through the door.0 -
I don't think the big issue is the teachers preparing etc ...id imagine most are willing
I think the issue is motivating what in most cases are still teenagers to aim at that given that the door is being left open to speculation....i appreciate a hard target is just not possible for the adults in the room at the moment but leaving the door open for predictive grades like that means more speculation and more procrastination and lack of engagement and tbh maybe the students be right ...the gamble of doing nothing just got a chink of light coming through the door.
Don't forget the kid's trying to engage ,limited internet access is a problem ,will they be judged as students who didn't bother to take part in online classes0 -
This has just caused more confusion as I even see this week they were starting to settle , exams are happening that’s it .
But now they’ll end up driving twitter cuckoo again.
Getting very unfair on students and all concerned .0 -
Because he said earlier this week they were a no go as using mock grades would be unfair on students and getting teachers to predict grades would be unfair on them .
You are correct you don’t seem to see how any of these statements makes any of our jobs harder
You are not dealing with it day to day
I can 100% guarantee this has kicked it all off again .
We had only just for on top of it with our LC students and parents
I’m not commenting any further other than to say i would not continually tell 3rd level educators he reality of their day to day as I am not working in that sector during this
Well if the LC is not going ahead, it's important to develop a contingency plan. I agree predictive grading is unfair and hugely problematic, at the same time, how else can we determine who gets what University place if the exam is cancelled? I'm yet to hear a better viable alternative.
I have not once told anyone the reality of the day to day of teaching in second level. I'm meerly pointing out that the Taoiseach openly saying the Department are working on contingency plans in case the LC is cancelled is the correct thing to do. If he didn't, they would be accused of not being transparent, secretive, or incompetent. They lose no matter what they do. You were calling for a detailed plan, well here they are indicating that they are developing alternatives. It's utterly hypocritical.
Leos comment has ultimately changed nothing. The exams are still planned for July 29th but could be cancelled (nothing new there). Hence, teachers are being requested to prepare students for this. If students choose not to engage, they're pretty much adults, be it on their own head. What did Leo say that ultimately alters the approach teachers should take? Nothing.
I also have absolutely no issue with anyone engaging in a discussion on how difficult or easy third level teaching is and the impact Covid-19 has had on our community. In fact, I'd welcome it. If I just moan about the difficulties to other academics, well, of course they will agree with me. It's a giant echo chamber and a bit of context provides me with some clarity.
If you would like to know what it's been like for lecturers, awful is the answer. I've had to step in and take over a module for the past few weeks on a topic I didn't know enough to fit on the back of a posit note, I've to run a module for the next two months during my allocated time for research, I've to plan for a delayed start for the first years and assist in rejigging the entire course, I've to rejig my course for online delivery next year (including practicals), I've had to rewrite exams for the course I know little about for online delivery and rewrite my resits. I'm not an expert in education, I don't have a HDip or other equivalent, I'm making this up as I go along and rapidly reading books to identify the best solutions. None of it stands to me in getting a permanent contract. I could continue and list quite a few more things but every time my Head of School asks me to do something, I smile, add it to the pile, put my head down and just bloody work at it. It will all work out, students will graduate, new ones will come in, and funding will be released for PhD's and Post-Docs. Plenty of mistakes will be made but I make plenty of those myself, I won't call anyone out for mistakes once everyone is trying their best (and they are in my University).0 -
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It would not have been hard to keep speculation from reigniting here.
One line extra in the plan or statement along side the comment ‘it is hoped that the LC will proceed as planned on July 29th ahead of the opening of the main schools’
Nothing more. No need for questions by Mary Lou then. No immediate for debate. Simply confirming the maintenance of the status quo. No one would be discussing this again right now in this way. This is a substantial change of stance by him based on his prior statements that predictive grades were not possible and that the plans were all around running the exam in some form.
Given the past few weeks and the media coverage of almost every single piece of information about government plans in advance right down to the specifics like another two weeks lockdown, 2km changing to 5km etc, I cannot help but feel this is deliberate. That they do not think it will go ahead. And if I can think that, so can many other parents and students.
