Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

CrabRevolution

Rosita wrote: »

An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.

I'm not a teacher, just a lurker around here but this really nails it.
I know it's a sign you're getting old to say the young are getting soft (and I'm not that old). But even trying to factor for that bias, it really does seem to me that kids are being told that it's wrong to ever feel under pressure or out of your comfort zone in any capacity whatsoever.

The entire point of exams is to determine how good you are at that exam, and if the exam is well designed it will demonstrate how good you are at a given topic. Naturally most people will feel pressure from this to do their best. This isn't a bad thing, and the best way to counter it is to get used to it and prepare to the best of your abilities.

Instead though it seems to me that students are being told that if you're feeling pressure something must be wrong and someone else must be at fault and have to change what they're doing to suit you. As well as that we're fostering an acceptance that if something is challenging or difficult that it's perfectly OK to just not do it but expect the same outcome. There seems to be lots of anecdotes of "Student failed to do as they were asked, but deserve top marks anyway because of their feelings".

Again, this may seem like an old man yells at cloud diatribe, but this thread just backs up what I've been seeing.

On the main topic, I'd be curious to see the results if they went with predicted grades. Mark inflation would probably hit record levels and it'd get very tight at the top for competitive courses.

Millionaire only not

Rosita wrote: »

But a student being sick or having family troubles does not make the Leaving Cert unfair. It just makes the child unfortunate.

As for a student reading a question slightly wrong......ah come on... part of the skill in a written LC exam is whether you comprehend a question and have the vocabulary and knowledge to answer the question asked. It is just as likely that a student who "reads a question slightly wrong" (and Irish essay questions tend to be short and succinct) is chancing their arm and writing lots of stuff they know in hope of picking up marks because they simply lack the ammunition to deal with the question with precision.

As has been pointed out, in the Irish paper marking scheme, the essay is indeed marked 80% for language but unless the criteria for dealing with the question asked is initially fulfilled of course this 80% will fall like a stone. If that wasn't the case someone could go in and write on any topic they like for 80% of the marks. A student who's bluffing will have the words "not ad rem" all over the paper. There is massive scope to interpret essay titles but a H1 essay needs to hit everything on the bullseye.

I have read a fair few LC scripts students have been reviewing over the years. Never have I seen an essay where the mark was not reasonable. Students are not always the most informed and objective judges of their own.

They do make bad judgements. One year I reviewed a script for a student who had written two essays. I imagine they left the exam thinking they had set the paper on fire. Problem was the two essays were of a similar standard. Had the student added even one meaningful paragraph more to the first essay he might have gotten over the line and not ended on a D1 as it was then. (You don't hear much about C3/D1 students on the Internet - they're always H1/H2 merchants) Instead he wrote for an hour for no benefit. It was his bad call. Not his teacher's, not the examiner's, not the LC's. An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.

The answers today are mostly constructive and thank boardies however a couple people have responded telling us they have corrected papers . Reading the above it is totally a view the exam against student . Wait for the cock up and we’ll punish u .

Just for your information, I have marked Leaving cert exam papers in a language subject. There are three categories, top, middle and bottom. If a candidate does not answer the question asked, they can never get into the top category. Your remark about 90/100 in every other part doesn't stand up, each component is marked as a single entity. I always compare the written pieces to an interview, if you failed to answer a question, you were being evasive, didn't know the answer or a politician.

The above came from another examiner Mtoultemonde and again launch attack and I quote if u fail to answer the question you are being evasive u Didn’t know the answer.

I would like to think a examiner may look at the overall paper and if u were an A student in every part surly something went amiss here . But as our rosita poster has said we’re waiting for the stress to get u .

. An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.

this enforces my point today is it time to ditch this examination or at least partially . Let the people reading these posts make up there own mind on the above Examiners reply’s . God help the teenagers is all I say

man_no_plan

I think that there is a point that is being missed here about predicting grades based on previous results etc.

There is no room for improvement for the student.

Very often students disimsprove in house exams over class tests as.
Very often it will be seen that students improve from their mocks.

The differences are caused by a couple of factors. Firstly, I think we can accept, that performing well on a topic where material is fresh and recently learned, limited in scope and usually about 30-40 minutes duration. Take it to a two hour exam, say at christmas, particularly in 5th year, and the reality of what being a Leaving Certificate student means suddenly can dawn on students.

