Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

randylonghorn

Random sample wrote: »

I was just answering a question.

Just to be clear ... I wasn't having a go, and my apologies if it seemed as if I was.

Sometimes text-only loses the nuances.

Random sample wrote: »

I agree it’s off topic.

Exactly. Completely.

rainbowtrout

Millionaire only not wrote: »

.

So in your opinion a person that had h1 got all along and semi read the essay question wrong on the day deserved a h3 on the most important day .

The question I believe was -what do u think the government has done to improve society , I think she answered it what the government should do ! . It wasn’t a thousand miles away anyway whatever she did !

So again just to be clear continuous assessments is not the answer , perform on the day ? That is your take on how good a student is?

I would believe her essay should have been based On the Irish used and way she wrote it and she deserved a punishment but hardly to that extent. Her teacher checked it and it was appealed to no avail . Her exam paper was 90/100 in every other part expect that . Thks for your input .

If she didn't write a H1 standard paper on the day then she doesn't deserve a H1. It's that simple. You are graded on what you write on the paper. By your own admission she read the question wrong and didn't answer what she was asked. She is being graded on the the answer to the question, not on what she writes. If we were to grade all Leaving Cert papers on that basis, we just wouldn't bother putting any questions on it except 'You have three hours to write whatever you want about this subject'.

It's a harsh lesson to learn, but read the question. I've had a number of students over the years who've missed out on higher grades because they didn't read the question correctly, and when we go to view the paper they always start out with 'but I wrote 2 pages for that answer' and my reply is always 'but you didn't answer what you were asked, sorry'.

Millionaire only not

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If she didn't write a H1 standard paper on the day then she doesn't deserve a H1. It's that simple. You are graded on what you write on the paper. By your own admission she read the question wrong and didn't answer what she was asked. She is being graded on the the answer to the question, not on what she writes. If we were to grade all Leaving Cert papers on that basis, we just wouldn't bother putting any questions on it except 'You have three hours to write whatever you want about this subject'.

It's a harsh lesson to learn, but read the question. I've had a number of students over the years who've missed out on higher grades because they didn't read the question correctly, and when we go to view the paper they always start out with 'but I wrote 2 pages for that answer' and my reply is always 'but you didn't answer what you were asked, sorry'.

My point here today fair enough u don’t deserve a H1 I’m not that thick . But if u have 90/100 in all the rest of the paper a complete right off 0% on that part does not make any sense .
This is my opinion continuous assessment u would not be penalised to this extent .
That is my only point on this I used my daughters slip up as an example !
Basing ur knowledge to a 3 hour exam on anything u would have to wonder is it correct .
Likewise colleges need to do assessments on suitability of students for certain careers Might carry more weight than just all about cao points system.

mtoutlemonde

Millionaire only not wrote: »

My point here today fair enough u don’t deserve a H1 I’m not that thick . But if u have 90/100 in all the rest of the paper a complete right off 0% on that part does not make any sense .
This is my opinion continuous assessment u would not be penalised to this extent .
That is my only point on this I used my daughters slip up as an example !
Basing ur knowledge to a 3 hour exam on anything u would have to wonder is it correct .
Likewise colleges need to do assessments on suitability of students for certain careers Might carry more weight than just all about cao points system.

Just for your information, I have marked Leaving cert exam papers in a language subject. There are three categories, top, middle and bottom. If a candidate does not answer the question asked, they can never get into the top category. Your remark about 90/100 in every other part doesn't stand up, each component is marked as a single entity. I always compare the written pieces to an interview, if you failed to answer a question, you were being evasive, didn't know the answer or a politician.

km79

And so the fallout continues
https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-leaving-cert-cancelled-5090679-May2020/?utm_source=facebook_short&fbclid=IwAR1RbBFkAVdUjweiB4sYCpnJkK970rtehjR6oJVOsZSSSrf9P1SQcHPeogA

MichAel Healy Rae calling for cancellation now
Journal running a poll
Sigh

Shn99

km79 wrote: »

