Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

rainbowtrout

Comer1 wrote: »

Absolutely not in my class! That would be such a disservice to the ones who engaged. My video tutorials will still be available and they can look those up, otherwise they can fook off!

You won't have a leg to stand on with that attitude next year. Because while you might know well that some just didn't bother to engage you can't prove it, and there will be students in the cohort that genuinely couldn't.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It'll still be our fault in the end.

The Irish times headline shows is slanting it that way already
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-voice-concerns-about-health-implications-if-leaving-cert-goes-ahead-1.4246311?mode=amp

I can see the headlines already
“Teachers unions cancel leaving cert”
“Teaches refuse to supervise leaving cert”
“Won’t somebody think of the children “

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You won't have a leg to stand on with that attitude next year. Because while you might know well that some just didn't bother to engage you can't prove it, and there will be students in the cohort that genuinely couldn't.

So why are we bothering to do anything if we are going to have to do it all again next year anyway? 3 months is a serious chunk of time. And unless they take stuff off certain courses, difficult choices will have to be made.

amacca

Comer1 wrote: »

The LC might be brutal, but at least it's the same level of brutality for all.

Strange....i never viewd it as brutal at all as a student doing it or as an adult later, yes it was stressful but so was standing up on stage public speaking or trying to get a girlfriend and failing or avoiding being bullied by fighting back or being saddled with too much work in a job or watching people close to me die

I'm not really equating these but how did so many generations do something like a leaving without it being such a drama .... I don't remember anyone giving much of a toss how I was feeling when I did the LC...I don't remember many of my classmates talking about undue stress or showing signs.....we didn't like it, we were glad when it was over but it wasn't the death of us.

I kind of thought it was character building to work for and get over a hurdle like it.....then later in life I noticed a lot of situations that were similar in that you had to prepare and perform to be successful + a lot of directly analogous situations 8n addition....professional exams, college exams, exams for entry into civil service, banks, consultancies, pilots license exams etc etc

To my mind at least a lot if employers are still looking for a person that can accept a challenge, prepare for it and work their way through it to the best of their abilities.

I do think the uncertainty (whether avoidable or not - I think it's probably unavoidable given unprecedented situation but perhaps could have been handled better 8n recent times) does probably make it "brutal" on this year's cohort however.......its ha5d to motivate yourself to try score a goal when there is uncertainty (no matter who's fault it is) over the positioning of the goalposts

And I do remember look8ng forward to the end of June when it would be over and using that as a motivator of sorts

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

So why are we bothering to do anything if we are going to have to do it all again next year anyway? 3 months is a serious chunk of time. And unless they take stuff off certain courses, difficult choices will have to be made.

Not saying you have to do it all again next year. I will be continuing in September (or whenever) where I finish up in May, but if you are doing revision towards the end of LC next year assuming we are some way back to normality and a student is asking if you could explain a concept, I'm not sure that 'look at the videos on teams' will be considered acceptable as a stock answer.

Mardy Bum

amacca wrote: »

Strange....i never viewd it as brutal at all as a student doing it or as an adult later, yes it was stressful but so was standing up on stage public speaking or trying to get a girlfriend and failing or avoiding being bullied by fighting back or being saddled with too much work in a job or watching people close to me die

I'm not really equating these but how did so many generations do something like a leaving without it being such a drama .... I don't remember anyone giving much of a toss how I was feeling when I did the LC...I don't remember many of my classmates talking about undue stress or showing signs.....we didn't like it, we were glad when it was over but it wasn't the death of us.

I kind of thought it was character building to work for and get over a hurdle like it.....then later in life I noticed a lot of situations that were similar in that you had to prepare and perform to be successful + a lot of directly analogous situations 8n addition....professional exams, college exams, exams for entry into civil service, banks, consultancies, pilots license exams etc etc

To my mind at least a lot if employers are still looking for a person that can accept a challenge, prepare for it and work their way through it to the best of their abilities.

I do think the uncertainty (whether avoidable or not - I think it's probably unavoidable given unprecedented situation but perhaps could have been handled better 8n recent times) does probably make it "brutal" on this year's cohort however.......its ha5d to motivate yourself to try score a goal when there is uncertainty (no matter who's fault it is) over the positioning of the goalposts

And I do remember look8ng forward to the end of June when it would be over and using that as a motivator of sorts

The wellbeing nonsense being spouted over the last few years is nothing more than corporate speak that has infected the education system.

