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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]
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CrabRevolution wrote: »I'd imagine the higher stakes (i.e. the predicted grade is the final grade; no confirmatory exam like in the UK) in Ireland will result in even more overestimates than in the UK.
No matter how strong their integrity and honesty, I think every teacher tasked with picking their student's grades will know in the back of their head that by giving honest marks they could be condemning their entire class to not getting courses they deserve because there are teachers out there giving overinflated marks.
I can also see a lot of people choosing to do the LC exam if it becomes an option. They'll have nothing to lose as presumably they get to pick the better of the results (predicted vs. exam).
PG could get interesting going into the future. I can see enormous numbers of 500+ point students this year. I know this year they are only up against each other so it could cancel out. But say someone uses those points in a year or 2 when things are back to normal. With the inflated predicted grade, do they not have an advantage over those who sat the exam that year?
Also, 2 points out of 15 is a 13.3% error. That's a pretty enormous margin of error, especially for something as important as LC points.
It could also be argued that the fact that we have six/seven teachers (as compared to 3 in UK) with their own separate predictions leaves it less likely that the final points total could be badly skewed by one ‘bad’ predicted result.
Of course we will want the best results for our students but as professionals we would also be aware that we could also be depriving another student of a deserved place by inflating grades. Safeguards could be put in place and results could be compared with Junior Certificate performance as an independent check – consultation with all relevant parties should make it possible to formulate an acceptable policy!
I accept your second last point is highly valid and that to compare and use the results of this year with other year groups could be problematic.0 -
Predictive grades based on ‘guessing’ is a non - runner.
Predictive grades based on recorded results is possible.
For every teacher complaining about ‘hard’ marking of the the mocks, another will say the mark was too generous.
The only possibility is using previous results and demanding each student sign some sort of legal document in which they agree to accept the final result.0 -
Like many of you here I feel Predictive Grading would be a disaster. Teachers know exactly why it would be but people that aren’t teachers don’t seem to fully grasp why it would be such a difficult thing to have to do and how using previous grades is not fair (cheating in mocks, different standard of 5th Year exams etc). Not to mention students that changed levels after the mocks, they would have no previous grades in their new level.
Surely it would turn into a joke of epic proportions with the grind type schools potentially giving loads of high grades as they need them to attract future students.
I suppose we just have to wait approximately 4 weeks and we’ll have a good idea.
Huge issues with it but what is a better alternative? I cannot think of another but I hope the DEC can.0 -
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Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »Predictive grades based on ‘guessing’ is a non - runner.
Predictive grades based on recorded results is possible.
For every teacher complaining about ‘hard’ marking of the the mocks, another will say the mark was too generous.
The only possibility is using previous results and demanding each student sign some sort of legal document in which they agree to accept the final result.
That last point is impossible. You can’t, and shouldn’t, sign something and put yourself in a position to see what happens.
Here’s what I’m wondering, why were they put back to August? If they thought they could run them safely in August then why not June? It was to buy time? Well, nothing will have changed by August.
Nobody has a clue what’s going to happen.0 -
How about running the exams as planne in August.
No one knows what the situation will be in August - to quote Dr Holohan when asked about an event in late August -
“All I would be doing is speculating in relation to where we would be at the end of August.”
How can SEC plan in these circumstances and how is it fair to ask or expect our students to prepare and perform to the best of their ability under these conditions?0 -
Take about making a complete balls of something!
Why, in all of the histronic media coverage is there no representation from the student cohert who just want to get on with it?
And dont get me started on all of the talking heads offering their opinions who clearly dont have a ****ing clue.
Yes, of course there should be a better way to judge the senior cycle, but there isn't one so you cant just invent one now!!
Asking the colleges to review the CAO applications and checking the numbers to see if by doing some jiggery pokery can they fit everyone into their first choices makes more sense than this predictive grading bolloxology people keep coming out with.
Exams could have and should have happened as timetabled.
