Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

km79

I expect practicals to be canceled after this evening meeting as the first step in the process

km79

So
This must have Been the plan all along right ?
It must have been Cos we were assured here that there was no need to panic . The plan was being worked on .The proposal was not hasty , poorly thought out or just giving in to media pressure

Let’s see what remains of the proposal after the consultation process
Not a lot will be my guess

deiseindublin

Stop jumping the gun km79, wait for the announcement. I have to say though, I don't know what outcome you actually want from this whole fiasco, but you don't seem happy.

I actually don't know why we can't wait for June as was previously announced. It seems media pressure and LV loose talk has everybody up in arms all over again.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

Stop jumping the gun km79, wait for the announcement. I have to say though, I don't know what outcome you actually want from this whole fiasco, but you don't seem happy.

I actually don't know why we can't wait for June as was previously announced. It seems media pressure and LV loose talk has everybody up in arms all over again.

I wanted them to wait until they had consulted with everyone properly before putting forward any "proposal". Instead they bowed to media pressure and ruined our Easter holidays with an unworkable proposal without any consultation with the people on the ground
That is where my frustration lies

Mardy Bum

5th year exams or mocks CANNOT be used for predictive grades and anyone suggesting they should is clueless.

Rosita

deiseindublin wrote: »

I actually don't know why we can't wait for June as was previously announced. It seems media pressure and LV loose talk has everybody up in arms all over again.

I think because people realise that the current scenario regarding infection spread has been achieved only through closing down most places where people gather and huge numbers staying indoors most of the time. That creates a context for looking ahead and the LC or any such gathering looks a dicey prospect in August.

Varadker's failure to take the very obvious opportunity to reassure people about the LC when he mentioned schools the other day naturally gave rise to this reaction. People won't stop expressing opinions just to suit government timetables.

There a more cynical angle where it could be inferred that the government chose to delay until June to unveil their LC timetable as they knew the chances were they would be pulling the plug but wanted to keep everyone "engaged" until the end of the school year.

It would have taken about twenty minutes to issue a timetable of one exam a day over the month of August yet they chose not to do so. If they'd done that they'd have had more credibility and might have held their position longer. Varadker's silence on a key issue at a key moment was just the last straw.

mirrorwall14

Rosita wrote: »

I think because people realise that the current scenario regarding infection spread has been achieved only through closing down most places where people gather and huge numbers staying indoors most of the time. That creates a context for looking ahead and the LC or any such gathering looks a dicey prospect in August.

Varadker's failure to take the very obvious opportunity to reassure people about the LC when he mentioned schools the other day naturally gave rise to this reaction. People won't stop expressing opinions just to suit government timetables.

There a more cynical angle where it could be inferred that the government chose to delay until June to unveil their LC timetable as they knew the chances were they would be pulling the plug but wanted to keep everyone "engaged" until the end of the school year.

It would have taken about twenty minutes to issue a timetable of one exam a day over the month of August yet they chose not to do so. If they'd done that they'd have had more credibility and might have held their position longer. Varadker's silence on a key issue at a key moment was just the last straw.

I believe its this. They were waiting for the right balance If they jumped too early to cancelling then midway through May everyone would have started with the "we should have ran it", "the kids are doing nothing because they cancelled too soon" etc etc. They needed to get parents and students and teachers all behind cancelling it. They're reaching that tipping point now where its the "reasonable" course of action in light of the current circumstances.

My only concern now is that we have to be able to add on. I mark hard. My students sit full on exam questions from Christmas of Sixth year. They outperform their house exams and mocks and this year we weren't finished the course when they did the mocks. So if they are given any sort of average of those grades it will underestimate them

Midlife

Mardy Bum wrote: »

5th year exams or mocks CANNOT be used for predictive grades and anyone suggesting they should is clueless.

I'd argue they can provided there's a back-up.

Take say the mocks and start adding a figure up to 15% depending on what result they achieved.