The ever increasing talk of anxiety is simply students inability to self regulate and the consequences that arise from it.

If there is one thing the education system needs to focus on it is the transfer of responsibility from teachers to students.

Rosita

Comer1 wrote: »

Absolutely not in my class! That would be such a disservice to the ones who engaged. My video tutorials will still be available and they can look those up, otherwise they can fook off!

Good idea. I think video tutorials will play a big role next year. I'd expect we might see students (certainly non-exam classes) face to face only once a week or even once a fortnight with the timetable restrictions that are likely to be ahead of us. Students will need to embrace this reality too.

Mrsmum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would say that most teachers can tell you exactly which students have problems engaging because of their home lives/lack of internet access, laptop etc and which ones can't be bothered.

I could have predicted which ones in my fifth year class wouldn't engage when we shut down, the same ones who don't engage in the classroom. Got an email from school from the mother of one of these students yesterday saying that they have crap internet and wondering if we could send the work to her son by email. So seemingly she has waited until the first week of May to tell us this, seven weeks later. Yet her daughter is able to login and do her work on the same platform every day. I've seen the same lad spinning around town on a tractor. That's a mother covering for her son who hasn't done a tap and is now realising that he might have to do an end of year assessment and is trying to backpedal.

Our experience is that the ones who want to engage but can't because of home situations were pro-active and told us that, and the school were able to provide them with chromebooks or we emailed work where they couldn't access Teams. The ones who chose not to engage are a completely different story.

Teachers have their own little quirks too you know. I was speaking earlier about my son finding Maths difficult to learn without an actual teacher. Twice in the past week after spending hours doing or trying to do his maths,he posted questions to his teacher. Neither time got a response to date. He is great friends with a girl who is a fantastic student and who is the school's poster child, She could not do the question either. Posted her query to the teacher and within half an hour got an answer. Would you agree it was the teacher that was not fully engaging with my son.

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not saying you have to do it all again next year. I will be continuing in September (or whenever) where I finish up in May, but if you are doing revision towards the end of LC next year assuming we are some way back to normality and a student is asking if you could explain a concept, I'm not sure that 'look at the videos on teams' will be considered acceptable as a stock answer.

If there’s time for revision then great, I’ll have no issue doing that. I wonder will there be steps to shorten courses? Especially if this spills over into September.

Comer1

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not saying you have to do it all again next year. I will be continuing in September (or whenever) where I finish up in May, but if you are doing revision towards the end of LC next year assuming we are some way back to normality and a student is asking if you could explain a concept, I'm not sure that 'look at the videos on teams' will be considered acceptable as a stock answer.

Well of course I am going to do my normal revision as in every other year, I'm just not going to teach the stuff from scratch.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not saying you have to do it all again next year. I will be continuing in September (or whenever) where I finish up in May, but if you are doing revision towards the end of LC next year assuming we are some way back to normality and a student is asking if you could explain a concept, I'm not sure that 'look at the videos on teams' will be considered acceptable as a stock answer.

If we have strict social distancing in schools until there's a vaccine available I reckon the matter of what will be considered acceptable as a stock answer will change. I think a teacher having a video up in perpetuity explaining a concept is an invaluable resource.

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

The Irish times headline shows is slanting it that way already
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-voice-concerns-about-health-implications-if-leaving-cert-goes-ahead-1.4246311?mode=amp

I can see the headlines already
“Teachers unions cancel leaving cert”
“Teaches refuse to supervise leaving cert”
“Won’t somebody think of the children “

I wouldn't fret too much over that to be honest - the unions will have to have their say and some people won't like that. We'll have to live with the reaction.

However, it is true to say that the Irish Times Education Correspondent does not exactly challenge the Dept of Ed thinking. He was very pro-JC reform for example without questioning and lacking the on-the-ground classroom knowledge to have an informed scepticism on the matter. Then again, it is a weakness of journalists that they will not want to upset their contacts in these places so will, on matters of opinion, lean in one direction.

But as a teacher I wouldn't let a popularity contest dictate what is the right thing to do.

Treppen

Rosita wrote: »

I wouldn't fret too much over that to be honest - the unions will have to have their say and some people won't like that. We'll have to lie with the reaction.