In the mocks situation the fact that all material may not be covered, that the mock imitates the real exam in length and in toughness on the student - academically and physically/emotionally there is a very strong chance that students will not achieve their potential.

The other point to make about exams other than the State Exams is that they are formative. The LC is summative. Anyone who has done aCP meeting on assessment will tell you that . There is learning in doing house exams and mocks etc. and in the aftermath. The LC is the end if the road.

I think that the idea thag you can take mock results and magic them into LC results is fanciful at best. I also think that and schem to add a % improvement to all students is inherently unfair.

You cannot tell by how much any student will improve. What the chawing mammy and daddy give him will do for the grades. What the sudden realisation that the plan isn't working will do- i have seen it go both ways. And you'd be surprised at who goes which way sometimes.

To finish where I started, and I hope I'm making sense, any average of any set of grades that aren't 100% automatically denies the candidate the chance to obtain full marks.

A poor Christmas test where they got 40% having been ill for a month, missing two optional topics that they might never 'need' to know for example, even with three other 100% exams that candidate can only get 85% when averaged. And that would be doing well.

The system we have is very capable if coming up with a fair and equitable way of dealing with this. It needs time. It needs the media and politicians to keep out. I think its laughable to talk about stress on students and families and then call for cancellation in the absence a plan or print article after article full of speculation and opinion.

The state exams are well run, well trusted and fair, lets see what they come up with.

r93kaey5p2izun

Millionaire only not wrote:

I would like to think a examiner may look at the overall paper and if u were an A student in every part surly something went amiss here.

The examiner does not have that discretion. It is determined by the marking scheme.

Millionaire only not

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

The examiner does not have that discretion. It is determined by the marking scheme.

U see that wasn’t hard to be nice about it and u explained it in one line - Thks

Treppen

Millionaire only not wrote: »

U see that wasn’t hard to be nice about it and u explained it in one line - Thks

Eh? You though examiners could ignore questions that were answered incorrectly and just give em the grade they got for other questions??

Given the push for predictive grading you can really see the unrealistic expectations parents will have.

CrabRevolution

Millionaire only not wrote: »

The answers today are mostly constructive and thank boardies however a couple people have responded telling us they have corrected papers . Reading the above it is totally a view the exam against student . Wait for the cock up and we’ll punish u .

Just for your information, I have marked Leaving cert exam papers in a language subject. There are three categories, top, middle and bottom. If a candidate does not answer the question asked, they can never get into the top category. Your remark about 90/100 in every other part doesn't stand up, each component is marked as a single entity. I always compare the written pieces to an interview, if you failed to answer a question, you were being evasive, didn't know the answer or a politician.

The above came from another examiner Mtoultemonde and again launch attack and I quote if u fail to answer the question you are being evasive u Didn’t know the answer.

I would like to think a examiner may look at the overall paper and if u were an A student in every part surly something went amiss here . But as our rosita poster has said we’re waiting for the stress to get u .

. An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.

this enforces my point today is it time to ditch this examination or at least partially . Let the people reading these posts make up there own mind on the above Examiners reply’s . God help the teenagers is all I say

What would the point be in an exam where (as you're suggesting) the results are disregarded when they don't conform to a preconceived result?

I would hope an examiner doesn't just ignore a student's failings and give an incorrectly inflated mark because they've a hunch.

One of the LC's greatest strengths is how rigid and unpersonal it is. Examiners don't know who you are or how much of a good student you normally are or perceive yourself to be. They only see what you have down on the paper, and the marking scheme that they will apply to everyone in the interests of fairness. Giving students full marks for answering a question wrong defeats the purpose of exams.

political analyst

CrabRevolution wrote: »

That sounds like far far more work and time than simply repeating the leaving cert.

It's more manageable because the workload would be spread out over a longer period.

political analyst

thomasdylan wrote: »

And sit separate exams for each of the five medical schools? Will each course and college have separate entrance exams? And who sets the exams and marks them? This is a crazy idea.

The medical schools have already really stepped up, they managed to bring final exams forward months at very short notice to graduate final year students early do that they can start work early.

Why?