They now need to happen in July. The uncertainty the media keep crying about is being created by the Government still talking about it. You've declared the date Minister not just tell everyone to get on with it, uncertainty over.0 -
I wonder would it be possible to run a slimmed down leaving cert. Maybe every pupil just sit 3/4subjects perhaps Maths, English and 2 other options To be chosen by pupil.
Far from ideal but would give some sort of objective assessment.
I also think some certain University courses eg medicine, nursing primary teaching could also use interview to select candidates. Maybe fairer than simply LC points.
This is quite common for many UK courses0 -
brighterspark wrote: »No one knows what the situation will be in August - to quote Dr Holohan when asked about an event in late August -
“All I would be doing is speculating in relation to where we would be at the end of August.”
How can SEC plan in these circumstances and how is it fair to ask or expect our students to prepare and perform to the best of their ability under these conditions?
They could have run in June, the situation wont be worse in August so they absolutely could and should run. They need to just be definitive that they WILL run and they you put an immediate stop to all of this nonsense.
Dr Holohans job is to offer an opinion, its the Governments job to take his and others opinions and make decisions.0 -
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Take about making a complete balls of something!
Why, in all of the histronic media coverage is there no representation from the student cohert who just want to get on with it?
And dont get me started on all of the talking heads offering their opinions who clearly dont have a ****ing clue.
Yes, of course there should be a better way to judge the senior cycle, but there isn't one so you cant just invent one now!!
Asking the colleges to review the CAO applications and checking the numbers to see if by doing some jiggery pokery can they fit everyone into their first choices makes more sense than this predictive grading bolloxology people keep coming out with.
Exams could have and should have happened as timetabled.
They now need to happen in July. The uncertainty the media keep crying about is being created by the Government still talking about it. You've declared the date Minister not just tell everyone to get on with it, uncertainty over.
Can't be done, it's that simple. No point in spending resources in investigating can it be done, it simply cannot.
Predictive grades are problematic, I don't see many who are not parents/students advocating for them. I struggle to see a better plan B but certainly hope one emerges or the exams just go ahead.0 -
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I do wonder how many of the students calling for predicted grades actually think it's a fair idea, and how many of them just don't want to do the exams. Don't get me wrong, if you told me in 6th year that not doing the exams was potentially an option, I would have been delighted. But I do think there is a real case from students and parents of thinking that it's too much to ask of them to actually put in the work (which they would still be doing at this time if the LC was going ahead as normal) and to "cut them a break." The LC is no walk in the park, I myself had a nervous breakdown in 6th year, but there is a cynical part of me thinking students are just looking for the easy way out.0
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I wonder would it be possible to run a slimmed down leaving cert. Maybe every pupil just sit 3/4subjects perhaps Maths, English and 2 other options To be chosen by pupil.
I have heard this suggested many times and am always amused at the suggestion of Maths and English. These are the two exams with the most sits in the entire Leaving Cert. If those two could be organised under social distancing the rest would be relatively easy as numbers would get much smaller quickly. No real reason for a slimmed down LC then.0 -
They could have run in June,
Shure they could have, but is everyone willing to accept the probability of a couple of students dying or passing it on?the situation wont be worse in August so they absolutely could and should run.
Well you're speculating there.
We hope it won't be worse.
We assume it will be better.
How much better does it need to be?
Would you accept some deaths as a result of a student passing on the virus?
At the moment nearly 7% of those who caught it died. And sure, the vast majority were over 20 years of age. But it's not so much about how many students will die but maybe how many more transmissions will be kicked off. One politician was saying that students were more likely to die in a traffic accident so we should hold the LC no bother. He forgot the simple fact that you don't pass on a traffic accident on to more people by being in contact with them.They need to just be definitive that they WILL run and they you put an immediate stop to all of this nonsense.
Dr Holohans job is to offer an opinion, its the Governments job to take his and others opinions and make decisions.
Well plan A is running them in August, the government haven't diverged from that (yet) , so by not diverging they are being definitive about their intention.0 -
Realistically the usual exams cannot be held, and those that think it are kidding themselves. It’s clear the disease doesn’t impact younger people as much, but there is still cases where young people have died. Taking away from the students, you will need a large amount of invigilators to oversee the exams, also putting these at risk. Do we expect these students and invigilators to self isolate throughout the exams to prevent another breakout?