Testing the water like this and reigniting debate unnecessarily when the people at the heart of it are 17 year old students is just not fair. Plan the contingencies sure, right down to predictive grades. That’s your job. But don’t change your position on national media. Again. Not until you are actually cancelling it officially
Let’s not get into the who has it harder’ debate. Everyone has it hard right now. It’s absolutely ****e lets be honest about it.
But I think we could perhaps all agree that more statements in the national media about the LC are serving no purpose until they can actually move the debate along and provide clarity. They had told us that would be in a months time. So just leave it at that please government0 -
Whats wrong with that? They are working on contingency measures if circumstances change. That is exactly what they should be doing. I don't see how to effects anyone at present or makes anyones job harder. Teachers should prepare for a July 29th LC start unless otherwise informed.
Nobody has ever said that contingency plans should not be worked on. The point the other poster was getting at is that predicted grades is not a credible contingency plan.
They are an absolute last desperate resort at best.
A system where predicted grades would be credible would have common, properly monitored assignments/exams corrected to an agreed standard in the knowledge that they had an official standing across all schools throughout the year. This is not the case and does not qualify as an acceptable contingency plan.
In fact given the discussion around this in recent months, which has seen predicted grades discredited by virtually anyone who actually works in a school, for Varadkar to still come out with this implies that they haven't a shred of a contingency plan.0 -
Predicted grades would be all sorts of a disaster, if that is the contingency plan then God help us. Can you really imagine teachers in the fee paying schools of this country for fear of parental backlash not inflating grades, Daddy ringing the principal to say Im paying €5000 a year and your Maths teacher gave my daughter a H4.
Do people really think that wont happen? If we are ever forced in to that charade then how does the teacher in a school that gives an honest, genuine grade feel when they compromise their student in the points race against teachers/schools giving inflated grades. I can see no way in which predicted grades can work.0 -
Predicted grades would be all sorts of a disaster, if that is the contingency plan then God help us. Can you really imagine teachers in the fee paying schools of this country for fear of parental backlash not inflating grades, Daddy ringing the principal to say Im paying €5000 a year and your Maths teacher gave my daughter a H4.
Do people really think that wont happen? If we are ever forced in to that charade then how does the teacher in a school that gives an honest, genuine grade feel when they compromise their student in the points race against teachers/schools giving inflated grades. I can see no way in which predicted grades can work.
I’m not in favour of predicted grades.
At all.
But as someone working in a private school this notion of parental pressure to inflate grades in an imaginary hypothetical scenario drives me insane
As I feel the professionalism and more importantly, the character and integrity of a subsection of teachers are being called into question
It never happens for house exams and it wouldn’t happen in this hypothetical situation as any complaint would have to go to the SEC.
If Johnny has been getting a H4 for 2 years but that H4 has gone from 61 to 65 to 67 to 69, it wouldn’t be a travesty to award a H3, but if Johnny went from a H4 to a H1, that’s pulling the pi$$.
Predicted grades can’t work for a lot of reason but the integrity of teachers working in private schools
Is not one of them0 -
My point wasn’t even about the legitimacy or otherwise Of using predicted grades
(And I believe some schools are using the JC as a test run for this )
My point was that the absence of any mention of the LC between phase 1 and phase 5 in the “roadmap” allied with Leo’s remarks about schools not returning until September (and subsequent remarks from Simon Harris ) and then his comments on predicted grades which he had two days earlier categorically ruled out using was sure to breed more confusion amongst LC students over the bank holiday weekend . This will affect motivation etc again and increase stress and anxiety .
As someone who communicates daily with LC students and parents I can assure you this is the reality . We had just got a handle on it and assured them it was going ahead 100%. Predicted grades would not be used so don’t be worrying about poor mock grades , continue with revision plan etc etc
This was the clear message from the govt.
Now once again there are mixed messages going out to the whole country and media/social media are back on the cancel the leaving cert wagon
This is going to set us back possibly to square one again in terms of motivating and engaging LCerts
That is the reality0 -
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Inspector Cooptor, I Take that on board fully and I am sorry for coming across as questioning your professionalism/integrity I really am. I fully accept that as many teachers in fee paying schools as in non fee paying are willing and strong enough to give the grade the student deserves.It is grind schools maybe I am more concerned with.