And so the fallout continues
https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-leaving-cert-cancelled-5090679-May2020/?utm_source=facebook_short&fbclid=IwAR1RbBFkAVdUjweiB4sYCpnJkK970rtehjR6oJVOsZSSSrf9P1SQcHPeogA

MichAel Healy Rae calling for cancellation now
Journal running a poll
Sigh

The Irish second Level student union are running a survey too that theyre going to take to the depaetment..No guesses as to what the most popular option will be

km79

Shn99 wrote: »

The Irish second Level student union are running a survey too that theyre going to take to the depaetment..No guesses as to what the most popular option will be

It’s all started up again now so FFS

Mchugh simply has to come out now and say HOW the exams are going to be run safely . This might help refocus all the students who are now once again clinging onto the cancellation campaign

HOW the two weeks in July are going to be work for teachers and students

And cancel the practicals immediately
Cos they just can not be run in those two weeks . And as mentioned before created an inequity based on choice of practical subject

Would be no harm to clear up what’s happening in June too but that’s less of a priority at the moment

Either way the “roadmap” has created the problems I anticipated as soon as I seen it and heard Leo speak

km79

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2020/0503/1136304-leaving-cert/

Apparently the practicals are/were the focus at the moment. So can expect news Weds I guess. Have a feeling they will be the next piece of the proposal to be scrapped

political analyst

Obviously, predictive grading would be a problem for students who would miss out on places on healthcare courses (medicine, physiotherapy, nursing etc).

Entrance exams could take place for medicine courses, for which the number of candidates would be much lower than the total number of students sitting the Leaving cert.

Predictive grading probably wouldn't be contentious for admission to Arts and Business degree courses, given that the CAO points numbers for them are much lower.

political analyst

randylonghorn wrote: »

Easy for someone who has fecked off to to Dubai to pontificate and get his name in the papers; fall-out won't land in his lap.

Colm Cregan is still qualified to give advice on the matter - I couldn't care less if he was in Timbuktu!

thomasdylan

political analyst wrote: »

Obviously, predictive grading would be a problem for students who would miss out on places on healthcare courses (medicine, physiotherapy, nursing etc).

Entrance exams could take place for medicine courses, for which the number of candidates would be much lower than the total number of students sitting the Leaving cert.

Predictive grading probably wouldn't be contentious for admission to Arts and Business degree courses, given that the CAO points numbers for them are much lower.

And sit separate exams for each of the five medical schools? Will each course and college have separate entrance exams? And who sets the exams and marks them? This is a crazy idea.

The medical schools have already really stepped up, they managed to bring final exams forward months at very short notice to graduate final year students early do that they can start work early.

Millionaire only not

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Just for your information, I have marked Leaving cert exam papers in a language subject. There are three categories, top, middle and bottom. If a candidate does not answer the question asked, they can never get into the top category. Your remark about 90/100 in every other part doesn't stand up, each component is marked as a single entity. I always compare the written pieces to an interview, if you failed to answer a question, you were being evasive, didn't know the answer or a politician.

And the students wonder why they can’t get a mark they more than likely deserve when u have arrogance like that correcting it .

I think I stated I used this as an example to overhaul the leaving cert .

What part do u not understand, she always got a H1 she answered every other part as a H1 mark .

Wrote the essay slightly off from the question but u think it’s fine to mark that essay 0 after 5 years in secondary she’s fluent in Irish by the way, and works her butt off .
So she’s penalised for rest of her days . Makes u wonder about people alright .
There teenagers and make mistakes like everyone else in life so at times u should cut a little slack.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

political analyst wrote: »

Colm Cregan is still qualified to give advice on the matter - I couldn't care less if he was in Timbuktu!

His suggestion in today’s paper is workable for the vast majority of students. Let them choose. The small percentage of students who wish to sit papers can then be easily accommodated in an exam starting in mid/late June.

r93kaey5p2izun

Millionaire only not wrote: »

And the students wonder why they can’t get a mark they more than likely deserve when u have arrogance like that correcting it .