I’m not advocating for predicted grades and as I’m sure the vast majority of students and parents aren’t. It’s become apparent the exams can’t take place in usual format, but this delaying and half arsed announcements so far have been a disgrace, Fianna Fails loud statements haven’t helped either!! Speaking as a parent of a leaving cert I can see the anxiety and stress my child is going through and it’s just not fair. It’s time they got their act together and made a definitive call!!!0 -
Yeah some of them are, and thats my point, does seem to be those ones that the media latches on to.I do wonder how many of the students calling for predicted grades actually think it's a fair idea, and how many of them just don't want to do the exams. Don't get me wrong, if you told me in 6th year that not doing the exams was potentially an option, I would have been delighted. But I do think there is a real case from students and parents of thinking that it's too much to ask of them to actually put in the work (which they would still be doing at this time if the LC was going ahead as normal) and to "cut them a break." The LC is no walk in the park, I myself had a nervous breakdown in 6th year, but there is a cynical part of me thinking students are just looking for the easy way out.
I have a LC whos bulling to do it and diligently working away towards the new date. He well pissed off when everyone got 100% in the mocks because he had worked hard at them and realises for those who have ambition its a competitive event.0 -
I do wonder how many of the students calling for predicted grades actually think it's a fair idea, and how many of them just don't want to do the exams. Don't get me wrong, if you told me in 6th year that not doing the exams was potentially an option, I would have been delighted. But I do think there is a real case from students and parents of thinking that it's too much to ask of them to actually put in the work (which they would still be doing at this time if the LC was going ahead as normal) and to "cut them a break." The LC is no walk in the park, I myself had a nervous breakdown in 6th year, but there is a cynical part of me thinking students are just looking for the easy way out.
There is no doubt that there would be a particular cohort who would be happy with that. In fairness though there would be a lot who would prepare well and would not like the uncertainty of predictive grading. However, the people you mention are generally airbrushed out of consideration in the same way that you don't hear them interviewed on the news during teacher strikes to say how delighted they are to have a day off.0 -
I do wonder how many of the students calling for predicted grades actually think it's a fair idea, and how many of them just don't want to do the exams. Don't get me wrong, if you told me in 6th year that not doing the exams was potentially an option, I would have been delighted. But I do think there is a real case from students and parents of thinking that it's too much to ask of them to actually put in the work (which they would still be doing at this time if the LC was going ahead as normal) and to "cut them a break." The LC is no walk in the park, I myself had a nervous breakdown in 6th year, but there is a cynical part of me thinking students are just looking for the easy way out.
And whatever grades are offered, there is zero responsibility for that grade on the student. Cue 'she only gave me a D because she hates me.....'0 -
It’s become apparent the exams can’t take place in usual format, but this delaying and half arsed announcements so far have been a disgrace, Fianna Fails loud statements haven’t helped either!! Speaking as a parent of a leaving cert I can see the anxiety and stress my child is going through and it’s just not fair. It’s time they got their act together and made a definitive call!!!
The government would argue that they have made a definitive call - LC to start on 29th July. Yes, they have lacked detail around that which has undermined the message but they have given a definitive date. It's ironic that you would criticise Fianna Fáil's loud statement because all they are really doing is what you are doing and calling for clarity and a 'definitive' decision that people might actually believe. It's kinda what an opposition party is supposed to do...….oppose and challenge the government.0 -
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Purefrank128 wrote: »People need to calm down a lot and not get ahead of themselves. Currently, the idea of predictive grades being used has no standing with the SEC, DES or government.
Now if only the leader of said government had the opportunity to say that on the late late show recently, I mean the whole country would have heard it and it would have put this whole thing to rest...0 -
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0505/1136653-key-representatives-to-meet-over-leaving-cert-plans/
Looks like the sit and wait approach has been abandoned
As has the “proposal”0 -
The government would argue that they have made a definitive call - LC to start on 29th July. Yes, they have lacked detail around that which has undermined the message but they have given a definitive date. It's ironic that you would criticise Fianna Fáil's loud statement because all they are really doing is what you are doing and calling for clarity and a 'definitive' decision that people might actually believe. It's kinda what an opposition party is supposed to do...….oppose and challenge the government.