I guess I have become cynical with my own experiences as a History teacher regards the Leaving Cert History project. Two people I know working in separate fee paying/grind schools were told they were to make sure as much they could that all students in their class got full marks even if it meant editing the student project for them. The average mark for the History leaving cert project nationwide is now 92% and that is totally unrealistic, its a joke actualy. How can students who are getting H7 in the exam be completing off their own bat a project for 92%.
It has happened because teachers in grind schools and maybe naturally are maximising results for their students and this obviously filters down, I have heard so many History, Geography teachers in my school say oh I have tn make sure they get full marks in that section as the grinds schools are and Im not going to let my students at a disadvantage. Do I think thats right, no way.
I am sorry again for tarring fee paying school teachers, I do have a genuine concern about grade inflation to keep up with grind schools maybe more so.0 -
Will the amount of content that has to be covered in each subject for the Leaving Cert be reduced to take account of the obviously huge amount of class time that students have missed due to this crisis?0
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Inspector Coptoor wrote: »I’m not in favour or predicted grades.
At all.
But as someone working in a private school this notion of parental pressure to inflate grades in an imaginary hypothetical scenario drives me insane
As I feel the professionalism and more unlearn my, character and integrity of a subsection of teachers are being called into question
It never happens for house exams and it wouldn’t happen in this hypothetical situation as any complaint would have to go to the SEC.
If Johnny has been getting a H4 for 2 years but that H4 has gone from 61 to 65 to 67 to 69, it wouldn’t be a travesty to award a H3, but if Johnny went from a H4 to a H1, that’s pulling the pi$$.
Predicted grades can’t work for a lot of reason but the integrity of teachers working in private schools
Is not one of them
As someone who worked in a private (well voluntary-fee-charging actually). I can safely say that that definitely wasn't my experience Inspector, your'e very lucky.
Pressure is brought to bare every single week, I'd list examples but they are so whacky it would be identifiable. It's gotten to the stage where I'm sure some teachers give inflated results just for a quiet life.
Here's how over 200 schools in Ireland will be getting at around the problem of predicted grades from a teacher.
Basically it's Past Results + Entrance tests like Drumcondras/CATS .
.... Oh and btw every teacher is awarded an average grade for all their classes too!
https://www.athena.ie/athena-tracker
If you find out your school is using it then I suggest you increase all grades forthwith :pac:
I presume many will be using it now for the JC.0 -
As someone who worked in a private (well voluntary-fee-charging actually). I can safely say that that definitely wasn't my experience Inspector, your'e very lucky.
Pressure is brought to bare every single week, I'd list examples but they are so whacky it would be identifiable. It's gotten to the stage where I'm sure some teachers give inflated results just for a quiet life.
Here's how over 200 schools in Ireland will be getting at around the problem of predicted grades from a teacher.
Basically it's Past Results + Entrance tests like Drumcondras/CATS .
.... Oh and btw every teacher is awarded an average grade for all their classes too!
https://www.athena.ie/athena-tracker
If you find out your school is using it then I suggest you increase all grades forthwith :pac:
I presume many will be using it now for the JC.
I have some experience of the Athena tracker and I’m very dubious of its usefulness.
Far be it from tracking students - I see it being used as a way to track the “value added” a teacher brings.
Schools are going to have different local arrangements for JC grades.
Thankfully we are not using predicted grades as this would set a precedent.
We are using a combination of past results, engagement since March 12th and a final exam in May, albeit an online one of little value as it will be very easy to cheat.0 -
Inspector Cooptor, I Take that on board fully and I am sorry for coming across as questioning your professionalism/integrity I really am. I fully accept that as many teachers in fee paying schools as in non fee paying are willing and strong enough to give the grade the student deserves.It is grind schools maybe I am more concerned with.
I guess I have become cynical with my own experiences as a History teacher regards the Leaving Cert History project. Two people I know working in separate fee paying/grind schools were told they were to make sure as much they could that all students in their class got full marks even if it meant editing the student project for them. The average mark for the History leaving cert project nationwide is now 92% and that is totally unrealistic, its a joke actualy. How can students who are getting H7 in the exam be completing off their own bat a project for 92%.