However, it is true to say that the Irish Times Education Correspondent does not exactly challenge the Dept of Ed thinking. He was very pro-JC reform for example without questioning and lacking the on-the-ground classroom knowledge to have an informed scepticism on the matter. Then again, it is a weakness of journalists that they will not want to upset their contacts in these places so will, on matters of opinion, lean in one direction.

But as a teacher I wouldn't let a popularity contest dictate what is the right thing to do.

But you now have the 'vocal majority' along with the media vultures dictating the agenda and fighting against the August Exams, saying the right thing to do is predictive grading....

Ultimately, just like the 'right thing to do' Junior Cycle ... the %%%% sandwich of predictive grades will fall into the laps of teachers. And of course you can expect the very all knowing non-teachers will be dictating how teachers are to do it.
It'll be used as a tool to run down unions yet again.
Just watch the vitriol arrive "where were the unions",
"they sold us out"
"I'm not joining a union... but could you help me out with a question about my CID?".

Rosita

Treppen wrote: »

But you now have the 'vocal majority' along with the media vultures dictating the agenda and fighting against the August Exams, saying the right thing to do is predictive grading....

In fairness the idea of predictive grading and fighting against the August exams seems to have come from a meeting of stakeholders yesterday too. People will always have opinions and so be it. But the actual decision-makers, who presumably review the issues with sober consideration, appear to have gone this way too.

Icsics

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The wellbeing nonsense being spouted over the last few years is nothing more than corporate speak that has infected the education system.

The ever increasing talk of anxiety is simply students inability to self regulate and the consequences that arise from it.

If there is one thing the education system needs to focus on it is the transfer of responsibility from teachers to students.

Wellbeing is now a mini industry, given credence with the obscene amount of hours in JC.

deiseindublin

doc_17 wrote: »

3 months is a serious chunk of time. And unless they take stuff off certain courses, difficult choices will have to be made.

How will that even work though? There would be carnage if topics were taken away from exam and a slimmed down syllabus offered to LC 2021. I may have spent a month on a topic that got the chop and not covered something else.

I know it's stressful for this years LCs but I firmly believe that the 5th years are in a much worse position educationally. Also widening the education gap.

take everything

Just a small point but if the Leaving Cert is cancelled and the pubs open, which is not unlikely, you have to wonder about the values of this country.

bren2001

take everything wrote: »

Just a small point but if the Leaving Cert is cancelled and the pubs open, which is not unlikely, you have to wonder about the values of this country.

The LC running and pubs opening have not relationship. Pubs can implement social distancing and take other preventative measures on an establishment by establishment basis. Much harder for the DEC and SEC and would not indicate anything about the values of the country.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

Teachers have their own little quirks too you know. I was speaking earlier about my son finding Maths difficult to learn without an actual teacher. Twice in the past week after spending hours doing or trying to do his maths,he posted questions to his teacher. Neither time got a response to date. He is great friends with a girl who is a fantastic student and who is the school's poster child, She could not do the question either. Posted her query to the teacher and within half an hour got an answer. Would you agree it was the teacher that was not fully engaging with my son.

It possibly was. But have you followed up with that teacher to find out why he didn't get a response?

Rosita

take everything wrote: »

Just a small point but if the Leaving Cert is cancelled and the pubs open, which is not unlikely, you have to wonder about the values of this country.

The only obvious connection between the pubs opening and the Leaving Cert being cancelled is that presumably both decisions will be taken primarily with public health foremost in mind. Not sure it's anything to do with relative importance though I wouldn't dismiss the economic or social significance of the pub trade.

A more interesting question is how, if a fraction of a school's students can't be safely accommodated for the LC exam in August how on earth can schools open later that month when there'll be six times that amount of students and a full staff on site?

Shn99

Leo has said in the Dail statements and questions session that a conclusion will be drawn up by the end of the week

Random sample

deiseindublin wrote: »

How will that even work though? There would be carnage if topics were taken away from exam and a slimmed down syllabus offered to LC 2021. I may have spent a month on a topic that got the chop and not covered something else.

I know it's stressful for this years LCs but I firmly believe that the 5th years are in a much worse position educationally. Also widening the education gap.

I presume that could be taken care of with choice in the exam. I can see how that would work for my subjects.

Treppen

bren2001 wrote: »

The LC running and pubs opening have not relationship. Pubs can implement social distancing and take other preventative measures on an establishment by establishment basis. Much harder for the DEC and SEC and would not indicate anything about the values of the country.

