Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

jimmytwotimes 2013

Could you could also see a bell curve being provided to schools and results to be based off the traditional performance of schools in relation to national average

Just an idea

Inspector Coptoor

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Could you could also see a bell curve being provided to schools and results to be based off the traditional performance of schools in relation to national average

Just an idea

That’s what they are doing in the UK.

Teachers Predict the grades f the students and rank the students in the class 1-30 or whatever the number is.

Head of department then collates results and ranks students from say 1-150 if there’s that many in the year group/subject.

Then they are compared to the schools results over the last 3-5 years to establish a bell curve and then the results are adjusted to for the curve.

I could have given a student a fair 71% and the bell curve adjusts downwards by 2% to give a H4 and 12 points less and the student misses a course.

I didn’t ignore the “option” the poster provided - I was simply saying what would happen.

Treppen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Could you could also see a bell curve being provided to schools and results to be based off the traditional performance of schools in relation to national average

Just an idea

Applying a bell curve to a small population is nonsense.
If that were the case I'd have I'd have to have Stephen Hawkins and Donald Trump in every class. I know some classes where everyone scores over 70%.

rainbowtrout

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I’m not in favour of predicted grades.
At all.

But as someone working in a private school this notion of parental pressure to inflate grades in an imaginary hypothetical scenario drives me insane
As I feel the professionalism and more importantly, the character and integrity of a subsection of teachers are being called into question

It never happens for house exams and it wouldn’t happen in this hypothetical situation as any complaint would have to go to the SEC.

If Johnny has been getting a H4 for 2 years but that H4 has gone from 61 to 65 to 67 to 69, it wouldn’t be a travesty to award a H3, but if Johnny went from a H4 to a H1, that’s pulling the pi$$.

Predicted grades can’t work for a lot of reason but the integrity of teachers working in private schools
Is not one of them

Can't say I agree with you having been on the road as an examiner over the years.

Once parents pay fees they feel they have a right to pick up the phone and complain about everything and anything. They haven't had the opportunity to demand grades before because the system doesn't allow for it, doesn't mean they won't if we end up in a situation where we are forced into giving predicted grades.

There were teachers posting on here when the news of CBAs first came out a few years back, that the news had barely made the headlines when parents where ringing their school principal about grades for their kids.

But you've outlined the problem nicely, if Johnny has been getting a H4 for two years, then why would you award him a H3? You say it wouldn't be a travesty, but he hasn't proved himself capable of getting the H3 at any point, so why give it to him now? That extra 10 points in the LC, could be the reason he gets a place in a course and another student who was awarded grades in line with their ability doesn't.

And therein lies the problem. Some teachers will give ridiculously inflated grades going from H4 to H1 to appease students/principal/parents etc, but other teachers will feel that bumping them up just the one grade won't matter. It does. It's still grade inflation.

Is any teacher who has had a student consistently getting 88 for the last two years going to give a H2 or a H1? I suspect H1s would be wildly out of synch with what actually happens every year.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Treppen wrote: »

Applying a bell curve to a small population is nonsense.
If that were the case I'd have I'd have to have Stephen Hawkins and Donald Trump in every class. I know some classes where everyone scores over 70%.

You clearly didn't read what I wrote

rainbowtrout

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Could you could also see a bell curve being provided to schools and results to be based off the traditional performance of schools in relation to national average

Just an idea

No, there are many different factors that can affect the grades in a school from year to year. Discipline/attendance might have been poor for years and then perhaps with a change of management, things have turned around and the grades as a result of better attendance etc are on the up. Those students could lose out based on the previous years results. The reverse situation could also happen.

Some teachers get better results than others. Might as well throw that out there. There can be a marked difference between the grades for two different classes (allowing for the ability of the students) within the same school.

You can have a year group that are an anomaly, i.e. very good or very weak, and don't fit the usual results of the school.

You could have a cohort that score relatively well in a subject but generally don't get higher than a H2. This year there is a student who is H1 standard. Should they lose out because no one got a H1 for the last 5 year in that school?

Students who take the non-curricular languages - Polish, Lithuanian etc.. who grades them? Some schools have a large cohort, but some will only have one or two each year and possibly different languages.