Getting 500 to 600 points does not necessarily mean being fit for a career in medicine, i.e. bedside manner. An entrance exam would resolve that issue.

deiseindublin

Millionaire only not wrote: »

U see that wasn’t hard to be nice about it and u explained it in one line - Thks

I think you're taking this a bit personally.

I explained, I thought politely, about marking schemes on the previous page.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113338943&postcount=887

thomasdylan

political analyst wrote: »

Why?

Getting 500 to 600 points does not necessarily mean being fit for a career in medicine, i.e. bedside manner. An entrance exam would resolve that issue.

What kind of entrance exam? A 3 hour exam to assess suitability for a career in medicine plus a bit of academics?

r93kaey5p2izun

political analyst wrote: »

Why?

Getting 500 to 600 points does not necessarily mean being fit for a career in medicine, i.e. bedside manner. An entrance exam would resolve that issue.

You mean, like the HPAT? Which has been gamed by the grinds courses as much any other exam.

Millionaire only not

Treppen wrote: »

Eh? You though examiners could ignore questions that were answered incorrectly and just give em the grade they got for other questions??

Given the push for predictive grading you can really see the unrealistic expectations parents will have.

I never said that , that’s your interpretation .
I’m not repeating myself omg there is some people just plain

mtoutlemonde

deiseindublin wrote: »

I think you're taking this a bit personally.

I explained, I thought politely, about marking schemes on the previous page.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113338943&postcount=887

So did I and RaindbowTrout. He was the one being ignorant. He has been told the same thing now about five times. Oh how I would love to be predictive grading his daughter - I think he'd be camped outside the school (And some people are as thick as it as well)

mtoutlemonde

deiseindublin wrote: »

I think you're taking this a bit personally.

I explained, I thought politely, about marking schemes on the previous page.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113338943&postcount=887

So did I and RaindbowTrout. He was the one being ignorant. He has been told the same thing now about five times. I have been examining for the SEC for the past ten years and he is the one who questions me and tells me I have an attitude and doesn't know how to reply to my comment but a childish comment to another poster. Oh how I would love to be predictive grading his daughter - I think he'd be camped outside the school (And some people are as thick as it as well)

rainbowtrout

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Well it is , How do u think she felt . Teachers no one agreed but fell on deaf ears . I was worse that didn’t issue legal to soften there cough .

Ugh... you're one of those:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


This is why we don't have predictive grades.

Millionaire only not

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

So did I and RaindbowTrout. He was the one being ignorant. He has been told the same thing now about five times. I have been examining for the SEC for the past ten years and he is the one who questions me and tells me I have an attitude and doesn't know how to reply to my comment but a childish comment to another poster. Oh how I would love to be predictive grading his daughter - I think he'd be camped outside the school (And some people are as thick as it as well)

Do u see how vicious u are .
I’m the one marking papers with 10 years what would u know attitude.
I didn’t question u I have a situation and ye gave your answers of which I’m quiet happy with as I can now see what there up against.
how could u be impartial marking a paper , u sound so troubled .
Your like one in life in such misery your determined to make every else’s . Good luck
By the way she wants to do her exam . U might get to correct it .

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think maybe Millionaire's point is broader than that. I get that teachers are very anti predictive grades and lots of teachers here have given examples of pupils they would disadvantage or advantage those who don't deserve it. Perfectly valid examples but given as if the L.C exams are a perfect measuring tool, that there aren't equally loads of people that didn't do as well as they, their teachers know those students are capable of. Because in reality the terminal L.C. exam is just not a foolproof means of sorting the wheat from the chaff either. A bright diligent student producing great work in 5th and 6th year reading the exam question slightly wrong and well that's just too bad. I mean even before Covid, students on the big day can be sick, dealing with family troubles, bereaved, react badly to nerves, too overwhelmed to perform well, read the question slightly wrong and adding lack of school time to that this year a whole other set of students disadvantaged. We as a country have accepted the terminal L.C. as the best of the options available but let's not pretend it is fair to the back bone.

Millionaire's daughter according to himself was asked to write an essay on what the government has done for Ireland. Not what the government will do in the future. The question would have required an essay written in the past tense. She would presumably have written it in the future tense.

He says she read the question wrong, and we can take that at face value. An examiner can only mark what is written on the page in front of them, which was most likely an essay written in the wrong tense. Couldn't obviously comment on content.