I think I stated I used this as an example to overhaul the leaving cert .

What part do u not understand, she always got a H1 she answered every other part as a H1 mark .

Wrote the essay slightly off from the question but u think it’s fine to mark that essay 0 after 5 years in secondary she’s fluent in Irish by the way, and works her butt off .
So she’s penalised for rest of her days . Makes u wonder about people alright .
There teenagers and make mistakes like everyone else in life so at times u should cut a little slack.

There is no way the essay was marked 0. That is just not credible.

km79

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

His suggestion in today’s paper is workable for the vast majority of students. Let them choose. The small percentage of students who wish to sit papers can then be easily accommodated in an exam starting in mid/late June.

The only thing that is certain is that no students will be sitting exams anywhere in June

deiseindublin

@Millionaire only not - I'm not sure if you understand the overall concept of marking schemes. The MS has the marks allocated individually for each question, and if a student did badly in one section, this brings the average down for every other section.

A H1 could be 91%, so if you go off topic in an essay question, it's both unfortunate and quite likely that this will bring you average down to 79% or, maybe 81%, depending on other questions. If MS were not set out as such, students would just learn off realms of irrelevant essays and regurgitate them on the day.

I hope it didn't effect her college options too much and she's had a good first year in college, despite CV.

Millionaire only not

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

There is no way the essay was marked 0. That is just not credible.

Well it is , How do u think she felt . Teachers no one agreed but fell on deaf ears . I was worse that didn’t issue legal to soften there cough .

Millionaire only not

deiseindublin wrote: »

@Millionaire only not - I'm not sure if you understand the overall concept of marking schemes. The MS has the marks allocated individually for each question, and if a student did badly in one section, this brings the average down for every other section.

A H1 could be 91%, so if you go off topic in an essay question, it's both unfortunate and quite likely that this will bring you average down to 79% or, maybe 81%, depending on other questions. If MS were not set out as such, students would just learn off realms of irrelevant essays and regurgitate them on the day.

I hope it didn't effect her college options too much and she's had a good first year in college, despite CV.

She’s back repeating , has acceptance for English college obviously based on final result which is up in arms now as well . Thanks for your reply

mtoutlemonde

Millionaire only not wrote: »

And the students wonder why they can’t get a mark they more than likely deserve when u have arrogance like that correcting it .

I think I stated I used this as an example to overhaul the leaving cert .

What part do u not understand, she always got a H1 she answered every other part as a H1 mark .

Wrote the essay slightly off from the question but u think it’s fine to mark that essay 0 after 5 years in secondary she’s fluent in Irish by the way, and works her butt off .
So she’s penalised for rest of her days . Makes u wonder about people alright .
There teenagers and make mistakes like everyone else in life so at times u should cut a little slack.

The only arrogance I see here is yourself. If you are not aware, there are marking conferences for every exam prior to marking. The chief examiner and his/her team of advisers make the rules and the examiners follow that otherwise they will not be allowed to continue marking.

Off topic is not correct. What about the H1 student who did understand the question and was awarded what they deserve. The only one at fault here is your daughter - she didn't read the question properly - a good life lesson which she will use to her advantage in university. Like RainbowTrout said, if the marking scheme wasn't there - a candidate could write a whole booklet on anything far from the topic and get awarded top marks - get over yourself. And you say that she is fluent - well obviously not well enough to answer a question correctly. Also candidates are given slack - no attempt at an answer is awarded zero marks - effort gets marks - not answering the question properly - moves down to the middle category because the communication element has not been answered and no matter how good the answer is - they will never reach the top category because the question is not answered properly. I very much doubt that she was awarded zero either.

Mrsmum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If she didn't write a H1 standard paper on the day then she doesn't deserve a H1. It's that simple. You are graded on what you write on the paper. By your own admission she read the question wrong and didn't answer what she was asked. She is being graded on the the answer to the question, not on what she writes. If we were to grade all Leaving Cert papers on that basis, we just wouldn't bother putting any questions on it except 'You have three hours to write whatever you want about this subject'.