Students that take an extra (and often uncommon subject) outside school, where do they fit in?

And students doing the LC as external candidates and not attached to a school, who grades them?

doc_17

If it does go the way if predicted grades I would be I favour of no appeals process. If they aren’t happy then they can take an actual paper, have it corrected, and that is their result.

But I’m not in favour of predicted grades.

I was 50/50 on it gong ahead but now that those idiots in FF have come out calling for it to be cancelled I’m more 40/60

Comer1

doc_17 wrote: »

If it does go the way if predicted grades I would be I favour of no appeals process. If they aren’t happy then they can take an actual paper, have it corrected, and that is their result.

If teachers inflatable grades, which they will, to some extent anyway, points will go up and this will put anyone opting to sit the exam at a real disadvantage.

doc_17

Comer1 wrote: »

If teachers inflatable grades, which they will, to some extent anyway, points will go up and this will put anyone opting to sit the exam at a real disadvantage.

So don’t sit it. They already have their inflated grade.

Millionaire only not

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Can't say I agree with you having been on the road as an examiner over the years.

Once parents pay fees they feel they have a right to pick up the phone and complain about everything and anything. They haven't had the opportunity to demand grades before because the system doesn't allow for it, doesn't mean they won't if we end up in a situation where we are forced into giving predicted grades.

There were teachers posting on here when the news of CBAs first came out a few years back, that the news had barely made the headlines when parents where ringing their school principal about grades for their kids.

But you've outlined the problem nicely, if Johnny has been getting a H4 for two years, then why would you award him a H3? You say it wouldn't be a travesty, but he hasn't proved himself capable of getting the H3 at any point, so why give it to him now? That extra 10 points in the LC, could be the reason he gets a place in a course and another student who was awarded grades in line with their ability doesn't.

And therein lies the problem. Some teachers will give ridiculously inflated grades going from H4 to H1 to appease students/principal/parents etc, but other teachers will feel that bumping them up just the one grade won't matter. It does. It's still grade inflation.

Is any teacher who has had a student consistently getting 88 for the last two years going to give a H2 or a H1? I suspect H1s would be wildly out of synch with what actually happens every year.

And who says the leaving cert is always marked correctly, my own one did leaving last year and in her Irish paper wrote her essay slightly off the topic read question wrong ) not miles away by any means .
Anyway she got H1in all other parts of the exam and they knocked her so much it brought her down to H3 . She always got H1 and was gutted it should have been to do with her Irish with slight correction for off the topic but to hammer her down was ott.

Benicetomonty

Millionaire only not wrote: »

And who says the leaving cert is always marked correctly, my own one did leaving last year and in her Irish paper wrote her essay slightly off the topic read question wrong ) not miles away by any means .
Anyway she got H1in all other parts of the exam and they knocked her so much it brought her down to H3 . She always got H1 and was gutted it should have been to do with her Irish with slight correction for off the topic but to hammer her down was ott.

I dont know how significant the essay is in Irish but had the same mistake been made in the English essay (which represents 25% of the exam) then a H3 would represent a likely and reasonable outcome. It sounds like your daughter's paper was marked perfectly fairly.

Regardless, she would have been able to view her script with her teacher as part of the appeals procedure if she felt a grevious error had been made. That would not be an option in a predicted grades scenario.

km79

km79 wrote: »

“
Fianna Fáil has called on the Government to cancel this year's Leaving Certificate and work on what it calls "fair alternatives", while Sinn Féin has asked for the public health criteria needed for the exams to proceed be clarified.

Both parties have criticised the fact that there was no mention of the Leaving Certificate exams in the Taoiseach's roadmap statement on the easing of the Covid-19 restrictions yesterday evening.

Fianna Fáil's education spokesperson Thomas Byrne said he believed this was a "huge oversight". He said this absence had added to "the already heightened anxiety among Leaving Cert students".

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0502/1136247-education-leaving-cert/

No comment

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/coronavirus-ireland-let-students-opt-out-of-the-state-exams-39176599.html

Can’t wait for school Tuesday

jayo76

In History the RSR in our school is never included in the mocks so that means that for most students there is an increase in marks between mocks and real thing.