Students or adults doing any exam can have a whole heap of things going on in their lives. It's not just the leaving cert, it's college exams, professional exams for something like law or accounting, driving tests, entrance into civil service, joining the guards.

Examiners in any situation can only grade on the work done during the day in the exam. It's not the X-factor where the best sob story gets the most votes. You are graded on the work you do in the exam. If she didn't read the question correctly that's her fault not the examiners. Why should she be given a sympathy mark if all the other students who did the question managed to read it and answer it correctly? It's a harsh lesson to learn, but students are told over and over again to read the questions carefully and check over their paper before they leave the exam hall.

mtoutlemonde

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Do u see how vicious u are .
I’m the one marking papers with 10 years what would u know attitude.
I didn’t question u I have a situation and ye gave your answers of which I’m quiet happy with as I can now see what there up against.
how could u be impartial marking a paper , u sound so troubled .
Your like one in life in such misery your determined to make every else’s . Good luck
By the way she wants to do her exam . U might get to correct it .

I'm not at all troubled or vicious. I simply pointed out how exams were marked and that didn't suit you - it's that simple.

The reason I mention the ten years marking, if I didn't do a good job - I wouldn't be there - simple as that.

As already mentioned, one of the best things in this country is the impartiality of the JC and LC - you correct what is front of you - no excuses - the only exception is where there are waivers.

Best of luck to your daughter - she already has 40% - be happy.

I don't teach Irish though

rainbowtrout

Millionaire only not wrote: »

I would like to think a examiner may look at the overall paper and if u were an A student in every part surly something went amiss here . But as our rosita poster has said we’re waiting for the stress to get u .

So what you're saying is 'my daughter got an A in most sections so the examiner should have said 'ah shure go on give her the H1'

The grade she gets is based on her overall cumulative mark across the paper and oral and aural.

I've been marking for 19 years (not in languages), and have often seen papers where the student has answers close to full marks on every question and then you come to one question and they do poorly. And they lose enough marks so their overall mark ends up in the H2 category (still very good) instead of H1. And that's just the way it is. If they were a H1 student the last question would have been as good as the rest of their paper. I'd include some of my own students in that cohort. One of my own got a mark equivalent to 88% last year. Went through their paper, obviously it was a very good paper, but they made silly mistakes on some answers... enough to drop below 90%. There was no case for a H1.

Millionaire only not

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Millionaire's daughter according to himself was asked to write an essay on what the government has done for Ireland. Not what the government will do in the future. The question would have required an essay written in the past tense. She would presumably have written it in the future tense.

He says she read the question wrong, and we can take that at face value. An examiner can only mark what is written on the page in front of them, which was most likely an essay written in the wrong tense. Couldn't obviously comment on content.


Students or adults doing any exam can have a whole heap of things going on in their lives. It's not just the leaving cert, it's college exams, professional exams for something like law or accounting, driving tests, entrance into civil service, joining the guards.

Examiners in any situation can only grade on the work done during the day in the exam. It's not the X-factor where the best sob story gets the most votes. You are graded on the work you do in the exam. If she didn't read the question correctly that's her fault not the examiners. Why should she be given a sympathy mark if all the other students who did the question managed to read it and answer it correctly? It's a harsh lesson to learn, but students are told over and over again to read the questions carefully and check over their paper before they leave the exam hall.

Yes I think u said that earlier which is quiet acceptable as an answer thank you very much . There was no one looking for favours or sob stories. My point was it must have deserved some mark but as u have pointed out past and future may have been it’s downfall.
The only reason I brought it down was continuous assessment a better way forward .
So are we all clear ?

Millionaire only not

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So what you're saying is 'my daughter got an A in most sections so the examiner should have said 'ah shure go on give her the H1'

The grade she gets is based on her overall cumulative mark across the paper and oral and aural.

I've been marking for 19 years (not in languages), and have often seen papers where the student has answers close to full marks on every question and then you come to one question and they do poorly. And they lose enough marks so their overall mark ends up in the H2 category (still very good) instead of H1. And that's just the way it is. If they were a H1 student the last question would have been as good as the rest of their paper.