If someone's in the 30s or 40s they get 15% extra, if they were in 50s or 60s, maybe 10% etc.

Then if they're not happy, sit the exams.

if they are happy, they're done though.

Dylan94

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

My only concern now is that we have to be able to add on. I mark hard. My students sit full on exam questions from Christmas of Sixth year. They outperform their house exams and mocks and this year we weren't finished the course when they did the mocks. So if they are given any sort of average of those grades it will underestimate them

This is what I am worried about. I give students very difficult exams and often mark quite harshly. We also were not nearly finished the course when they done their mocks. Many of my students failed the mock exam (that I corrected). But I know that they would have done much better in the real exam. There is one student that I would be very confident that they would achieve an H1, who if we were to use the data already held would result in him getting maybe H5

mirrorwall14

Dylan94 wrote: »

This is what I am worried about. I give students very difficult exams and often mark quite harshly. We also were not nearly finished the course when they done their mocks. Many of my students failed the mock exam (that I corrected). But I know that they would have done much better in the real exam. There is one student that I would be very confident that they would achieve an H1, who if we were to use the data already held would result in him getting maybe H5

Three of us did a lot of excel work on spreadsheets at the weekend on our HL maths Juniors cohort finding a formula that worked. In the end we are looking at 50%Mock+50%Xmas+15% on top. Everything else we tried was under doing it by a decent margin-far higher fails, far less A's. Even if we assumed they all got 20% in a summer assessment and did 40/40 with the mock/christmas it wasn't benefitting the top students enough. Just have to convince management now.

alroley

My 6th year mocks were marked very badly - several of them were not awarded marks where they obviously should have been. I didn't adjust the marks as I wanted to avoid any complacency, but regretting that now if these results are to be used.

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

. Just have to convince management now.

I would assume there'll be guidelines as to how these will be arrived at. In fact it's likely the union will look for minimal teacher involvement.

Comer1

Midlife wrote: »

I'd argue they can provided there's a back-up.

Take say the mocks and start adding a figure up to 15% depending on what result they achieved.

If someone's in the 30s or 40s they get 15% extra, if they were in 50s or 60s, maybe 10% etc.

Then if they're not happy, sit the exams.

if they are happy, they're done though.

How to you account for the people who cheated on the mocks? The ones who saw the paper beforehand, the ones who cogged during the exam while the supervising teacher marked their own mocks, or the students who went to the loo and checked something on their phones?

How do you account for the two maths exams that varied so much in difficulty?

When I think back over the past few years, I would have gotten quite a few wrong by a grade, both underestimating and overestimating some. I can't use fifth year exams because some students have dropped back to OL since then.

If I have to give predicted grades, I may as well pull them out of my @rse.

Purefrank128

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Three of us did a lot of excel work on spreadsheets at the weekend on our HL maths cohort finding a formula that worked. In the end we are looking at 50%Mock+50%Xmas+15% on top. Everything else we tried was under doing it by a decent margin-far higher fails, far less A's. Even if we assumed they all got 20% in a summer assessment and did 40/40 with the mock/christmas it wasn't benefitting the top students enough. Just have to convince management now.

People need to calm down a lot and not get ahead of themselves. Currently, the idea of predictive grades being used has no standing with the SEC, DES or government.

Even if some school-based ranking of students was to be used (as a fallback in case the LC can't go ahead on July 29th) that is not the same as simply using results from previous, non-sanctioned exams and applying the sort of mathematical rubric you are suggesting.

"Just have to convince management now." WTF? No, you just have to convince students, parents, teachers, government and (later) high court judges that your "plan" has any coherence whatsoever.

The purpose of house exams, including mocks, is not to give students an assessment in their achievement in a syllabus. They have many other purposes, but summative assessment is not one of them.