I think he has a point. They've whipped themselves into a frenzy about the 'stressed out students not having clarity'. But when it comes to going back to work or creches, or church masses on 20th July it's all tumbleweed in the news. Nobody screaming for specific details there. It's all the usual LC hysteria .

Mardy Bum

People seem to be unaware that stories function like products for many media organisations. Some products sell much better and will get lots of buyers therefore it is wise to produce lots of them even if you have nothing to say. The stories need to be curated as well to appeal to the tastes of the reader. The Indo and Times are doing a magnificent job both in the hard news section and in the opinion pages of whipping up hysteria which then forces politicians into impossible positions.

ethical

Icsics wrote: »

Wellbeing is now a mini industry, given credence with the obscene amount of hours in JC.

But what of the WELLBEING of the Teacher,nothing,just a whole load of feckin box ticking..............................BOX TICKING is not looking after your staff and I would like Schools and ETBs to take note of this NOW!

Were you unlucky enough to be sent an email on mental wellbeing by your School ,ETB in the past few weeks?

Thats Your Wellbeing sorted ....box ticked!

Let us move on.......let us fill in that other fcukin form (which is your timetable) but ETBs have dressed it up as a
" Protection & Accountability" document....what a fcukin waste of resources!

Treppen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

People seem to be unaware that stories function like products for many media organisations. Some products sell much better and will get lots of buyers therefore it is wise to produce lots of them even if you have nothing to say. The stories need to be curated as well to appeal to the tastes of the reader. The Indo and Times are doing a magnificent job both in the hard news section and in the opinion pages of whipping up hysteria which then forces politicians into impossible positions.

I dunno Mardy, I think predictive grades was the plan all along. They stoked the flames every step of the way with their unofficial press releases and "senior sources at the department say...." news leaks to both Indo and Irish times. All the rest just swarmed when they heard about the feeding frenzy.

One thing is for sure though. They'll save a few Bob with no JC and LC this year.... Hmmm.... Might be a way to stave off all the education cutbacks next year if teachers are willing to Don the green Jersey.

bren2001

ethical wrote: »

But what of the WELLBEING of the Teacher,nothing,just a whole load of feckin box ticking..............................BOX TICKING is not looking after your staff and I would like Schools and ETBs to take note of this NOW!

Were you unlucky enough to be sent an email on mental wellbeing by your School ,ETB in the past few weeks?

Thats Your Wellbeing sorted ....box ticked!

Let us move on.......let us fill in that other fcukin form (which is your timetable) but ETBs have dressed it up as a
" Protection & Accountability" document....what a fcukin waste of resources!

In fairness, that's not something that's unique to teachers. I'd say it's almost universal. There's a lot of box ticking with well being.

Rosita

Treppen wrote: »

I think he has a point. They've whipped themselves into a frenzy about the 'stressed out students not having clarity'. But when it comes to going back to work or creches, or church masses on 20th July it's all tumbleweed in the news. Nobody screaming for specific details there. It's all the usual LC hysteria .

The difference is though that workplaces, creches, and churches are run by private organisations and it will ultimately be up to those organisations to provide suitable environments for people to use them safely - adapt or die I suppose. If they don't people can go elsewhere. The post-primary education system is run by government so they have direct responsibility for a monopoly public service. People do not have a choice but to use it and that naturally will get people looking for specifics especially when it's at such a critical juncture for them. Hysteria maybe but understandable I think.

Rosita

Mardy Bum wrote: »

People seem to be unaware that stories function like products for many media organisations. Some products sell much better and will get lots of buyers therefore it is wise to produce lots of them even if you have nothing to say. The stories need to be curated as well to appeal to the tastes of the reader. The Indo and Times are doing a magnificent job both in the hard news section and in the opinion pages of whipping up hysteria which then forces politicians into impossible positions.

For sure. I remember a few years back the Herald used to describe every hit as a Love/Hate style shooting just to get the words into their headline to sell the paper such was the popularity of the TV series. Fair enough I suppose, they are in the private sector and it's no different to "from €9.99" in a shop window.

But I still maintain that it was a lack of joined-up thinking in government and ill-advised Taoiseach/Ministers when near a microphone which really brought this upon them.

joe40

If exams can't be run August how are schools expected to be back in September.