It has happened because teachers in grind schools and maybe naturally are maximising results for their students and this obviously filters down, I have heard so many History, Geography teachers in my school say oh I have tn make sure they get full marks in that section as the grinds schools are and Im not going to let my students at a disadvantage. Do I think thats right, no way.
I am sorry again for tarring fee paying school teachers, I do have a genuine concern about grade inflation to keep up with grind schools maybe more so.
Fair point re: the RSR project.
This is why I like my subjects being once off 3 hour exams with no CA that can be influenced by outside agents, although that is gonna change in Sept 2021 to an 80% exam, 20% project set up.0 -
political analyst wrote: »Will the amount of content that has to be covered in each subject for the Leaving Cert be reduced to take account of the obviously huge amount of class time that students have missed due to this crisis?
I would advise you to send your question to minister Joe McHugh.
None of us here would be privy to such information.0 -
political analyst wrote: »Will the amount of content that has to be covered in each subject for the Leaving Cert be reduced to take account of the obviously huge amount of class time that students have missed due to this crisis?
I would think the papers are already printed and ready to go.
But they could put in addenda. Give a choice of 5 out of 6 instead of 6 compulsory questions!0 -
Well if the LC is not going ahead, it's important to develop a contingency plan. I agree predictive grading is unfair and hugely problematic, at the same time, how else can we determine who gets what University place if the exam is cancelled? I'm yet to hear a better viable alternative.
I have not once told anyone the reality of the day to day of teaching in second level. I'm meerly pointing out that the Taoiseach openly saying the Department are working on contingency plans in case the LC is cancelled is the correct thing to do. If he didn't, they would be accused of not being transparent, secretive, or incompetent. They lose no matter what they do. You were calling for a detailed plan, well here they are indicating that they are developing alternatives. It's utterly hypocritical.
/QUOTE]
On your last point., there is no hypocrisy. Indicating the development of alternatives is not the same as a detailed plan. Schools have been closed for almost two months now. That's long enough to be beyond "developing" plans for what was an entirely foreseeable problem0 -
Inspector Coptoor wrote: »I have some experience of the Athena tracker and I’m very dubious of its usefulness.
Far be it from tracking students - I see it being used as a way to track the “value added” a teacher brings.
Schools are going to have different local arrangements for JC grades.
Thankfully we are not using predicted grades as this would set a precedent.
We are using a combination of past results, engagement since March 12th and a final exam in May, albeit an online one of little value as it will be very easy to cheat.
One thing that will most certainly not happen is predicted grades.
The courts would be swamped with challenges because Niamh of Fiachra missed out on their chosen course by 5 points and their Irish teacher never liked them!0 -
Inspector Coptoor wrote: »Fair point re: the RSR project.
This is why I like my subjects being once off 3 hour exams with no CA that can be influenced by outside agents, although that is gonna change in Sept 2021 to an 80% exam, 20% project set up.
There is something pure and incorruptible about a straightforward exam. I am a great believer in that as the ultimate judge of skill, knowledge, and character0 -
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“
Fianna Fáil has called on the Government to cancel this year's Leaving Certificate and work on what it calls "fair alternatives", while Sinn Féin has asked for the public health criteria needed for the exams to proceed be clarified.
Both parties have criticised the fact that there was no mention of the Leaving Certificate exams in the Taoiseach's roadmap statement on the easing of the Covid-19 restrictions yesterday evening.
Fianna Fáil's education spokesperson Thomas Byrne said he believed this was a "huge oversight". He said this absence had added to "the already heightened anxiety among Leaving Cert students".
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0502/1136247-education-leaving-cert/
No comment0 -
There is something pure and incorruptible about a straightforward exam. I am a great believer in that as the ultimate judge of skill, knowledge, and character
I agree fully...and in times when the world isn’t upside down, it’s the way to go.
Take the pre exam result and add 10% ..Offer that to the LC cohort of 2020 as an option.Do it now and give them a week to decide.
I would predict that over 85% of students would accept the proposal. Let those who decline the offer sit their exams .The numbers would be small and easy to manage for every school.
Don’t pooh pooh unless you’ve got an alternative of your own!!0 -
Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »I agree fully...and in times when the world isn’t upside down, it’s the way to go.
Take the pre exam result and add 10% ..Offer that to the LC cohort of 2020 as an option.Do it now and give them a week to decide.