It's a harsh lesson to learn, but read the question. I've had a number of students over the years who've missed out on higher grades because they didn't read the question correctly, and when we go to view the paper they always start out with 'but I wrote 2 pages for that answer' and my reply is always 'but you didn't answer what you were asked, sorry'.

I think maybe Millionaire's point is broader than that. I get that teachers are very anti predictive grades and lots of teachers here have given examples of pupils they would disadvantage or advantage those who don't deserve it. Perfectly valid examples but given as if the L.C exams are a perfect measuring tool, that there aren't equally loads of people that didn't do as well as they, their teachers know those students are capable of. Because in reality the terminal L.C. exam is just not a foolproof means of sorting the wheat from the chaff either. A bright diligent student producing great work in 5th and 6th year reading the exam question slightly wrong and well that's just too bad. I mean even before Covid, students on the big day can be sick, dealing with family troubles, bereaved, react badly to nerves, too overwhelmed to perform well, read the question slightly wrong and adding lack of school time to that this year a whole other set of students disadvantaged. We as a country have accepted the terminal L.C. as the best of the options available but let's not pretend it is fair to the back bone.

r93kaey5p2izun

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Well it is , How do u think she felt . Teachers no one agreed but fell on deaf ears . I was worse that didn’t issue legal to soften there cough .

Only 20 out of 100 marks go for the subject content or topic of the essay. 80 is for the accuracy of the Irish used. It is just not credible that she got 0 except through a marking error which could be appealed.

Random sample

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

Only 20 out of 100 marks go for the subject content or topic of the essay. 80 is for the accuracy of the Irish used. It is just not credible that she got 0 except through a marking error which could be appealed.

0 for subject means 0 for language though. If they managed 10 for subject, the language is marked out of 40 instead of 80.

Millionaire only not

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

Only 20 out of 100 marks go for the subject content or topic of the essay. 80 is for the accuracy of the Irish used. It is just not credible that she got 0 except through a marking error which could be appealed.

That’s what I thought as well as I mean she should have been allowed some marks . but her teacher and mother dealt with it , I’m not drawing it up again to she’s stressed enough for this one .
Someone comment today might have wrote in past rather than present tense? I’m not a teacher so I’ll leave it for the experts . By the ways she still got 520 but not enough for what she wants

Millionaire only not

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think maybe Millionaire's point is broader than that. I get that teachers are very anti predictive grades and lots of teachers here have given examples of pupils they would disadvantage or advantage those who don't deserve it. Perfectly valid examples but given as if the L.C exams are a perfect measuring tool, that there aren't equally loads of people that didn't do as well as they, their teachers know those students are capable of. Because in reality the terminal L.C. exam is just not a foolproof means of sorting the wheat from the chaff either. A bright diligent student producing great work in 5th and 6th year reading the exam question slightly wrong and well that's just too bad. I mean even before Covid, students on the big day can be sick, dealing with family troubles, bereaved, react badly to nerves, too overwhelmed to perform well, read the question slightly wrong and adding lack of school time to that this year a whole other set of students disadvantaged. We as a country have accepted the terminal L.C. as the best of the options available but let's not pretend it is fair to the back bone.

Finally someone gets it -Thks

r93kaey5p2izun

Random sample wrote: »

0 for subject means 0 for language though. If they managed 10 for subject, the language is marked out of 40 instead of 80.

Yes, but the claim is it was only marginally off the topic, not completely different.

And I totally get why the marking is done that way as otherwise they would just regurgitate a perfect essay on any old topic and take a mere 20 mark hit.

paddybarry

Millionaire only not wrote: »

She’s back repeating , has acceptance for English college obviously based on final result which is up in arms now as well . Thanks for your reply

Best of luck to her.

Millionaire only not

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

Only 20 out of 100 marks go for the subject content or topic of the essay. 80 is for the accuracy of the Irish used. It is just not credible that she got 0 except through a marking error which could be appealed.