Yes well I agree with u 100% in our case it went from H1 to H3 . I know for all her papers she would have expected her H1 but she messed up and that was that .
In her defence she was not a million miles off the question and in all honesty must have deserved some mark . Now if your saying I’m wrong then why did they slightly improve the mark all be it 15 marks for that question.
Now I’m not a lawyer but I’d safely take a bet when your wrong how wrong are u ?
Just to finish with comments like today
1- part of the task to see how students have judgement and nerve under stress
2-comments like I’m 10 years marking papers , who am I to question u .

Now we’ll beg to differ how we access children for there future careers, but remember there teenagers without mistakes in life doing there best.

Millionaire only not

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I'm not at all troubled or vicious. I simply pointed out how exams were marked and that didn't suit you - it's that simple.

The reason I mention the ten years marking, if I didn't do a good job - I wouldn't be there - simple as that.

As already mentioned, one of the best things in this country is the impartiality of the JC and LC - you correct what is front of you - no excuses - the only exception is where there are waivers.

Best of luck to your daughter - she already has 40% - be happy.

I don't teach Irish though

She was quiet happy to do her orals , she had her 40% last year too .

mirrorwall14

Back on topic with more media coverage this morning about plan B

‘Plan B’ for Leaving Cert exams under active consideration
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plan-b-for-leaving-cert-exams-under-active-consideration-1.4244118

Rosita

Millionaire only not wrote: »

She was quiet happy to do her orals , she had her 40% last year too .

How do you know what her mark was in the oral last year? I'm an LC oral examiner confidentiality of marks is very strict.

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Back on topic with more media coverage this morning about plan B

‘Plan B’ for Leaving Cert exams under active consideration
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plan-b-for-leaving-cert-exams-under-active-consideration-1.4244118

This is exactly what I feared would happen
Some mess now
I wonder was plan b even being considered before the media pressure
Or has it is being formulated in direct response to it?

All I know is once again this has made the job of LC teachers and indeed their parents much more difficult. Some are going to latch on to this again and become unfocused and unmotivated .
And before I get a lecture on July 29th still being there I am aware of this
I am also aware of the dealings I’ve had over the last few weeks with LC students and parents and the effect loose statements from politicians and subsequent media coverage has had .

Everyone needs clarity now . On the operation of Plan A first and foremost. If people can see that actually workable it will calm the calls for predicted grades somewhat
If not then they have a problem and I Hope Plan B involves more than just getting the teachers to predict grades !

Millionaire only not

Rosita wrote: »

How do you know what her mark was in the oral last year? I'm an LC oral examiner confidentiality of marks is very strict.

We are quiet aware of your qualifications, who am I to question your judgement.
What was u said yesterday,
An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.

Let the people here make up there own mind on the attitude of the examiner’s answers .!

bren2001

km79 wrote: »

This is exactly what I feared would happen
Some mess now
I wonder was plan b even being considered before the media pressure
Or has it is being formulated in direct response to it?

All I know is once again this has made the job of LC teachers and indeed their parents much more difficult. Some are going to latch on to this again and become unfocused and unmotivated .
And before I get a lecture on July 29th still being there I am aware of this
I am also aware of the dealings I’ve had over the last few weeks with LC students and parents and the effect loose statements from politicians and subsequent media coverage has had .

Everyone needs clarity now . On the operation of Plan A first and foremost. If people can see that actually workable it will calm the calls for predicted grades somewhat
If not then they have a problem and I Hope Plan B involves more than just getting the teachers to predict grades !

Considering you take issue with every press release and every newspaper article makes your job harder, what's your solution? Run the exams? Predictive grading? No college next year?

Rosita

As was pointed out here by a few people the other day the government was very sloppy in not referencing the LC in that statement. I would assume that a Plan B would be part of any discussion but a poorly configured statement has brought that to the fore. Prof Gary Murphy of DCU said yesterday on Radio 1 that they had been advised that under proposed social distancing they had been advised that a 240 seat lecture theatre could hold only 24 people. If that's a general guide (as distinct from DCU's own supposition) then it's hard to imagine any LC taking place and even harder to imagine the school scenario in September not being chaotic and largely on-line based still.

Purefrank128

km79 wrote: »

... the effect of loose statements...

... I Hope Plan B involves more than just getting the teachers to predict grades...

!