Calm down. July 29 is a long time away.

joe40

This is just a thought, but something I'm curious about.
Presumably pupils themselves apply for courses that they would consider to be "within reach" based on previous year results so there is a certain amount of self selection.
I wonder if every pupil was just awarded their 1st or 2nd CAO choice, what would the figures be like.
Basically how over subscribed are courses every year?
Would it be possible make the places available as a once off.
For highly subscribed courses like medicine,. Interviews could be used. This is already part of the selection process in UK colleges.

ethical

I imagine that there will be more places available in 3rd level this year for Irish students due to the fact that overseas students will be less due to the pandemic.

Bobtheman

At this stage I'm zoning out of this as it seems to change week to week. Your Principals will email you when there is something of note. The media speculation is just that-speculation.
Actually, I think the less you listen to the news the better.

Treppen

Comer1 wrote: »

How to you account for the people who cheated on the mocks? The ones who saw the paper beforehand, the ones who cogged during the exam while the supervising teacher marked their own mocks, or the students who went to the loo and checked something on their phones?

How do you account for the two maths exams that varied so much in difficulty?

When I think back over the past few years, I would have gotten quite a few wrong by a grade, both underestimating and overestimating some. I can't use fifth year exams because some students have dropped back to OL since then.

If I have to give predicted grades, I may as well pull them out of my @rse.

I'm not being sarcastic (for a change) but given the circumstances of inconsistent mocks etc. I think if teachers are to engage with predictive grades, pulling a complete grade out of their own @r53 would be far more consistent than pulling it out of anywhere else.

I definitely think the writing is on the wall though.

mtoutlemonde

Emma O'Kelly on one o clock news, exams are to go ahead as planned. Today's meeting is discussing running of exams, transportation etc.

mirrorwall14

Purefrank128 wrote: »

People need to calm down a lot and not get ahead of themselves. Currently, the idea of predictive grades being used has no standing with the SEC, DES or government.

Even if some school-based ranking of students was to be used (as a fallback in case the LC can't go ahead on July 29th) that is not the same as simply using results from previous, non-sanctioned exams and applying the sort of mathematical rubric you are suggesting.

"Just have to convince management now." WTF? No, you just have to convince students, parents, teachers, government and (later) high court judges that your "plan" has any coherence whatsoever.

The purpose of house exams, including mocks, is not to give students an assessment in their achievement in a syllabus. They have many other purposes, but summative assessment is not one of them.

Calm down. July 29 is a long time away.

Calm down yourself. That was for our junior certs. I forgot like one word in the post which I would have thought have been a given since I was mentioning summer assessments. Clearly it wasn't LCs since their current plan is to go ahead

mirrorwall14

Rosita wrote: »

I would assume there'll be guidelines as to how these will be arrived at. In fact it's likely the union will look for minimal teacher involvement.

Junior Certs in this case. Obviously not doing this for LCs.

rainbowtrout

pandoraj09 wrote: »

I heard on Pat Kenny just there that Colm Cregan, an Inspector in the DES, has come up with a formula that could be used to arrive at a grade for students. Think its using 5th year Xmas and Summer grade, Mocks in 6th year with some mention of project work, I didn't hear it all. Of course it wouldn't suit those just repeating one or two subjects. I've an adult repeating Irish for Primary teaching, many years out of school. Her only option would be to wait until next year, unless there was also the option of sitting a Leaving Cert exam.

He used to work for DES, he now works in Dubai.

Nobody (to the best of my knowledge) from the DES/SEC comments on the exams in the media. They're like the CIA.:pac:

The face of education in the media is Joe McHugh. That's his job.


And Colm Cregan is a tool if he thinks mocks are a reasonable way of assessing for LC given how many cheat in them.

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Emma O'Kelly on one o clock news, exams are to go ahead as planned. Today's meeting is discussing running of exams, transportation etc.

As it should be, and as it was when it was announced on Good Friday.

Now if the Indo and the Times could stop printing shite about predicted grades the world would be a much better place.