If the government made a definitive call then the idea of predictive grades wouldn’t be discussed. Leo Varadkar said ‘by hook or by crook’ we will have exams. Then the government said that the exams were postponed until 29th July BUT a decision would be made the first week in June relating this and a timetable would be formed. I understand that they couldn’t make a call as they could not predict the future, but their persistent view that it would take place in its normal format and now the idea of predictive grades really is not fair on students.
I understand your point that Fianna Fails job is to oppose the government but was it necessary to call for a complete cancellation with no extensive research into alternatives. It just wasn’t necessary and honestly added to the stress and anxiety. Even Michael Martin on prime time referred to it as ‘Thomas Byrnes Statement’ almost distancing himself from it. While other parties are calling for clarity and a decision which is fair and isn’t riling students up as much!0 -
I’m not advocating for predicted grades and as I’m sure the vast majority of students and parents aren’t. It’s become apparent the exams can’t take place in usual format, but this delaying and half arsed announcements so far have been a disgrace, Fianna Fails loud statements haven’t helped either!! Speaking as a parent of a leaving cert I can see the anxiety and stress my child is going through and it’s just not fair. It’s time they got their act together and made a definitive call!!!
They came out with a plan. Exams starting the 29th of July and timetable to be published in June - we'll get back to you then with more detail, in the meantime keep studying. The media have whipped this into a frenzy on a daily basis, so much so that people post those headlines here every morning instead of just ignoring them.
Not sure how they can make a definitive call. We can't make the 29th of July come any sooner.
I'd say there are a huge number of logistical details to work out. Coronavirus/social distancing is not the biggest logistical detail.
The SEC need to work out how many examiners they need to supervise the exams and if they can recruit that number of examiners. If they don't have enough to supervise then the exams can't take place. Or they have to look at some format of a staggered schedule to allow them to take place. Or they have to look at hiring large sports halls, conference rooms/function rooms in hotels where they can have a larger number of people and less supervisors required per head. I'm making the broad assumption that the budget is relatively unlimited to allow this to happen and get as many Leaving Certs out the door as is possible.
If you move exams to an alternative centre, then they might have to consider rerouting buses to bring those students who avail of the school transport scheme to and from their exams. Or even hire more buses to allow for social distancing. It woudn't be necessary in every instance, a lot of schools have a large sports hall which could be used for exams. A lot of smaller towns might have a suitable venue within walking distance of the school. Either way, that involves negotiations with Bus Eireann etc.
If all of that works, then you have to factor in marking time. I'd presume the time between sitting the exam and starting the marking might be shortened to keep things moving. Do you hire extra examiners to speed up the marking or do you keep to the same time frame as normal? Will all the JC examiners who normally mark be willing to move to LC? Some won't. What impact will this have on the return to school? Can't be in two places at once. Marking is a full time job. Can't sit and mark all day and also be at school teaching.
If there is a time line for all of that, then the third level colleges have to be informed as to when the SEC would expect to have results, so then they can plan when to start their first year cohort.
There are a huge number of factors which have to be worked out and it will have a domino effect on the other factors. Expecting a detailed plan just because the media are demanding it so they have something to write about will just mean if Joe McHugh et al cave to populism that we do get a half arsed plan that won't work properly.
Logistically the exams can work in the same way that shops and businesses do at the moment. There's no reason that when students enter an exam hall that the answer booklets can't be on the tables, or if that is considered an issue that supervisors can't be issued with masks. Two students normally sign the packet of papers at the start to say they weren't opened beforehand. No reason you can't leave the packet on a desk, stand back and allow them to sign the packet, having sanitised their hands first of course. Same kind of system could be used for handing back papers at the end of the exam.