Example, Student gets 35% in mocks this is 140/400 marks. If they got exact same in written paper in June plus the national average of 92% for RSR that brings result 227/500 which equalr 45%, jump of 10% by just factoring in RSR and move from H7 to H6, as mad as that is it would have to be factored in to those options in that article.

Millionaire only not

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I dont know how significant the essay is in Irish but had the same mistake been made in the English essay (which represents 25% of the exam) then a H3 would represent a likely and reasonable outcome. It sounds like your daughter's paper was marked perfectly fairly.

Regardless, she would have been able to view her script with her teacher as part of the appeals procedure if she felt a grevious error had been made. That would not be an option in a predicted grades scenario.

.

So in your opinion a person that had h1 got all along and semi read the essay question wrong on the day deserved a h3 on the most important day .

The question I believe was -what do u think the government has done to improve society , I think she answered it what the government should do ! . It wasn’t a thousand miles away anyway whatever she did !

So again just to be clear continuous assessments is not the answer , perform on the day ? That is your take on how good a student is?

I would believe her essay should have been based On the Irish used and way she wrote it and she deserved a punishment but hardly to that extent. Her teacher checked it and it was appealed to no avail . Her exam paper was 90/100 in every other part expect that . Thks for your input .

doc_17

So, there’s an oral, an aural, paper 1 and paper 2. How many marks is the essay worth?

doc_17

And I think the point is that the essay was marked correctly. It might not have been fair in your eyes. But it was marked according to the same scheme that was used to mark everything else.

Comer1

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I dont know how significant the essay is in Irish but had the same mistake been made in the English essay (which represents 25% of the exam) then a H3 would represent a likely and reasonable outcome. It sounds like your daughter's paper was marked perfectly fairly.

Regardless, she would have been able to view her script with her teacher as part of the appeals procedure if she felt a grevious error had been made. That would not be an option in a predicted grades scenario.

Two grade drop for going slightly off topic in a language exam, how could anyone justify that? They look for reasons to pull down the top students and to pull up the lower students to preserve their precious bell curve.

randylonghorn

km79 wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/coronavirus-ireland-let-students-opt-out-of-the-state-exams-39176599.html

Easy for someone who has fecked off to to Dubai to pontificate and get his name in the papers; fall-out won't land in his lap.

Treppen

Millionaire only not wrote: »

And who says the leaving cert is always marked correctly, my own one did leaving last year and in her Irish paper wrote her essay slightly off the topic read question wrong ) not miles away by any means .
Anyway she got H1in all other parts of the exam and they knocked her so much it brought her down to H3 . She always got H1 and was gutted it should have been to do with her Irish with slight correction for off the topic but to hammer her down was ott.

I think that is happened to a lot of students. I suppose if you write off topic then you aren't drawing from from the right vocabulary or conversation at structure.

It's like in maths where you may carry over an incorrect answer to complete a subsequent question. But if it simplified the question then you get penalised.

Treppen

Millionaire only not wrote: »

.

So in your opinion a person that had h1 got all along and semi read the essay question wrong on the day deserved a h3 on the most important day .

The question I believe was -what do u think the government has done to improve society , I think she answered it what the government should do ! . It wasn’t a thousand miles away anyway whatever she did !

So again just to be clear continuous assessments is not the answer , perform on the day ? That is your take on how good a student is?

I would believe her essay should have been based On the Irish used and way she wrote it and she deserved a punishment but hardly to that extent. Her teacher checked it and it was appealed to no avail . Her exam paper was 90/100 in every other part expect that . Thks for your input .

The Irish used was in the wrong tense.

Random sample

If the marks in an Irish essay were based only on the quality of the Irish, and not the topic asked that would encourage students to learn an essay off by heart and use it regardless of the question asked.

In LC Irish there are marks for sticking to the topic, and if you lose some of them, marks for the quality of Irish reduce on the same scale.

jayo76

Millionaire only not wrote: »

.

So in your opinion a person that had h1 got all along and semi read the essay question wrong on the day deserved a h3 on the most important day .

The question I believe was -what do u think the government has done to improve society , I think she answered it what the government should do ! . It wasn’t a thousand miles away anyway whatever she did !