Purefrank128

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Calm down yourself. That was for our junior certs. I forgot like one word in the post which I would have thought have been a given since I was mentioning summer assessments. Clearly it wasn't LCs since their current plan is to go ahead

This thread is called "Deferred State Exams". The JC has not been deferred, it has been cancelled. That is why people took you to mean LC, also the fact that everyone else is posting about the potential use of house exams to generate a grade for LC students.

Thanks for clearing things up. I'm glad you were referring to JC, not LC.

Schools should do whatever they think is best to assess their third years. Also with first years, second years, fifth years. Maybe you need another thread for that.

Rosita

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Emma O'Kelly on one o clock news, exams are to go ahead as planned. Today's meeting is discussing running of exams, transportation etc.

I wouldn't reach much into that. July 29th will be the default position until it isn't. In the same way that there were definitely no plans to close the schools until they did. Her piece on the RTÉ website published about an hour ago was far more equivocal about the prospects.

mirrorwall14

Purefrank128 wrote: »

This thread is called "Deferred State Exams". The JC has not been deferred, it has been cancelled. That is why people took you to mean LC, also the fact that everyone else is posting about the potential use of house exams to generate a grade for LC students.

Thanks for clearing things up. I'm glad you were referring to JC, not LC.

Schools should do whatever they think is best to assess their third years. Also with first years, second years, fifth years. Maybe you need another thread for that.

As per the mod comment in the first post of the thread its about the state exams. I don't think the junior cert was cancelled at the time it was started

Purefrank128

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

As per the mod comment in the first post of the thread its about the state exams. I don't think the junior cert was cancelled at the time it was started

The JC was cancelled at the same time that the LC was deferred.

bren2001

joe40 wrote: »

This is just a thought, but something I'm curious about.
Presumably pupils themselves apply for courses that they would consider to be "within reach" based on previous year results so there is a certain amount of self selection.
I wonder if every pupil was just awarded their 1st or 2nd CAO choice, what would the figures be like.
Basically how over subscribed are courses every year?
Would it be possible make the places available as a once off.
For highly subscribed courses like medicine,. Interviews could be used. This is already part of the selection process in UK colleges.

It depends on the course. For Arts (and others) there is certainly an argument to make but I would expect a strong pushback from Universities on this.

For STEM-based courses with practicals involved. I'm struggling to see a way numbers could be increased, if anything, numbers will decrease. The capacity of labs to run practicals etc. may/will be drastically reduced due to social distancing. The other factor is, how do you ensure the student meets the matriculation? e.g. minimum maths level etc.

ethical wrote: »

I imagine that there will be more places available in 3rd level this year for Irish students due to the fact that overseas students will be less due to the pandemic.

I think this is slightly overblown in the media. The majority of courses in Ireland, at undergraduate, are filled with Irish students. There will not be that many extra places available due to the fall in international students as a lot of these are at postgraduate level. There are some exceptions like medicine.

There still will be some international students next year taking classes remotely. Most universities have some initiative running where students won't need to be in Dublin until 2021 for examination purposes.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

I wouldn't reach much into that. July 29th will be the default position until it isn't. In the same way that there were definitely no plans to close the schools until they did. Her piece on the RTÉ website published about an hour ago was far more equivocal about the prospects.

The number of new cases is dropping every day. The numbers were in the 200s in three of the last five days. I would expect it to dip below 200 by the end of this week or at least sometime next week. If numbers continue to fall to minimal levels then there is no reason (aside from logistics) that the exams can't run.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The number of new cases is dropping every day. The numbers were in the 200s in three of the last five days. I would expect it to dip below 200 by the end of this week or at least sometime next week. If numbers continue to fall to minimal levels then there is no reason (aside from logistics) that the exams can't run.

Why wouldn't numbers be dropping with most people staying at home most of the time, widespread social distancing, and an inability to do the level of testing that they've promised? If levels weren't dropping it'd be astonishing. In fact the slowness of the drop is difficult to explain.

But people saying that 29 July is the only show in town is quite another matter. There are still lots of opinions and this is still well up for grabs I reckon.