There are ways and means to do everything, it's better to leave those that are running the exams work out all these niggles rather than rush out a half arsed plan now.0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »They came out with a plan. Exams starting the 29th of July and timetable to be published in June - we'll get back to you then with more detail, in the meantime keep studying. The media have whipped this into a frenzy on a daily basis, so much so that people post those headlines here every morning instead of just ignoring them.
Not sure how they can make a definitive call. We can't make the 29th of July come any sooner.
I'd say there are a huge number of logistical details to work out. Coronavirus/social distancing is not the biggest logistical detail.
The SEC need to work out how many examiners they need to supervise the exams and if they can recruit that number of examiners. If they don't have enough to supervise then the exams can't take place. Or they have to look at some format of a staggered schedule to allow them to take place. Or they have to look at hiring large sports halls, conference rooms/function rooms in hotels where they can have a larger number of people and less supervisors required per head. I'm making the broad assumption that the budget is relatively unlimited to allow this to happen and get as many Leaving Certs out the door as is possible.
If you move exams to an alternative centre, then they might have to consider rerouting buses to bring those students who avail of the school transport scheme to and from their exams. Or even hire more buses to allow for social distancing. It woudn't be necessary in every instance, a lot of schools have a large sports hall which could be used for exams. A lot of smaller towns might have a suitable venue within walking distance of the school. Either way, that involves negotiations with Bus Eireann etc.
If all of that works, then you have to factor in marking time. I'd presume the time between sitting the exam and starting the marking might be shortened to keep things moving. Do you hire extra examiners to speed up the marking or do you keep to the same time frame as normal? Will all the JC examiners who normally mark be willing to move to LC? Some won't. What impact will this have on the return to school? Can't be in two places at once. Marking is a full time job. Can't sit and mark all day and also be at school teaching.
If there is a time line for all of that, then the third level colleges have to be informed as to when the SEC would expect to have results, so then they can plan when to start their first year cohort.
There are a huge number of factors which have to be worked out and it will have a domino effect on the other factors. Expecting a detailed plan just because the media are demanding it so they have something to write about will just mean if Joe McHugh et al cave to populism that we do get a half arsed plan that won't work properly.
Logistically the exams can work in the same way that shops and businesses do at the moment. There's no reason that when students enter an exam hall that the answer booklets can't be on the tables, or if that is considered an issue that supervisors can't be issued with masks. Two students normally sign the packet of papers at the start to say they weren't opened beforehand. No reason you can't leave the packet on a desk, stand back and allow them to sign the packet, having sanitised their hands first of course. Same kind of system could be used for handing back papers at the end of the exam.
There are ways and means to do everything, it's better to leave those that are running the exams work out all these niggles rather than rush out a half arsed plan now.
You say it like they’ve just realised that the virus is serious? Since the schools closed on the 13 March has it not been clear that realistically they wouldn’t open again and the LC would be in doubt. Granted I understand in the early days we did not know where we were headed with the virus and how serious it would be but could all of them logistics not have been worked on behind the scenes since then. Joe McHugh said on an Instagram livestream this students that they have a plan A,B,C,D and E, well where are these plans? It just looks like they kept kicking the can down the road and now the time has come to make a decision and they don’t know what to do.
“it's better to leave those that are running the exams work out all these niggles rather than rush out a half arsed plan now.” Every plan since the start of this pandemic from the department of education relating to junior and leaving cert has been half arsed! I would go as far to say as there hasn’t been a plan since the start! This constant denial that the exams can take place in their normal format has got us to where we are and it’s time to either bring out this ‘masterplan’ they’ve been working on to run these exams or cancel0 -
Joe McHugh said on an Instagram livestream this students that they have a plan A,B,C,D and E, well where are these plans?
They're in a filing cabinet.
Seriously though you hardly expect Joe to come out explaining plan A,A1,B,B1,C,C1,C2,C3,D,E,E1 etc. that would be a recipe for disaster.It just looks like they kept kicking the can down the road and now the time has come to make a decision and they don’t know what to do.