Just to clear it up , she was awarded 0 on original result and 15 marks on appeal. 5 marks for theme and 20% for her Irish . And from what I am told it was this was done to a lot of students in the Irish last year . She interpreted the question wrong so live with the consequences I guess .

political analyst

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think maybe Millionaire's point is broader than that. I get that teachers are very anti predictive grades and lots of teachers here have given examples of pupils they would disadvantage or advantage those who don't deserve it. Perfectly valid examples but given as if the L.C exams are a perfect measuring tool, that there aren't equally loads of people that didn't do as well as they, their teachers know those students are capable of. Because in reality the terminal L.C. exam is just not a foolproof means of sorting the wheat from the chaff either. A bright diligent student producing great work in 5th and 6th year reading the exam question slightly wrong and well that's just too bad. I mean even before Covid, students on the big day can be sick, dealing with family troubles, bereaved, react badly to nerves, too overwhelmed to perform well, read the question slightly wrong and adding lack of school time to that this year a whole other set of students disadvantaged. We as a country have accepted the terminal L.C. as the best of the options available but let's not pretend it is fair to the back bone.

It's as if most LC students don't know there is another way of getting to do courses for which they have to get around 500 points - there is the option of doing a course in something else with a lower number of points and then working for a few years and then doing the courses they want to do as mature students. It doesn't kill to wait for another few years.

CrabRevolution

political analyst wrote: »

It's as if most LC students don't know there is another way of getting to do courses for which they have to get around 500 points - there is the option of doing a course in something else with a lower number of points and then working for a few years and then doing the courses they want to do as mature students. It doesn't kill to wait for another few years.

That sounds like far far more work and time than simply repeating the leaving cert.

Rosita

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think maybe Millionaire's point is broader than that. I get that teachers are very anti predictive grades and lots of teachers here have given examples of pupils they would disadvantage or advantage those who don't deserve it. Perfectly valid examples but given as if the L.C exams are a perfect measuring tool, that there aren't equally loads of people that didn't do as well as they, their teachers know those students are capable of. Because in reality the terminal L.C. exam is just not a foolproof means of sorting the wheat from the chaff either. A bright diligent student producing great work in 5th and 6th year reading the exam question slightly wrong and well that's just too bad. I mean even before Covid, students on the big day can be sick, dealing with family troubles, bereaved, react badly to nerves, too overwhelmed to perform well, read the question slightly wrong and adding lack of school time to that this year a whole other set of students disadvantaged. We as a country have accepted the terminal L.C. as the best of the options available but let's not pretend it is fair to the back bone.

But a student being sick or having family troubles does not make the Leaving Cert unfair. It just makes the child unfortunate.

As for a student reading a question slightly wrong......ah come on... part of the skill in a written LC exam is whether you comprehend a question and have the vocabulary and knowledge to answer the question asked. It is just as likely that a student who "reads a question slightly wrong" (and Irish essay questions tend to be short and succinct) is chancing their arm and writing lots of stuff they know in hope of picking up marks because they simply lack the ammunition to deal with the question with precision.

As has been pointed out, in the Irish paper marking scheme, the essay is indeed marked 80% for language but unless the criteria for dealing with the question asked is initially fulfilled of course this 80% will fall like a stone. If that wasn't the case someone could go in and write on any topic they like for 80% of the marks. A student who's bluffing will have the words "not ad rem" all over the paper. There is massive scope to interpret essay titles but a H1 essay needs to hit everything on the bullseye.

I have read a fair few LC scripts students have been reviewing over the years. Never have I seen an essay where the mark was not reasonable. Students are not always the most informed and objective judges of their own.

They do make bad judgements. One year I reviewed a script for a student who had written two essays. I imagine they left the exam thinking they had set the paper on fire. Problem was the two essays were of a similar standard. Had the student added even one meaningful paragraph more to the first essay he might have gotten over the line and not ended on a D1 as it was then. (You don't hear much about C3/D1 students on the Internet - they're always H1/H2 merchants) Instead he wrote for an hour for no benefit. It was his bad call. Not his teacher's, not the examiner's, not the LC's. An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.