So again just to be clear continuous assessments is not the answer , perform on the day ? That is your take on how good a student is?

I would believe her essay should have been based On the Irish used and way she wrote it and she deserved a punishment but hardly to that extent. Her teacher checked it and it was appealed to no avail . Her exam paper was 90/100 in every other part expect that . Thks for your input .

Hi there, just to offer my perpective on this. I really do feel sorry for your daughter that that essay had such an impact last year. However in many ways, a final exam as tough as it is, is the only truly fair way at second level.

If you look at my comment above on History RSR'S then surely the fault with continious assessment is obvious, RSR is a 20% project presubmitted a month before exam and the national average in it is 92/100. That is totally, false, inflated and unfortunately in my eyes totally undermines the many merits that CA does offer. It has happened because teachers for a variety of reasons, ego, their own reputation, fear of criticism, fear of the powerpoint presentation in September comparing their results with the national average insist on maximising results for all students even those that dont deserve it.

This situation is totaly unfair on the good students that do deserve high marks as the student that did nothing and is dragged through by the teacher ends up with the same grade. It is one of the main reasons I have been against proposed changes at Junior Cycle

Treppen

What's the least possible % difference between a H1 and a H3?

Random sample

The essay is worth 100/600. It’s also a full paper.

randylonghorn

Um ... how has this thread turned into a discussion of an exam paper which ...

... we haven't seen

... most of us wouldn't be competent to judge even if we had?

Benicetomonty

Millionaire only not wrote: »

.

So in your opinion a person that had h1 got all along and semi read the essay question wrong on the day deserved a h3 on the most important day .

The question I believe was -what do u think the government has done to improve society , I think she answered it what the government should do ! . It wasn’t a thousand miles away anyway whatever she did !

So again just to be clear continuous assessments is not the answer , perform on the day ? That is your take on how good a student is?

I would believe her essay should have been based On the Irish used and way she wrote it and she deserved a punishment but hardly to that extent. Her teacher checked it and it was appealed to no avail . Her exam paper was 90/100 in every other part expect that . Thks for your input .

Im not an Irish teacher but still dont see the problem. Language is essentially 2 things: comprehension and composition. The former is arguably more important than the latter because if you read the q incorrectly, you cannot hope to answer the task correctly, no matter how well you write. There would be a mechanism in the marking scheme to ensure such an error would not be severly punished, but it is a bad mistake to make and will be reflected in the marks.

Inspector Coptoor

Treppen wrote: »

What's the least possible % difference between a H1 and a H3?

In Irish - If it’s out 600, then 61 marks or 10.16%

Dropping from 90 to 79.84%

I’ve had so many students over the years get between 356-359 out of 400 for 89-89.75%.

Random sample

randylonghorn wrote: »

Um ... how has this thread turned into a discussion of an exam paper which ...

... we haven't seen

... most of us wouldn't be competent to judge even if we had?

This was a common error in last year’s LC. A lot of students appealed because they didn’t understand why they had lost the marks. The original mark was upheld in most cases. I think that’s why people feel competent to judge.

randylonghorn

Random sample wrote: »

This was a common error in last year’s LC. A lot of students appealed because they didn’t understand why they had lost the marks. The original mark was upheld in most cases. I think that’s why people feel competent to judge.

Um, I work at 3L not 2L, but I've corrected English LC HL a couple of times (in the past and between jobs).

I don't consider that renders me competent to comment on Irish (despite half my family speaking Irish as a first language and English as a second), or, indeed, Spanish or French, or, hell, Lithuanian or Russian.

And, even if I was big-headed enough to do so, I wouldn't do so in a thread with a completely different focus!

Random sample

randylonghorn wrote: »

Um, I work at 3L not 2L, but I've corrected English LC HL a couple of times (in the past and between jobs).

I don't consider that renders me competent to comment on Irish (despite half my family speaking Irish as a first language and English as a second), or, indeed, Spanish or French, or, hell, Lithuanian or Russian.

And, even if I was big-headed enough to do so, I wouldn't do so in a thread with a completely different focus!

I was just answering a question.

I agree it’s off topic.