I would predict that over 85% of students would accept the proposal. Let those who decline the offer sit their exams .The numbers would be small and easy to manage for every school.
Don’t pooh pooh unless you’ve got an alternative of your own!!
At the top end - there’s no fairness in what you are suggesting.
Let’s say Inhave a Student X who got 98% in the Mock and student Y who got 89%.
Using your “solution”, the extremely bright student Doesn’t benefit and the bright student does.
For courses like medicine and veterinary etc, your solution will bring with it huge problems.
Also - in terms of “fairness” a student in a mock gets 69%.
You add 10% - they’re now on 79%, one away from a H2. Fair? For a mock exam they did in Jan or Feb?
Nah, didn’t think so0 -
Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »I agree fully...and in times when the world isn’t upside down, it’s the way to go.
Take the pre exam result and add 10% ..Offer that to the LC cohort of 2020 as an option.Do it now and give them a week to decide.
I would predict that over 85% of students would accept the proposal. Let those who decline the offer sit their exams .The numbers would be small and easy to manage for every school.
Don’t pooh pooh unless you’ve got an alternative of your own!!
I would say less than 40% would take it. The vast majority of LC students have an overinflated view of their capabilities in most subjects because they are largely novices. Ask students at the start of 6th year what grade they expect and you will find that they are terrifyingly ignorant/overly optimistic.
The mocks unfortunately are a joke because there is a subset of teacher more worried about their reputation than anything else. There is also a subset of students who cheat in them. There is also an issue with the validity of marking. Mock results don't always improve significantly either for every student. More like 30-40%.
Predictive grades will amount to guess work. Those students who shout the loudest at the minute will be the ones on the phone complaining when they don't get into their course.
Hard working students prior to the closures are still working hard. The best predictor of success at third level is the amount of points one gets. Drop out rates are very high in low points courses. It is the opposite in high points courses. This is ignored in the media. Common sense would tell you success in academia requires an ability to concentrate for large amounts of time, intrinsic motivation, self regulation in general, and lots of prior knowledge. The LC is a great measure of this. The inequalities built into the education system should not be mistaken for inequalities in the examination system.
The DES will see that the system has to change as a result of this. Obviously, changes should not be made because of a once in 100 year event but I can see the Senior Cycle changes accounting for it. This is not a good thing.0 -
Mocks are not a reliable indicator as the papers were known beforehand. House exams over senior cycle- Xmas, summer, midterms wud be a better0
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jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »Mocks are not a reliable indicator as the papers were known beforehand. House exams over senior cycle- Xmas, summer, midterms wud be a better
Think people forget how many 6th years had the mock papers before the exam since schools do them at different timesAll Eyes On Rafah
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jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »Mocks are not a reliable indicator as the papers were known beforehand. House exams over senior cycle- Xmas, summer, midterms wud be a better
These are set by teachers and in the vast majority of cases are not reliable.0 -
Your response to my suggestion is selective to say the least. You ignored the ‘option’ element afforded to students.Inspector Coptoor wrote: »At the top end - there’s no fairness in what you are suggesting.
Let’s say Inhave a Student X who got 98% in the Mock and student Y who got 89%.
Using your “solution”, the extremely bright student Doesn’t benefit and the bright student does.
For courses like medicine and veterinary etc, your solution will bring with it huge problems.
Also - in terms of “fairness” a student in a mock gets 69%.
You add 10% - they’re now on 79%, one away from a H2. Fair? For a mock exam they did in Jan or Feb?
Nah, didn’t think so
The prospect of the LC being cancelled is very real . Perhaps ‘house’ exams could be used instead of Pre-exams?
I am genuinely interested in hearing suggestions from you (or anyone else here) on how to proceed in the event of the exams being cancelled.0 -
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Common sense would tell you success in academia requires an ability to concentrate for large amounts of time, intrinsic motivation, self regulation in general, and lots of prior knowledge. The LC is a great measure of this.
It certainly is. A lot of tosh talked about it being a 'memory test' (as if remembering stuff shouldn't matter!) but it challenges and measures students across a range of abilities including basic effort and application. Many people don't like having that sort of light shone on them of course which gives rise to much of its criticism.0
This discussion has been closed.
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