What do you not understand. The decision has been made to go with Plan A. Exams start of August. That is what they can now plan for.“it's better to leave those that are running the exams work out all these niggles rather than rush out a half arsed plan now.” Every plan since the start of this pandemic from the department of education relating to junior and leaving cert! I would go as far to say as there hasn’t been a plan since the start!
What 'Start' are you referring to? December 2019, in which case no, there wasn't a plan back then. I do honestly think that planning was in place Starting that week of MArch 9th though. Don't forget there was even doubt that schools would be closed and that everything would be all hunky dory a few days prior to that.This constant denial that the exams can take place in their normal format has got us to where we are and it’s time to either bring out this ‘masterplan’ they’ve been working on to run these exams or cancel
What do you want to know about the masterplan. From a average student's perspective you study and get ready to go into school on that date. Those with additional needs will take a lot of planning for.
I honestly do think the curve can be flattened in 2 1/2 months and we can roll with it.
It's just the usual Leaving Cert frenzy which the media make money off of has exploded tenfold.
If you have a son or daughter doing the Leaving Cert tell them just keep the head down and 'literally' stay the course.
Have you noticed there's never any media stories of students who are just plodding along through the exam papers, quietly preparing for the Leaving Certificate exam in August! Nearly every interview is 'how do you feel about predictive grading'? FFS just leave them alone.0 -
You say it like they’ve just realised that the virus is serious? Since the schools closed on the 13 March has it not been clear that realistically they wouldn’t open again and the LC would be in doubt. Granted I understand in the early days we did not know where we were headed with the virus and how serious it would be but could all of them logistics not have been worked on behind the scenes since then. Joe McHugh said on an Instagram livestream this students that they have a plan A,B,C,D and E, well where are these plans? It just looks like they kept kicking the can down the road and now the time has come to make a decision and they don’t know what to do.
“it's better to leave those that are running the exams work out all these niggles rather than rush out a half arsed plan now.” Every plan since the start of this pandemic from the department of education relating to junior and leaving cert! I would go as far to say as there hasn’t been a plan since the start! This constant denial that the exams can take place in their normal format has got us to where we are and it’s time to either bring out this ‘masterplan’ they’ve been working on to run these exams or cancel
As a country we have never been in this situation before. I'm going to take a wild guess that in all the back up plans the SEC have on file for major problems that happen during the exams each year, that 'running exams through a global pandemic' probably wasn't one of them.
And I'm not saying it like they've just realised it was serious. Pandemics follow patterns, there's a reason we keep hearing the phrase 'flatten the curve'. It's why the NPHET have people to work out best and worst case scenarios and everything in between.
A virus will follow a pattern, but it's not clear at the start how fast that pattern will emerge. Or where the virus will take hold. We could have been lucky and had few cases - but that didn't happen. It was a stupid idea for Cheltenham to go ahead - and for so many people to travel to it. It was a stupid idea for thousands of Italians to travel to Dublin for on a weekend where a match was cancelled. It was ridiculous seeing people packed into pubs in Templebar when we were already starting to shut down the country. But all of those things happened. Had they not happened, we may have had a smaller spread of the virus and lockdown may have lifted sooner. If people hadn't been more compliant with lockdown we could have seen a higher number of cases. A lot of businesses voluntarily closed before they were ordered to. It was impossible to predict how much the virus would spread and how long it would take to pass the peak in the early days. Therefore it's impossible to put a plan in place that is written in stone.
However to give them their due, we were told that the virus would probably peak in mid April, and it did. It has continued to decline over the last couple of weeks. Remember, realistically we only have China and maybe South Korea as models for how the spread and decline of the virus pans out. China are reporting single digit figures <5 for the last week or so. They were in lockdown for 10 weeks. If people follow the guidelines issued, now that a clearer pattern has emerged, then it is possible to start planning with more confidence and more detail... however, we are due to start coming out of this lockdown in 12 days time. We don't know if people will continue to follow social distancing guidelines or behave like complete fcukwits. If people comply we should see a further decline in the virus, if not we could start to see it increase again and then other plans (including those for the LC might have to be considered).
If plans A, B, C, D and E were revealed early on, we would never hear the end of it from everyone and their dog on which plan they think would work best without any heed to the fairness or merit of each plan when it might still be possible to run the LC in a relatively normal format.
You're complaining that there's no clear plan, but if Joe McHugh said 'Fcuk it, we are running the LC come hell or highwater in August - that's the plan, like it or lump it' and then he had to scrap that plan, you'd be complaining that he didn't stick to the plan.
We got a national roadmap last week to try and get back to normal. It has a timeline - but is still subject to change. I'm not sure how many people have taken heed of that bit. The Leaving Cert is no different.0 -
If the government made a definitive call then the idea of predictive grades wouldn’t be discussed. Leo Varadkar said ‘by hook or by crook’ we will have exams. Then the government said that the exams were postponed until 29th July BUT a decision would be made the first week in June relating this and a timetable would be formed. I understand that they couldn’t make a call as they could not predict the future, but their persistent view that it would take place in its normal format and now the idea of predictive grades really is not fair on students.
I understand your point that Fianna Fails job is to oppose the government but was it necessary to call for a complete cancellation with no extensive research into alternatives. It just wasn’t necessary and honestly added to the stress and anxiety. Even Michael Martin on prime time referred to it as ‘Thomas Byrnes Statement’ almost distancing himself from it. While other parties are calling for clarity and a decision which is fair and isn’t riling students up as much!
The government did make a definitive call. They just didn't back it up with the sort of detail that would have given it credibility.
As for Byrne adding to the stress and anxiety? Varadker's statement recently which didn't refer to the LC was one which caused stress and anxiety. Byrne simply captured the mood. And if he hadn't, the teacher unions would probably not be n emergency session this evening. Clearly he reflected the general stress and anxiety rather than causing it.
The idea that a politician can only open his mouth after the sort of extensive research and negotiation with stakeholders necessary to provide an alternative plan to a Minister's is fanciful. An opposition spokesman can hardly summon union bosses and second-level students representative bodies so that he can open his mouth. That's just a recipe to keep dissenting voices in their place - by suggesting a lunatic level of research and planning before a government policy or plan can be challenged. Democratic countries don't work like that. Opposition challenges government and if the government's plans are not robust enough they crumble. I think that's healthy, not sure why it should be a source of irritation for people.0 -
I completely agree with you the media stories have been out of control, but has there really been clarity? I also never asked to see the plans but I am beginning to wonder do they even exist! The start I am referring to is the day the schools were asked to shut, there is people in jobs that have a responsibly to ensure these exams can be run safely and if not alternatives should be used. If you watch the health briefings you will see Tony Holohan has been asked multiple times since the start about state exams or schools and said that their advice was always available but they don’t make decisions. Put yourselves in their shoes, you can’t be expected to study towards an exam that may or not be held. That is unfair, end of.
Rainbowtrout- you say if McHugh came out and said “come hell or high water we are running the LC” and had to revert we would be complaining. Have you forgotten Varadkar “by hook or by crook” statement? That seems along those lines. As I’ve said before I understand when the virus was in early stages it was very hard to predict, but other countries (Uk,France) moved quickly to cancel their traditional exams
These are unprecedented times for everyone and the argument from the start has been “there’s people dying it’s only a leaving cert” and granted that was a valid argument. But now the time has come to make a call, with a clear plan as to how exams can be held from the point a student leaves a home to the point the student gets home.0 -
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Rainbowtrout- you say if McHugh came out and said “come hell or high water we are running the LC” and had to revert we would be complaining. Have you forgotten Varadkar “by hook or by crook” statement? That seems along those lines. As I’ve said before I understand when the virus was in early stages it was very hard to predict, but other countries (Uk,France) moved quickly to cancel their traditional exams
It was far easier for other countries to cancel their exams quickly as they have various forms of continuous assessment/coursework in place. We don't have anything like that to fall back on. It is the one major flaw of the Leaving Cert, in that it is all or nothing, so in this once in a lifetime event it is a huge problem.0
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